Lifelongbender

Esmark refunds commitment fees for players who later make Pens Elite NB teams, so there is no risk for players to tryout at Esmark. It's right on their registration page.

This issue is magnified many times in girls' hockey, where especially at the older ages there are fewer players to fill out teams. Maybe now that so many organizations are trying to take girls seriously things will improve. Until the very recent past most girls stopped playing when they reached 14U or so because of the size differences between them and the boys that were trying to body check them. Hopefully now that organizations are trying to field decent teams girls will not quit the game and there will be more players at the older ages. There are more "Tier 1/Tier 2" girls organizations in the city than there are players who can actually play at that level. The competition for those girls is fierce and I have wondered from time to time if the players themselves are actually being served by this situation.

Not to mention that parking is in the back of the building, largely, and you have to walk around the building to the front, with essentially no sidewalks, to enter the building. A ridiculous choice for such a significant tournament.

Unfortunately there isn't another answer to this issue. These things do happen, and most organizations try to make allowances for it, but the only thing you can do is contact the coaches and the organization about it. I wouldn't pay anything until they tell you what they want you to do.

You can learn alot on half ice. But you also can't work on the all important zone entry, and since you have to carry a puck out of the zone rather than ice it on the PK, you can't really work on that very well either.

Just to be clear, the Aviators in particular are a very small organization. This year they had four total teams. It would have been five but unfortunately their 19U girls team folded at the beginning of the season.

Nobody seems to have noticed that Pittsburgh was well represented in the girls brackets. Pens Elite won 14U Tier 1, Rebellion won 14U Tier II, with Steel City Selects and Arctic Foxes coming in second and third. Steel City Selects won 19U Tier II, with Armstrong in second. A strong showing for Pittsburgh Girls' teams! Congratulations to the girls.

I don't think anyone has ever said these words before! LOL

Especially girls hockey. All hockey, but especially girls hockey.

For those interested, the registration link for the 2023 season of the PIHL Girls Hockey Division is open. Limited details about the league are available on the PIHL website (www.pihlhockey.com). You have to scroll down past all the playoff brackets! The direct link to the registrations is https://stat.zone/sz/a/activities/?o=20

This is absolutely not what the judge said. What the judge actually said was that he found Montour's arguments compelling, and that the ambiguity in the rules is also troubling to him. However, he noted that in order to issue an injunction there would have to evidence that irreparable harm would come to Montour, and that Pennsylvania case law has found that a loss of opportunity to play in a potential playoff season does not constitute irreparable harm. Because Montour was unable to show that irreparable harm would result from the situation due to the case law, the judge could not issue the requested injunction. Note though the first part - the judge did say that he found Montour's arguments for why they believed the player was eligible to play credible. Paragraph 1 says (in part) "the innocent and highly successful Montour Hockey Team". That doesn't sound like the comment of a man who thinks Montour would fail in court on the facts. He also notes that he wasn't commenting on the other prerequisites for issuing an injunction because case law is clear on the question of irreparable harm in this situation and further analysis is not required (this is common in these cases - because you have to show irreparable harm to get an injunction, judges often use that as the first test and stop their review if irreparable harm cannot be demonstrated). I'm thinking the judge here believes that Montour would win this issue in court, but he cannot order an injunction. My take is that PIHL needs to overhaul their rules regarding transfer students completely, and also needs to take a lesson on due diligence here. PIHL should be able to rely on organizations to fill their paperwork out completely and correctly, but the issues with ambiguity in the letter of the rules are undeniable, even if it is reasonably clear what the intent of the rules is. As I said before, it's not hard to imagine this happening with everyone acting in good faith, and misunderstanding the rules. It's clear, at least now, what PIHL intended when they wrote that rule, but the rule itself is fuzzy as written.

I used to volunteer at my local organization in a few roles myself. I know it's challenging to know all the rules but as an officer of the organization it's what you signed up for. You will note, if you actually read what I wrote, that I didn't attack any member of Montour's organization. My point was merely to explain that this issue itself is, in fact, covered explicitly in the training that the managers are required by PIHL to attend. Failing to attend the training doesn't mean you don't have to comply with the rules you'd have been trained on had you attended. It's my opinion that there are a few ways this could've happened with everyone acting on good faith, actually. For instance, although I think that the argument that the player isn't a transfer because they were never in high school before is contrary to both the intent and the letter of the rule as written, it isn't hard for me to imagine a group of people convincing themselves of that interpretation quite honestly just by having someone propose it and doing so convincingly. But that doesn't change the rules, or the responsibilities of the organization, or the right and proper consequences for failure to comply with the rules. It's unfortunate that this happened, no matter why it happened. You can continue to accuse people who are trying to have an honest conversation all you want - that's certainly increasingly the only point of every post ever made to this discussion forum, sadly. I understand that there are people - kids, really, and sadly so - being significantly hurt here. But making a mistake - if that's what happened here - may be an explanation, but it's not an excuse. You still have to get your job right or face the consequences.

Let me say first of all that in my view Montour shouldn't win. However long the kid has been playing, there is a clear violation of league rules here, and Montour's manager would've attended the training where this is covered quite extensively. Having said that, much depends upon how the court eventually views the question of whether the player is a transfer or not. It seems clear that the spirit of the league rules is that this player should be considered a transfer, but the rules aren't as clearly written as you'd like them to be, and now a court will be deciding whether the (in my view) silly argument that he was never in high school so this isn't a transfer is a good argument or not. And then going forward the rules will mean whatever the judge ends up saying they mean on this issue. If the court buys that argument, Montour will win because the entire premise of determining that the player was ineligible will be null.

Just my $0.02, but they may very well be filing a lawsuit simply to try to intimidate PIHL into changing their stance. They may not, in fact, believe that they have much of a case at all, but merely hope that the threat will make PIHL flinch. That's a very common strategy in many common situations, and it's even done by reputable attorneys. One reason to think this might be true is the simple fact that's been mentioned elsewhere here - they're not likely to get a hearing before the issue is already in the past. Also, Montour almost has to be getting this representation pro bono. It can't be worth the cost for representation in an actual lawsuit.

100%. Pittsburgh has some very good girls teams, but you'd never know unless you were in a position to know.

Yeah, you must be a Steelers mom!

And each year those requests are approved.

Sorry man. Bottom line is that Esmark just announced they were splitting ice at Printscape next season.

I heard the same thing from a coach down there.

I thought it was established by wisdom on this board that nobody will want to go to Printscape, so it certainly will not pull SHAHA and Preds players! ? This question is part of what we were all speculating about in that other thread. I'd guess that as long as Taibi is at SHAHA his players will stay with him. But it will be interesting to see what effect this has on the other teams in the area.

This is actually entirely correct. And I think @Flavio must've missed the repeated discussions about the field being converted to a second sheet of ice as soon as next season, too. As far as I can tell, nobody has called Printscape their "dream destination". This is - or should have been - just a discussion about the possibilities. If an elite program can exist at the ridiculously located PIA, one can certainly exist at Printscape. If the core of this argument is about whether PIA or Printscape is more ideally located to attract talent, the answer is that neither is ideally located, but at least you don't have to take 28 to get to Printscape. Just for the record, too, at least one elite team already exists in the South Hills, at an even less-accessible rink. Paul Taibi's 16UAAA team is among the best in the country, as has been pointed out by others many times elsewhere on this board. I don't know anyone on that team, but a simple review of MHR makes it clear. Geography certainly didn't stop that from happening. In the end we all know that players will drive to wherever their needs are met, at least in our market.

Well, it seems to me clear that there are really two concentrations of hockey players in the city - in the South Hills between Canonsburg and TJ, and in the north hills between Cranberry and Harmarville. Clearly there are players all over the city, but in general people are traveling to these areas to play, especially at the highest level. Since we all agree that PIA is in a less advantageous area, and since PIA, Alpha, and Lemieux, are both a ways north of the city, it certainly appears that establishing a Tier 1 or higher Tier 2 presence south of the city would attract some players who are currently driving north a nontrivial distance to practice and play. A similar logic was used by the folks who established the Rebellion Independent 14U Girls Team - they realized that there are players in the South Hills that would try out for an independent national-bound team that was located in the South Hills if one existed. Nobody would argue that they are equivalent to the Pens Elite or Steel City Selects - and in general girls who make one of those two programs during tryouts go to those programs instead of Rebellion - but one does have to wonder what might happen if the Rebellion continues to enjoy success, and if the Rebellion organization is able to successfully support them despite BB buying their rink. I imagine that BB might try to establish their own national bound teams there eventually, or try to take over the Rebellion - rumors on this board certainly suggest that doing so is in BB's SOP. You can imagine that Esmark practicing there at least occasionally, or establishing teams there full-time, even, might be a step in that direction for BB. The argument about whether the North Hills or the South Hills has the most good players is silly. In the South Hills you've got Peter's Township, Bethel Park, USC, TJ, etc., while in the north you have North Allegheny, Pine Richland, Seneca Valley, etc. Both areas are rich with good players. Nobody wants to drive across town in either direction for practices and games several times a week, but at our current moment it's mostly people driving north from the South Hills. Driving south is just as awful as driving north, it's just less common since the Tier 1 organizations are currently all north of the city.

I have this on very good authority from several sources as well. As a matter of fact, it's almost common knowledge in some circles nowadays. If there isn't a second sheet there before next season I'll be surprised.

Not to mention the rumors of them freezing out local skills instructors at their rinks as soon as they took over.

Folks, while the ad nauseum discussion about the flaws of various organizations might be especially interesting on this topic in particular, I'm thinking that the OP intended this thread to serve as a reference of when everyone is scheduling tryouts. Perhaps another thread about tryout shenanigans would be more appropriate for those discussions. There are probably many, many people who would appreciate a quick reference for tryout dates. Just my $0.02.