mrfreeze

Here is my thought on how to improve things in the area for local kids. Esmark and Vengeance need to join together and join a legit Tier 1 League and form teams at all levels, they should also consider forming a Tier 2 elite program that does not play in PAHL and use this as a feeder into the Tier 1 program. Yuri and Kosick are establish midget coaches with connections and history and should be placed as the coaches and be kept in place, this would provide stability. Chris Sturm is also part of Esmark now and could offer help with getting the Vengeance into the Tier 1 elite league. Zieler and Nate are great coaches, but I think they would be better suited at working the younger level and being able to teach solid fundamentals at u12 and below and be a draw for to establish the younger program. I think filling out the rest of the coaches and having a program that has stability and gives the kids different solid coaches over the years would be beneficial. Dorsey would probably be better off at the older age and needs to separate himself from the operational portion of the organization. You need to find an orbitational director for this, I know of a few, but not going to mention them for privacy purposes, but the vengeance has always lacked organization. The Tier 2 organization needs to be separate from pahl as kids will be more inclined to tryout for a team like this instead of it being a team they have played against in the past and have a hatred against. These teams should play and practice like a tier 1 team with expanded play in markets like Cleveland, Columbus, Buffalo and Philly. If done right I could see them as a top tier 2 team in the country that could go to nationals at 14u and higher while the tier 1 should be able to be in the top 10=20 nation wide or higher on a regular basis. But as always you have to many egos and people how profit greatly or want full control over everything. I watched the last couple years Yurri and Dorsey battle over kids and in the end the kids loose. Esmark needs to figure out what options they have with what Blackbear is doing. Shaha has done some good things, as well as some other tier 2 programs, but can people put egos aside for the greater good, who knows.

Most of the freshman going to d1 are 00-03, some of the more gifted 04 would opt out of finishing or playing Junior hockey and move to d1, I think midam will be fine and will be putting lots of kids when the 06 and younger kids come up. Look back at a number of factors, ADM cross ice mandate I think came with 06 age for 8u, I know some programs did put it in place earlier, but since it was mandated I have seen leaps and bounds on development over the last couple years, Younger kids are miles ahead of what they used be in skill and skating. I think the Sydney Crosby program started just before the cross ice that got more kids involved, I would say it started around the 04's birth year and grown year over year. I also think most kids around the 99-03 birthyears where getting into the sport when the pens sucked, where bankrupt and threating to leave town which effected the Pittsburgh market more than others in midam, but still had an effect. I have a pretty good eye on the area talent from 04-10 and can see midam has tons of talents. Also as much as some may hate PPE, before they brought in the crew from Chicago and pushed the Excel Program, lots of the younger kids did benefit from the program and has caused other programs to step it up and as the program continues to push out the local kids as they bring in out of town and out of country kids, those kids still manage to develop elsewhere. Logan Cooley #3 in the draft this year was the first of this new crop, I think people are noticing there is a lot of talent in this market and you will see lots of kids in Tier 1/2 Jr and eventually D1 college from the midam market.

What does it cost to play on a good PAHL team. Looks like the 06 Renegades and Allegheny do mutiple travle tournaments and get a decent bit of ice. Before saying PAHL is cheaper, I would think this statement is not really accurate, If you are playing on a PAHL program that gets less ice time / practices, plays less tournaments and often have volunteer coaches, that keep the cost down. I think you need to look at what you are getting for your money, Seems like the biggest expense could be extra or further travel, but some like this or want to travel to these tournaments. i know people that paid pretty close in PAHL AA fees as they did at AAA.

I thought I saw a couple Esmark 05 go in the draft also. I think it was 39 rounds cause they have 3 new teams and the last 15 rounds are those team filling out the 70 man. It's still Tier 2 junior hockey and tuition free if you kid makes the team and is kept on the team and not sent down to to lower teams, I would make sure you read that contract carefully before signing.

You should be able to tell, no use looking out of town if you kid is not currently one of the better players on his team, but you have to be honest and not look at him as your kid and with the rose colored glasses. We rip the faux AAA teams , but lets be honest. Looks how those teams rank at the end of the year. Is he on the 4 or 5 best team or was he on a really good AA team, if he was good, ppe would not be the only one calling on a local kid, is Vengeance, Shaha, Esmark or what ever team after him before tryout, inviting him to pre skates. Now they can be blowing hot air up your ass. It's hard, but before just moving your kid out of the area, make sure he is ready and it is worth it, also there are lots of teams that are the so called faux aaa in other towns, does it make sense to go from a team ranked 50-60 here to a team ranked the same 200 miles away. If he was truly a top kid, opportunity should present itself, but if you are close and can't crack the top team, maybe ppe pr second team, for reasons other than talent, then maybe getting out of town is best. I think the problem most people have with ppe lately is they are cutting local kids that are as good or better than what they are bringing in or pushing the Pittsburgh kids out. This is why Cleveland now has 7 or 8 kids from Pittsburgh at the 06 level and the kid that left for BK that made the national team, that's a lot of talent to leave Pittsburgh, looks like most of them could go on to play junior or college hockey. If your kid is serious, get him in the gym, hopefully he plays or played multiple sport growing up. It's a lot of work to get to the top, make a plan, don't just think you can just hop on a top ten team from a 100th ranked team or tier 2 team, you will need to climb the ladder and put in the work.

Actually the Green Bay and London scout watch a couple of there games at Mid Am's I think I saw the Des Moines scout also and the Penn State and RMU hockey coaches where in the building for other reasons but they did get scouted. They also got a good bit of exposure at the CCM Chicago Invite that had a good turn out scouting wise. The team was in the 30"s this season and played some top 10 teams this year. Coaches talk, scouts talk, It doesn't matter what team you play on, if it is a highly ranked team it will get scouted more than others and your chances are better and the more likely your chances to get exposure and drafted. The 08 Vengeance are pretty highly ranked, if that stays true next year at u14, they will start to see scouts by the end of the year and at u15, they will get invited to higher end tournaments, opportunity to play better teams and get exposure.

He has got attention and will likely go play Junior hockey later, he need to get stronger, he is not ready yet and will likely be tendered in the NAHL in 2 years or a pick in the phase 2 ushl draft in the future. 95% of these kids drafted in the chl tier 1 leagues "OHL, WHL, Q" and USHL Phase 1 will not play next year and only a couple will get called up to skate a game or couple games for there team. To get drafted at this age is a trophy and says you put in the work and we see some potential, but lets see what you can do. Add to the fact that every D1 college player that played in the last 2 years now has an additional year of eligibility causing fewer opportunities for kids to move up and will take a couple of years to work it way through, I saw yesterday Penn State added 4 kids for next year, 3 are transfers from other D1 schools and only 1 from the USHL. Look at the 05 PPE kid that was drafted last year and is going to BU, I think he played 2 or 3 games for Youngstown and he has decent size and skill to play in the ushl. Lot of Phase 1 kids get redrafted, look at the Barons Goalie that went in the Phase 2 yesterday, he was drafted by Youngstown in the Phase 1 a year or 2 ago and just went to Waterloo I think. Lots of hockey to still be played and opportunity..

I think he has wanted $3 million for last 10 years, While that seems high, It used to cost $1 million for a new single sheet of ice back then, but now I think it would be hard to build a similar structure with the same square footage for under $5 million. It did get a good amount of updates back when it won the Kraft hockey award, I know the Pens put additional money into it, but it was still deemed not good enough to host the game and they moved it to UPMC last minute. I don't like to location, but it does serve an area and does not have much competition. Black Bear dose not typically look at single sheets. To be honest, anyone looking to build a rink will not build a single sheet cause it cost to run one sheet to multiple sheets is not much of a difference. I don't see this being sold anytime soon, I know multiple people that are interested in getting into the business, but this place does not have much potential to make it worth the investment, even at a $1 to $1.5, I don't see it happening.

If you have watched him lately, he seemed to have changed his stance on the NCDC and does not seem to be a fan, this maybe because he is now part of the NAHL and they are trying to compete for the same kids. Like anything, take what is said and double check and make your own decisions. He does provide some good info, but Junior Hockey is a whole other world.

I don't think this is far off. I would say at 06, the Vengeance team would have easily beat Allegheny and SCIR the top 2 AA 06 only teams by 3, but probably much more 9 out of 10 times. They where a much bigger and stronger team then the 2 pahl teams, Preds would have probably lost to those 2 team 7 out of 10 and would have been a good AA team. Shaha beat Vengeance I think 3 or 4 times and would have also beat those teams. i think Shaha was ranked in the 30's, Vengeance in the 50's.. The 07 teams would have been a little closer. Shaha, Foxes, Allegheny all had decent teams, Vengeance would have been a good match at this level, maybe a bit lower, Iceman I think would have also fallen behind them. Esmark "which was mostly old Vengeance kids previous year" I think was better, but not by a ton. Looking at these 2 birth years you could field 6 teams. Maybe instead of lets stay in PAHL, you just form your own league with these 6 and have some showcases with Buffalo, Columbus, Philly, Cleveland. Work together.

Most Varsity teams will roster between 10-15 players and rotate dual rostered JV players though the open spots against teams as the season goes on. So if a kid does move in to town, they also have the flexibility. For the armature team, it is harder as they set their rosters and typically they don't have the space to add the kids. This is why you will sometimes find a top level kid on a team that had an open spot or missed the tryouts and they move on the following season. At the higher older levels, the kids typically stay behind till end of the season or will reach out and tryout before moving to a market.

JH, I get your point, I know their is Faux AAA. In a perfect world, I am sure some of these ideas work. I think the desire to seek out better options is a bigger factor, not the AA people calling the AAA people the chasers or the AAA calling the AA people the dream killers. I have watched my kid go from through and have been part of it at many levels. I have made tough decisions that some could not understand cause it left them behind or might have had an effect on a team they or their kids were part of. Those decisions had many factors including what was best for our family or situation. I have had the pleasure of being part of many different hockey families, I watched kids go on to juniors, college, national program and pros. I've also seen kids quit, get left behind, it happens. One thing I would say I am bias to is, I don't think highly of the PAHL, I've been part of it for a long time and I did make an attempt to try to make it better and keep teams from leaving, but PAHL is controlled more by the smaller clubs and volunteers that can't make a decision to grow and evolve. Almost all decisions are driven by how it will effect those in charges program and kids. Do we ever ask why kids leave or why these programs that go independent are growing. Why have programs like NP, RMU and PPE adm inhouse programs have grown, while the pahl ADM program seems to have stalled out., Black Bear is creating a league now, Alpha Ice has created its own league cause there seems to be a need, since others don't evolve. 10 years ago, how many independent teams did we have to now. Could PAHL have created a higher league, worked with city within 3 hours to expand and play each others top teams. The old hockey Director at UPMC started the East West classic to help this along, but once he was replaced the focused shifted with the Pens to grow local youth hockey to a national focus. My opinion is PAHL and Mid Am need some fresh blood and direction. At this point, anyone that sees the bigger picture that could drive these ideas leaves PAHL and does what is best for them and their kids instead of worrying about others. I wished I had been able to do more and my kids are almost at the end and I can say, I have enjoyed the time with my kids and people we have met along the way. My advise to anyone coming into this, would be open minded decide if you can help make the change, I did make some changes I am proud of, but I had to move on as I know true change will take time. So do your homework, some programs will work better than others, watch out for snake salesman or dream killers. Hope you enjoyed your time spent at the rink, cause it will be over before you know it.

I award you AAA. Enjoy you time with your kids doing it how you want, not someone crying about how you are wrong. I don't care if you play independent AA, AAA or BBBB. Have fun and enjoy the memories.

To be honest, you could flip this around and say why do you need PAHL, do you really need to play AA. All that does is cost us money. We could all play inhouse for $800-$1000 at our home rink and not have to travel all over western Pa, Ohio, Erie and WV. Before you say it will never work, look at Sweden and Finland. Those teams play inhouse and have the highest level of NHL players per population. Instead of matching teams you are now matching lines and playing them against each other. So you top 15-20 kids make up 4-5 lines that are matched up, your next 15-20 are your teams 2nd line and play against each other. Save gas, time and buy more ice and better coaching. It make sense, but yet no one really wants to do it after ADM. But hey lets tell people what they should do and how to spend their money and how they are stupid cause they don't agree or want to play in your reindeer games. Go ahead and buy those two AA's for your ego. I don't get why we can't just all play A major, or wait, A Minor, no no, B. Fuck it, I am going bowling, this shit sucks and all parents don't like when I am drinking beer at 6am practice. I just don't get why people just don't do as I say and I keep reasoning with myself making me feel I am right.

Not all the better kids are playing up at u15 anymore. There are defiantly some high level kids that do, like the Pittsburgh kid that went to BK. The 15's get more attention from the ushl and ohl scouts and if you choice is between a mid level 16's or a higher level 15's, I would say you will get looked at more often with the 15's team. Now we can argue development. The BK kid already had the exposure and started on the 15's and they thought it would be best to toughen him up to play for the NTDP team and moved him to the 16's. you have to realize that the top u15's go to the NTDP, USHL,WHL and the Q. I would say the top 100 that are mature enough and physically able will move one. Go on elite prospect and search how many 05's di this, some played a couple games, but I'm sure I am pretty close to the number. Also some will jump to u18 and Prep. I think 15's is the pinnacle of aaa as far as skill before kids start going different direction. Look at the top 5 u15 team this season, all have lost 3-4 players to NTDP and USHL tenders and we still have the Priority 1 drafts coming up in next couple weeks. Plus some kids will get invited to camps and leave their AAA teams. Also some one said that the Vengeance has not produced any kids, I do believe they have had some kids go play Division 1 from the Junior team. I think the goalie a couple years ago and another played at Colorado College and to be honest, the vengeance are really the old AM Pens charter before the hornets took away the logo and the AM Pens have produced many NHL, D1 and Junior hockey players.

By the time these kids get to midget, maybe bantam, Yuri and Esmark will start picking them off. Typically if the team has been together for 3 or more year, the parents and players start to hate each other and in comes a new voice that promises he will make it all better and he has some magic beans. Esmark has never been worried about a feeder system, they benefited from the folding of the black teams and now the Vengeance is there new development system. The guy in charge hates him and does not know how to deal with it. You don't hold a parent meeting and tell the parents that if you are interested in Esmark and what they are selling, then hit the fucking road and don't come back. He chased the last 10 kids he had out the door while the other guy made promise, that we will see if he keeps. Instead of the my way or the highway approach, I think it would have bestowed him to just talk to parents and players and ask why do you want to leave, what can we do to improve our program or this is what we are doing and can offer you. To many options out there and some are better salesman than others. I willl say this right now, Vengeance have a chance to do it right but need to make some changes. 1. Find a league 2. Communication 3. Come through on promises like updating your website, stats, increase your social media 4. Solidify coaches ahead of time, allow them to go out and talk to players and increase intrest 5. Get a clue of what is going on at each level 6. Stay ahead, create a feeder system for your team, work with the tier 2 organization, share players instead of fighting SCIR for players. You don't need a practice squad, work with them or others. 7. Communication - again cause you don't get it. 8. Work with people, you need to sometimes give to get. You could have worked with SHAHA at the 06 level and had a kick ass team, instead you fought them and Esmark and now Esmark has all of your 07, 06 and I bet some of the u18 head over if they have not already. 9. Get organized - what does it cost, how much do you practice. Most AA and AAA programs have a tryout guide and they update it every year, I have yet to see one for the Vengeance .10. Learn to speak Sputnik cause the way you are going, it looks like someone will be taking over and you will work for him very soon. Good luck to the Vengeance 08, 09, 10 and so on. On the bright side both teams are black and red, so the change wont be to bad. Hopefully they learn from the mistakes of the past.

They took the u16 "2006" tryout dates down. I think they were supposed to start yesterday. They also emailed anyone registered and told them, they will get a refund.

If you are referring to the kidsand families that did this and are playing on top 10 teams in the country at 06 and 07, I would disagree as this is where most of the USHL, OHL and D1 scouts concentrate their efforts on when scouting kids in the US. The u17 team 2006 by for next year primarly came from the top 5 teams in the country and Minnesota high school and prep school. Other than the Minnesota High school, most of those kids have come from all over and not many are playing for a hometown team. If you are referring to PPE or Barons. couple of those kids will play USHL/OHL, say 6-7 and maybe 3 or 4 play D1. I don't think any will go to Juniors next season, but in another year or 2. The PPE 07 is a lock for the national team next season. Both those teams have some talented players and being 6 and 7 in the rankings shows it. Both where very heavily scouted this season. Time will tell. That 06 group of Pittsburgh kids is very talented and many of the better ones have left cause of many reasons, mostly due to PPE catering to out of town kids over local kids. But this is not new, many kids have left Pittsburgh for a number of reasons in the past, in order to move ahead. Used to be cause the Pittsburgh teams were not as competitive, but that seems to have changed.

If you are referring to the kidsand families that did this and are playing on top 10 teams in the country at 06 and 07, I would disagree as this is where most of the USHL, OHL and D1 scouts concentrate their efforts on when scouting kids in the US. The u17 team 2006 by for next year primarly came from the top 5 teams in the country and Minnesota high school and prep school. Other than the Minnesota High school, most of those kids have come from all over and not many are playing for a hometown team. If you are referring to PPE or Barons. couple of those kids will play USHL/OHL, say 6-7 and maybe 3 or 4 play D1. I don't think any will go to Juniors next season, but in another year or 2. The PPE 07 is a lock for the national team next season. Both those teams have some talented players and being 6 and 7 in the rankings shows it. Both where very heavily scouted this season. Time will tell. That 06 group of Pittsburgh kids is very talented and many of the better ones have left cause of many reasons, mostly due to PPE catering to out of town kids over local kids. But this is not new, many kids have left Pittsburgh for a number of reasons in the past, in order to move ahead. Used to be cause the Pittsburgh teams were not as competitive, but that seems to have changed.

If you are referring to the kidsand families that did this and are playing on top 10 teams in the country at 06 and 07, I would disagree as this is where most of the USHL, OHL and D1 scouts concentrate their efforts on when scouting kids in the US. The u17 team 2006 by for next year primarly came from the top 5 teams in the country and Minnesota high school and prep school. Other than the Minnesota High school, most of those kids have come from all over and not many are playing for a hometown team. If you are referring to PPE or Barons. couple of those kids will play USHL/OHL, say 6-7 and maybe 3 or 4 play D1. I don't think any will go to Juniors next season, but in another year or 2. The PPE 07 is a lock for the national team next season. Both those teams have some talented players and being 6 and 7 in the rankings shows it. Both where very heavily scouted this season. Time will tell. That 06 group of Pittsburgh kids is very talented and many of the better ones have left cause of many reasons, mostly due to PPE catering to out of town kids over local kids. But this is not new, many kids have left Pittsburgh for a number of reasons in the past, in order to move ahead. Used to be cause the Pittsburgh teams were not as competitive, but that seems to have changed.

Well the line for the over under is 3, looks like 2 moved on and 1 moved up from 07. So that leaves 2 players and a goalie in question. Any bets?

Is it more insane to commute 2 hours each way or to move your entire family or rent an apartment and live in a City for the season while your kid plays hockey. Another question is it crazy to play for a team that requires you to attend a school and additional program that will easily put your fees at $25 - $30,000 dollars before any travel fees, or living fees are worked into the mix. Look at PPE roster and it is filled with kids from Canada, California, New York, Michigan. They are not the only ones doing it, pretty much all the top teams are like this and you even have it with mid to lower level teams. I heard 3 of the vengeance players are going to play in Columbus next season, I think they already had 1 Pittsburgh kid. How many kids is Yuri going to bring in this season, and what does it cost them. You would have to ask those kids and family's that left if it was worth it, sounded like it worked out for them and they all returned and added a few more. I would also ask the Pens and Esmark players the same. Are they staying or going. I would not be so quick to judge unless you new all the facts and faced with the same decision to make for you and your kid. That being said, we still have lots of tryouts to go, hope you got a lot of popcorn.

I heard 2 more Pittsburgh kids left PPE 06 and went to Cleveland Barons.

I think you assume that players need to actually go through a tryout process. I don't think that is a rule, only thing I have read and experienced is a national bound organization can not hold tryouts or offer a position to a a player until 48 hours after nationals has concluded. So last Wednesday around noon, teams are free to offer and sign players to a so called tender. To be honest, these really mean nothing, cause a player could commit and then say they don't wan to play and can get released. I don't think first rosters for any teams go in till June. Is this fair, probably not. but do you want the best kids or the best kids that showed up for a tryout. MAny of these coaches watch or have scouts watch these players all season. I can tell you any top 20 team at tier 1 in the country, recruits in some form or another and offer positions and secure players sometime before tryouts start or end.

I think Esmark was quicker to just offer kids spots and make promises in order to secure a core and beat Vengeance to the punch. While some may say this is BS and should not happen and kids should be given a fair tryout and only those who tryout get a position, that is not how it works at tier 1 and the higher you go, tryouts are just a formality. If you are not on their radar and talking to coaches by January, you are not making that team. Tryouts/auditions are done during the season, deals made, kids recruited, agents and advisors doing their things. That is the reality.