Corsi

27 minutes ago, YardSale said:

Only argument I have regarding the "no lack of customers" sentiment is that Esmark and Vengeance '09 had really low numbers at their skates and V barely had a turnout at tryouts.  That doesn't tell me AA kids are wanting to move up and aren't being taken, that tells me AA kids are happy where they are and see low end AAA for what it is.

In this situation, you are probably correct.  Esmark was attempting to resurrect something that blew up last year.  The consensus has been that parents and players are not going to do the drive to New Kensington.  If we look at where the current AAA teams are for 2009, there is PPE (Cranberry), Preds (South Hills), and SHAHA (South Hills).  No idea what has/is happening with Vengeance, but Esmark seems to come down to location.

There are always going to be "enough customers" and that isn't just for hockey, people will buy into anything.  I've said this in prior posts, but the 2009's are now hitting that age where USA Hockey historically sees a drop in registration numbers regardless of the reason (jobs, significant others, booze, etc).  Also, it has been stated before that some of these players are needing to decide about PIHL vs. travel hockey and everything else going on in their lives.   

7 minutes ago, sadday4hockey said:

And why are so many parents so willing to part with their kids during such an important part of their overall societal development?

If the discussion is still about players from Pittsburgh going to Barons, that is a 2hr drive depending on where in the Pittsburgh region you are coming from.  Not all the players from Pittsburgh that are going up there are going to billet, some have the ability and the willingness to do that drive.  Believe me, I've heard of parents driving what people would consider "crazy" distances to give their kids opportunities that were not available to them in other areas.    

From what I understand it is not mandatory but it is highly encouraged for the boys teams.  The girls seems to operate slightly differently, but I have heard from a parent that has a girl playing there that they are also highly encouraged to do Excel as well.  

1 hour ago, aaaahockey said:

I heard younger ages mostly.  Again I don't have a connection there but I heard they ended up taking a lot of girls on top teams that normally wouldn't make it and had to actually backfill some of the second team rosters after tryouts.   Rumor?  Maybe?  But someone else on the board saying that they heard something similar.  Anyone have a daughter up there with more insight? 

I heard something very similar.  

43 minutes ago, Carl Racki said:

I think the lower level travel teams are great as long as the play PAHL and only do 2-3 tournaments that are 2-5 hours max away.  Then maybe one to two local tournaments.  The kids really enjoy doing those trips and it is great bonding for the players and families.  No reason to take that experience away from the kids.  It's not like they are charging $7000 plus team fees and selling a bs product like some other programs.  As long as people truly know what they are getting and enjoy it I think it is great.  It is when orgs. try to make people believe it is a "PATH" to the NHL or D1 college yet they send very few players to play tier one or tier two juniors, (I don't count tier 3 pay to play as there are over 100 teams and literally anyone can play) that is a far bigger problem.  I think players of the lower level travel teams all just enjoy playing the game.  I don't think anyone is telling them it is a path to anywhere and do all these extras/spend more money.  They just enjoy the game and the families they play with.  I think that is great.

The key, is having a parent/player education program in place when players are just beginning to enter into playing hockey.  In my opinion, there is no harm in sharing with parents at the 8U and 10U levels information about what the hockey "path" is and what the odds are of their player reaching Junior, D1, etc.  It is the organizations and coaches that do not do this that are doing a disservice to people.  For better or worse, hockey is not structured like baseball, football, or basketball which are what most parents think of when it comes to youth sports.  

As far as the "too much travel hockey", there is no choice, but to travel.  There are not rinks in every neighborhood like baseball fields or basketball courts.  Hockey has always required more travel than "traditional" sports because of a smaller population and the scarcity of facilities.  I would think if this was a different region of the country or Canada there would be more options to "stay local", that being said I feel like the issue isn't the travel, but the shear number of games some teams play.  Some travel teams are playing 50-60 games and then the same players are also playing 20 PIHL games, so these are 14-19 year old's playing somewhere in the ballpark of 70-80 games and that does not include 2/3 practices per week for each team. 

16 hours ago, YardSale said:

The difference here is there is no current ‘09 team. You would think players would come to the skates to see what is there.

The former '09 team split up between Preds and Allegheny Badgers.  I don't believe any of those players are coming back, so not sure where they are going to get the players to fill an '09 team.  

17 hours ago, Overqualified said:

If you took the top 10 skaters and a goalie from each of the 4 divisions all 4 teams would be pretty equal your not better because of the division you play in high school in

AAA high school isn't like AAA tier 1 like amateurs

That does nothing to advance what this discussion has been about...  The argument was never that there are not quality players at the D2 level, it was that those players numbers are inflated because of the competition level at that division.  The way that I've understood what has been argued is that the D2 players point totals would regress towards the mean when faced with a higher level of competition.  It is nearly impossible to compare player stats across levels.  

This whole thing reminds of when I coached and parents would be telling me how good a player is by quoting the number of goals, or points, a player has (all of which where always outrageous numbers) but then when I would look into what level the player was playing at I almost always found out they were doing it on a team playing at a low level of competition.  The point of reference is what is most important in a discussion like this.  

13 minutes ago, Happy Hockey Fan said:

They wouldn’t compete in AA either. They would be near the bottom of AA. You have to have three very solid lines and a 4th line that can give you some decent minutes in order to be successful in AA. 

OK...  so back to the Stellar 6 discussion, would the best player(s) at D2 put up similar numbers against AA competition if they are still on their D2 team and playing at that level?  I feel like that is the question that started this discussion.  Based off of some of the responses, unless the player(s) in question are good enough to carry a team, my instinct is that the answer is going to be they would not.

45 minutes ago, hockeyisgreat said:

Why can't they be on equal terms with the "Pure Teams".

I feel like it this is an "apples to oranges" comparison, so let's try this.  I have been told that in other high school sports the teams that are co-op are placed in a division based off of the combined student bodies of the schools who compete on that team (this was in relation to boys lacrosse).  I am going to venture a guess that this would put the majority, if not all, D2 teams into the PIHL "AAA" division.  Can somebody who knows more about D2 give a guess on how they would match up with that division?  

On 3/29/2024 at 3:59 PM, zam said:

It's a combination of some players "claiming" assists from the refs after a goal, some refs not caring or unable to determine goal scorers, and some coaches/organizations sending in stat corrections to the league.  If you see a team that consistently has 2 assists credited for every goal, you can be pretty sure either the coach called them in after the game, or the players followed the ref to the score keeper. Most of the time it's inconsequential,  my kid has had missed assists at times and assists he didn't deserve credited to him other times. 

As an official, sometimes you do miss the secondary assist, when that occurs I normally ask a coach or the goal scorer something like "which d-man made the 1st pass?" or something along those lines.  They are good with giving me a number 99% of the time and I have to trust that they are going to give me the correct information.  I only ask if I know that there was a 2nd assist and I missed the number, I won't hand out an assist just because a kid skates up to me and claims to have made a pass.

If teams want to send in stats corrections, so be it.  I'll be the first one to admit that I'm not perfect but I can say that I do the best job that I can when I'm out there.  I always wanted my son to get credit for points when he deserved it back when he played so I make it a point to give these kids the same credit today.

1 hour ago, Rewster said:

Junior A leagues/teams are all still separated by the customary Tier system…Tier 1: USHL; Tier 2: NAHL; Tier 3: EHL, NA3HL, USPHL.

This breakdown of US Junior seems correct.

As far as having players go to Junior for a year or two following their HS graduation does make some sense.  Hockey is what's considered a "late specialization" sport, which means that players don't reach their peak until mid 20's.  This is compared to "early specialization" sports like figure skating and gymnastics (mid/late teens).  It only makes sense that college coaches would be looking for players who are physically, mentally, and emotionally more mature than a 17 or 18 year old who is just coming out of high school and is probably living life on their own for the first time ever.  

With the players staying home and experiencing the "rites of passage" that is an individual player's decision.  Historically, the registration numbers for USA Hockey tend to begin to slide around ages 14-16.  The theory has usually been that players and their families are making the choice that the expense and time commitment is out weighed by the desire to do things like hangout with friends or significant others, have a job, party, etc.  As long as organizations are up front with players and families about what the expectations are and what sacrifices may have to be made, I don't see a problem.

29 minutes ago, stickboy said:

If you make that call on that play in a state championship, you deserve criticism. Officials in a game of that level should be experienced enough to use discretion. They delivered the ultimate consequence on an act that had no effect on a player or the game. Heck, I’ll willing to bet everyone in attendance was dumbfounded, and if no call was made at all there would have been no real complaint.

Really, "the ultimate consequence", actually that's incorrect.  The lowest consequence for a spear is the call which was made, a 5 minute major and a game misconduct.  The "ultimate consequence" escalates to a match penalty.  Yes, "everyone in attendance was dumbfounded" might be correct because they were watching the play up ice as opposed to away from the puck.  The rear official that made the call is 100% doing the job that he is out there for, which is to be especially vigilant for penalties which occur away from the play.  Regardless of if the spear was "violent" or "soft", a spear is a spear.

On 3/23/2024 at 7:46 PM, hockeydadx3 said:

Be careful stating such a thing on this forum. Unless you have your kid play AA hockey within 15 minutes from your home until they head to college you are an irresponsible parent. 

You forgot wasting your money and "drinking the Kool-Aid"!

1 hour ago, aaaahockey said:

The few kids who are that good will be found one way or another. And they aren't playing on the low level AAA teams around here with very few exceptions.  

I agree with the premise that good players are found one way or another, but I would argue that each of the "low level AAA teams" you are referencing have a few players (2-4) that could play for a 30 "AAA" team and contribute (not sure where your cut off is for "low level").  Those kids that are playing at the "AAA" level have a better chance of "being found" than players at "AA" simply because the events they attend are usually attended by other "AAA" programs which lend themselves to being watched by more eyes than a "AA" or "A" event.  

33 minutes ago, Happy Hockey Fan said:

I know two kids that played both amateur and high school, didn’t stop them from going D1. Only missed one or two high school games because of amateur travel. For a coach to deny a kid an opportunity to play a game they love with friends is absolutely atrocious. Deal with any conflicts as they come up and playing for both teams is not an issue. The EGO of these coaches that say you can’t play both is the problem. A high school coach suggesting a kid not play for that kind of coach is not a problem. Missing an amateur practice occasionally for a high school game should not be a problem. The kids are on the ice. They are not going to a movie. The coaches that think missing a couple practices for other ice time need to move on to another career. Go coach adults, kids are kids and should be treated as such. Because no matter how good of a coach you are, a couple missed practices are NOT going to change the trajectory of a player or hurt their amateur team. 

My response was to this "I feel like it should be the other way around. Any responsible HS coach should advise his players to avoid that train wreck A chase."

The "I feel like it should be the other way around." is what my post was trying to point out.  Players and families, for the most part put their priority on the travel/amateur team over their PIHL team, because of the difference in level of play.  I agree with you that there is value in having players participate in both.

4 minutes ago, RJUSHL said:

As has been the case in the past, they're not permitted to miss practice for JV games or practices. They can miss practice for a Varsity game unless it happens to be a practice that has been made mandatory leading up to a tournament or a big game for instance.  I wouldn't say it's PIHL unfriendly, but it's certainly not the most friendly.

Thank you, that is similar to what I heard about both Preds and SHAHA.  Not sure about SHAHA's policy with JV, but that seems correct as far as varsity goes.

11 hours ago, CranjisMcBasketball said:

I feel like it should be the other way around. Any responsible HS coach should advise his players to avoid that train wreck A chase. 

The problem with that is the level of play on travel hockey teams is higher than local HS, especially when you move away from the higher PIHL divisions.  Also, if the player has any kind of goal of playing at a higher level, junior and college coaches are not sending their people to watch a PIHL game on a Thursday night, but will have people in Buffalo, Detroit, Cleveland, or Pittsburgh for a weekend to watch "AAA" tournament games.  I understand the desire to play with and in front of your friends from school, but the decision should be based on what an individual player's future goals are.

3 hours ago, hockey07 said:

Any truth to preds u15 2009 not allowing kids to play PIHL hockey?

I can't speak to what Vengance or the rumored Esmark team is going to do, but I know people involved with both SHAHA and Preds at that BY and they have been told that both teams will be "High School Friendly", which I would think means that there's an ability to play both and if there's a conflict it is dealt with when the conflict comes up.  

This stuff happens every year around this time.  

5 hours ago, Wildcat19 said:

Rumor is that Icemen are raising costs. The 09 team wants to stay together but doesn’t want to pay more plus all the extra costs Icemen are notorious for

The 09 team that competed as Tier 2 this past season is being advertised as moving up to Tier 1 AAA next season.  The extra "A" must mean extra cost.

49 minutes ago, stickboy said:

Who does the scoresheet and clock in PAHL?  In PIHL they are paid employees. 

Also, someone brought up the refs. That is a big variable. After all, the scorekeeper only reports what the ref relays.  I’ve seen plenty of refs that aren’t good with getting numbers right or not bothering with second assists at all. 

PAHL scoresheets during the regular season are done by volunteers (usually parents from the hometeam), I believe in the PAHL playoffs it has to be a volunteer that is not affiliated with either teams that are playing, but I may be incorrect.  

11 hours ago, Rewster said:

Yes, that is one reason that I have also heard. The other main reason that have heard (as to why the gag order was implemented to ban statistical publication of the teams and players) was due to fear of parents becoming unruly and complaining about the inaccuracies in shots/saves, assists, goals, etc and the obvious omission from the parents’ expertise. All I know is that these things happen all over North American youth hockey. The successful leagues have a policy in place that addresses disputes in a timely and efficient manner.

Either reason that is given as to why they don’t maintain public transparency with statistical data, are both based on the primary tenant of “fear.” Instead of the league awarding an individual trophy for most points, or most goals, or most assists by a forward and/or defenseman/defensewoman; they give out the “participation trophy” equivalency by removing evidence of their existence.

Life is a competition. People keep score. Oftentimes, it validates one’s hard work, effort, and commitment to obtaining a team’s success through the individual effort of the 6-person unit at any one time on the ice.

If the stats are published or not, parents and coaches already question scoring decisions.  I still officiate games, and at the younger age groups I get questioned more about awarding secondary assists than I do about getting calls right in a lot of games.  As far as shots goes, that has always been arbitrary even at the NHL level (I can remember the stories about the way NJ was legendary for some of the shot totals they came up with in the 2000's), so that will never be agreed upon.  

I disagree with the idea of giving out awards for scoring accomplishments because we already see players (and parents) who are ONLY concerned with how many goals their little player scores and that would only perpetuate selfish play.  The bare minimum should be that the stats should be published and updated each week during the season.  At the very least, this would provide a single source regardless if people are satisfied with the accuracy.  People aren't always happy with the accuracy of the stats the NHL publishes, that's the cost of doing business.  

14 hours ago, Rewster said:

There was a glitch in the reporting of the game scores this season for most of the year. You actually could click on the individual games and have access to the digital game sheets and summaries.

Nobody complained about it. It was actually pretty nice to see something other than just the final score of each game.

Once the league caught wind of their loophole of their statistical lockdown; they sewed it up for good. 

If there was any one person that complained about the score sheets being open to the public…well, it was the PAHL (obviously). Someone who monitors these boards and has the ability to remove the players’ individual competitiveness. The player statistics were obviously being tabulated and recorded. Why not be transparent about it? Hockey is a team game where keeping score is important. The Fair Play Points make a big difference down the stretch and sometimes it’s what makes teams more or less competitive depending on how aggressive they can be. The game sheets also show these penalties, minutes, and tabulations of the FPP. Without transparency, corruption has a haven.

That same "glitch" has appeared on and off on the PAHL site over the years.  While I'm no longer involved with PAHL, when I was, I was partially responsible with submitting an organizations preferred placement prior to placement games.  The first season I did this I questioned why when they asked for each team's roster they also requested what team and what level (B, A, AA, AAA) each player had played at the previous season (not sure if PAHL still requires this).  The reply I received was that it was mainly for players that were coming in from an organization outside of PAHL, because "they already have stats on every player in PAHL".  I then asked why PAHL doesn't post them anywhere and the response was "because they are afraid that other teams are going to start recruiting kids".