Corsi

100% true from what I've heard from parents both at Preds and SHAHA. According to some parents, their players have been asked to come to Esmark, but the parents wouldn't consider it because of the location of the rink. I feel like that makes perfect sense, why make that drive if the level of play, and development are all equal when you can do it and only have to drive 15-20 minutes if you are already in the South Hills. In a "perfect world", Preds and SHAHA would come together and form a South Hills based "AAA" program, which could compete with anyone in the area based off of how much talent is already present in that area of the city.

The EJEPL has been using this for formula for while. I do find it interesting that when Black Bear started buying rinks and founded the AHF that those teams that left the EJEPL for AHF (Ashburn, etc) brought this formula for playoff seeding with them.

My question is what age level is your son playing at? With the younger groups, AAA is worth the money but only if they are getting the necessary skills development and coaching. I very rarely was ever concerned about ice time until my son was at 15U and older. I would argue that up until they are 14 the focus should be on skill development and being a good teammate.

Back to the BB/AHF discussion. Those teams will still be able to do their PAHL schedule, and just schedule around the AHF "Showcase Weekends", which will at least now take place locally. While it might cost more money in fees, it might not be a bad way for some of these teams to not have to travel to Buffalo/Detroit/Cleveland to get games with out of town teams. I'm going to assume that the savings in travel/hotels/food should be able to balance out the additional fees associated with the AHF. My only caveat with that would be that they need to do it like some of the tournaments currently do and when building the schedule, they work to keep teams from the same city from playing each other since there is a chance that they will see them during other parts of the year at some point.

You must have never experienced the old Neville Ice Arena on the South Side. Legitimately, had fans and players pass out from the fumes there. There's a reason why it isn't there anymore.

The issue I would have with some of this is what happens when a player from a smaller organization "outgrows" that organization? Should a "AA/AAA" level player be forced to stay and play at a lower level that is inappropriate for their skills, or should that player be allowed to "shop" for an organization/team that fits their needs better? I get the desire to keep the shopping to a minimum, but I really don't see how any of the ideas being thrown around would work due to the number of rinks we have in the area, as well as the wide gap we have in organization sizes.

I agree... I coached for teams in the past where it was an expectation that the coach have a pre-season/mid-season/end-of-season meetings with each player just to let them know what was going on and where the coaches wanted them to focus as far as skills go. I have also had parents/players that asked for the feedback. If it wasn't outright solicited, I didn't volunteer it unless it was an instance where the player had to be sit down during a game because of something that had been addressed multiple times before, when that happened I felt obligated to let the player and parents know why it happened and what needs to change to keep it from happening again.

Saucey, in past posts, I've brought up the importance of having coaches/evaluators that are honest with players and parents. I personally have always tried to do that when I was involved with coaching. What coaches and organizations run into now are parents only see their player through "rose colored glasses", so the minute you are critical of someone's play the parent and player get defensive and then they go "organization shopping" for a coach/organization that is going to simply "tell them what they want to hear" as a way to be sure they are going to bring in the fees/dues all parents pay. My son played AAA hockey at an older age, but the best coach he had was at AA when he was 12yrs old and told him what his strengths and weaknesses were and told him what he needed to do to play up at the "next level". I don't think it was easy for my son to hear, but it opened his eyes up and he worked, focusing on those areas that he was deficient in.

Saucey, that is what most people think, but the "low level stuff" have some of the worst parent behavior. In my experience, it also has some of the most out control players, from a behavior standpoint as well. I've always chalked it up to the parents and players at "higher levels", tend to have more time and money invested in it and have normally been invested for a longer period of time so the expectations are usually different. I also feel like the "higher level" players often have a parent that has some level of playing experience, along with better coaching.

Brian Hartman - TJ to Niagara Mark Scally - Moon to PSU (ACHA) to AHL/ECHL CJ Severyn - Beaver to USDP to OSU to Calgary draft pick to AHL/ECHL

My point with the education piece is that it doesn't need to be something that is a "money grab" or anything along those lines. What it needs to be is people/coaches being honest with parents and kids and telling them what lies ahead of them and what the actual path looks like. I've run across too many parents who think their kid is the next Gretzky or Crosby because he's lighting it up at PAHL A Minor, and when they see even what people on this board would call a "faux AAA" team play in that same age group it's like a lightbulb going on. People need to understand that there are levels and at every level there are other rungs to the ladder. I agree, hockey really isn't all that complicated as long as you have some points of reference and know what you are looking at. The issue, at least in my opinion, are parents who come in because their kid wants to do it, but doesn't really have any background to what "it" is. These are also the parents that are probably most likely to get sucked in by coaches charging money or teams charging money because they don't know what the process looks like.

I have been involved with youth hockey in some way for close to 40 years. Crazy parents are not a new thing to hockey. There are just as many crazy parents in other sports than there are in hockey. The complaint with parents at a younger age is that they don't have the perspective of having watched for years and they seem to assume that the game revolves around their child and that their child should be playing major junior at 12 and in the NHL by 16. I've harped on it over and over again in different threads on this board, but we NEED better education for both players and parents about what the journey through hockey actually looks like. The problem will be that parents do not like to hear the truth when it comes to their child.

The extra work is automatic when you are playing at the AAA level. The separation point though are the kids that put in the extra work on their own vs. the kids that put in the extra work only when it is a "team" type of event (off ice training, etc). I think what really helps with kids between the ages of 10-13 is to have coaches give individual feedback to the players and their parents so they know what they need work on to get better. I've seen all kinds of kids through the years that were "the best at... insert skating, shooting, etc" but because they were the best stopped working on that specific skill. Kids need to focus on the weaknesses in their games, but not to the detriment of improving their entire game when doing the extra stuff.

The willingness to put in the work and to also have coaches that can balance the development with being successful is key. Having a coach that both values winning games, but also developing kids that "play the right way" is what we found worked best for my son. He was pushed by his coaches and his parents to always be a "team player" but, because he has always had a very competitive personality he valued the idea of winning and losing. I wouldn't be telling the truth if I said that there weren't conversations about only worrying about the things that he could control and that there wasn't anything he could do but play his best all the time, regardless of what the other kids were doing (or not doing). I believe this helped in his development, along with not pushing him to play "AAA" at an extremely early age. He wanted to from a very young age and my wife and I made the decision to do what we felt was going to be best for him as he grew and matured as a player and as a person. I played from the time I was 4/5 years old, and I agree with the prior messages about the best players at 10-12 aren't the best players at 15 or 16. I believe most of that is the "too much, too soon" part of it. I never wanted to see my son "burnout" because we did too much when he was in 6th and 7th grade.

This is the best comment on this entire thread... the term perspective was used and that is 100% on point. Some stuff isn't for everyone, and the player should dictate where they are playing and at what level. Then the ability for a family to allow that to happen comes into play. Let the player "drive the bus" and then use that to help shape the decisions being made based off of an individual situation. My son has aged out, but but started at a smaller organization and was very often the best player on the ice even when skating with kids 2 years older than him, we then made the decision to decline an offer from PPE and play PAHL AA for a few seasons at a larger organization and then he ultimately did move on and play on a few different AAA teams before he aged out. Had chances to play junior at different levels, but we were lucky that he was a good student and he decided to just focus on school after graduation. Very happy with the path he took and the friends both him and our family made through the journey. The cost, which was significant, was more than worth it when you consider the experiences, friends, and other connections all of us were lucky enough to make through hockey.

Then who is at fault? Players and parents who can and want to do it, the organizations who let the teams chart these courses, tournaments that recruit these teams, skills coaches who work with these players, PAHL, MidAm, or USA Hockey as a governing body. I guess my point is that you shouldn't be blaming the parents or the players for doing something that is readily available for anyone who wants to do it and has the ability to do it. So if everyone other than PPE and Vengeance continued to play PAHL "AA", do you not think that the players that are playing what you call "faux AAA" wouldn't all still get together under one or two teams/organizations and do the same thing? This box has been open and it isn't going to get shut no matter how much people don't like it. I've long advocated that the best way to possibly combat some of this is better education for parents and players at younger levels as they are entering the game, so they are aware of what the path looks like and what the odds of "making it" truly are. Until something like that happens, it doesn't make sense to be critical of the choices other people are making as far as it concerns their family and their finances.

This is the point that I was trying to make earlier, and all of this I feel ultimately comes down to a few things: 1. Can a player play at that level? Be it "AAA" or PAHL "AA" or another PAHL level. 2. What are the players/parents comfortable with as far as travel and financial commitment is concerned. I understand why people on here criticize the cost, but who's business is it to criticize families on how they choose to spend their money. I might not think that my nextdoor neighbor needs to spend $50,000 on a new car because a $30,000 car will do the same thing, but it's their money to spend, not mine.

Yes, that is very accurate. If you figure a team that has a volunteer coach vs. a paid coach is probably saving the group as a whole maybe $10k for a season, so there's a good bit of expense right there and then you add in playing additional "one off" games to fill a schedule someone has to foot the bill for ice and officials. It is ultimately up to the team what they are comfortable with spending and the amount of travel they are willing to do.

100% I would make an educated guess and and say you are probably in the high $4k - low $5k once you add in the "ice and other things". Travel expenses are their own animal, but I would guess the number I threw out above would be pretty accurate for just the hockey related expenses excluding travel.

100% correct, but call it what it really is... not "competition", a THREAT to their "little Crosby".

Yes, 100% agree. One other thing I would add is if you are interested in moving to a different organization or a higher level, take the time to talk to another parent who has a kid on that team, or in that organization and see what they say and what their view of that team/organization is. There's always a chance that a given team at a higher level might not be a good fit for numerous reasons, but the biggest issues I've heard about over the years have been: 1. Coach's style isn't a good fit. 2. Player wasn't ready for that level of intensity/commitment. 3. Not a good fit with other players/parents. 4. Financial commitment/travel schedule. Parents definitely need to do their research prior to making a decision because each of those issues can be addressed prior to jumping somewhere. Don't be afraid to reach out to a head coach and ask to speak with them get an idea of their philosophy on coaching and other aspects of what a season would look like.

I think that is where personal choice comes in. If there was better parental education when players were just becoming involved in the game, then the reality of .001 would resonate and parents would be put in a position to make a much more well informed decision. I'm also not saying that this is the best way to structure things, in fact I would argue that it isn't, but the reality of the situation is that this is the way that ALL youth sports are being structured now. Regardless of if we are talking about hockey, soccer, basketball, baseball, lacrosse, if a family chooses to participate on any advanced level, there is going to be a cost associated with moving up to a higher level. Every family will have a different level of comfort when it comes to pushing their player to develop. If the player doesn't want to attempt to be part of that .001 I don't have a problem with that, the same way I don't have a problem with a player who is pushing for that .001% opportunity. As long as players at all levels are getting a chance to continue to participate, I don't see a problem with it, but there should also not be a judgement passed on parents or players regardless of what end of the development spectrum they choose to pursue.

My kids have all aged out, but here's the advice I would give: Play at the highest level that your player is capable of playing and your personal economic situation allows. If you enjoy traveling on weekends and spending time with the parents, then do it. If you don't or your personal situation doesn't allow it, then don't do it. Hockey has changed, and the correct path isn't always a straight line anymore. Hockey, and ALL youth sports, has become a business and that's not going to change. If your player has the skill to play at a high level, do it... if your financial and social situation allows you to do it, do it... if you and the rest of your family are comfortable with it, do it. All anyone on here can do is give advice based off of what their experience and knowledge tells them. If someone doesn't agree, that's fine, but instead of attacking, share the difference of opinion and debate, no reason to get personal or go on the attack. Ok, back to hockey... With all the tournaments that are available now and with LiveBarn, if a player is really talented they more often than not get noticed. Players from PAHL teams get invited to Mid-Am Evaluation Camp. Very rarely do those kids get chosen, but they get the opportunity. From what I understand from speaking to evaluators the difference tends to come from the difference in the intensity of the game as the level of play ramps up. Regardless of what you have to say about "faux AAA" teams, if they are ranked in the 40's to 60's and the PAHL "AA" team is ranked in the 120's the difference between the teams is usually due to the teams strength of schedule. With a more difficult schedule usually comes a higher level of intensity and can a "good AA player" adapt to the speed, physicality, and intensity of a "AAA" game?

I would say 3 ways, one was already mentioned: 1. Are you getting asked to come to PPE, by people affiliated with PPE? 2. Let people from outside of Pittsburgh see the player and evaluate them. Most of those evaluators know that if you are in Buffalo or Detroit doing a camp or an evaluation weekend, they know that you are most probably not moving there to join a team, so the evaluation would, most likely, be accurate. 3. Go to clinics/camps with players that are playing on "high-end" teams and see with your own eyes where your player stacks up against those other players.

BeaverFalls, you made 2 very good points. Yes, the biggest issue right now is the lack of parental education which leads them to believe whatever they are told, and thus the arms race to be on the team with the most A's while not knowing where their player really is in the pecking order of players. If coach X tells them that Billy has a future these parents blindly follow it. Also, yes camps and lessons are key but eventually the skill level you are playing with and the size of the organization become key. It's not helpful to have a player with AA/AAA skill playing on an A major roster if they are just dominating.