fafa fohi Posted May 20, 2021 Author Share Posted May 20, 2021 2 hours ago, hockeyisgreat said: I wonder if those are the kids that Esmark thought were not good enough? I hope they field a competitive team and make Esmark feel pretty stupid! I would say competitive is top 60%. Hopefully I can come back on here in a year and say it's so. Forever the optimist. As an FYI, none of last years Icemen teams ( U18, U16 and U15 ) qualified for Midams this past season and if you look at the teams they played against and lost to, many were AA teams. @sadday4hockey makes a good point, lots of $$ for an extra A which makes you wonder had these teams simply played as a Tier 2 AA independent would they have made Midams and possibly Nationals. But then they wouldn’t get the AAA fees. Go figure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hockeyisgreat Posted May 20, 2021 Share Posted May 20, 2021 19 minutes ago, fafa fohi said: As an FYI, none of last years Icemen teams ( U18, U16 and U15 ) qualified for Midams this past season and if you look at the teams they played against and lost to, many were AA teams. @sadday4hockey makes a good point, lots of $$ for an extra A which makes you wonder had these teams simply played as a Tier 2 AA independent would they have made Midams and possibly Nationals. But then they wouldn’t get the AAA fees. Go figure. Yet 30 to 35 skaters were out there chasing that extra A. Hard to tell your kid he's not good enough to play AAA if he really wants to. That's what the tryout is for. Don't know what the answer is. If there is a demand why shouldn't an organization try to meet it. If the Icemen keep trying maybe they will get a team to Midams. Or maybe they will change their model to Tier 2. But for now they are meeting the demand. Good for them. As per most people on here all roads lead to beer league anyway. So people will spend their money however they want. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fafa fohi Posted May 20, 2021 Author Share Posted May 20, 2021 (edited) 1 hour ago, hockeyisgreat said: Yet 30 to 35 skaters were out there chasing that extra A. Hard to tell your kid he's not good enough to play AAA if he really wants to. That's what the tryout is for. Don't know what the answer is. If there is a demand why shouldn't an organization try to meet it. If the Icemen keep trying maybe they will get a team to Midams. Or maybe they will change their model to Tier 2. But for now they are meeting the demand. Good for them. As per most people on here all roads lead to beer league anyway. So people will spend their money however they want. I am no Carnac when I say there will ALWAYS be a demand. Hell, instead of five AAA 06 teams and since the demand is there, lets have a bakers dozen number of AAA teams in WPA. All I am saying is these organizations need to be transparent with regards to expectations. Talk to the parents of the Preds 06 AAA team and ask them if they were told they would compete at that level - they got destroyed last year by AAA teams and lost to AA teams. I am guessing those parents would have rather competed and qualified for Nationals at the Tier 2 AA level ( just as NP 06 did and props to them ) than go 12-23 and lose to AA teams while paying the AAA price tag. Caveat emptor. Edited May 21, 2021 by fafa fohi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nemesis8679 Posted May 21, 2021 Share Posted May 21, 2021 What was that saying about a fool and their money? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hockeyisgreat Posted May 21, 2021 Share Posted May 21, 2021 2 hours ago, fafa fohi said: I am no Carnac when I say there will ALWAYS be a demand. Hell, instead of five AAA 06 teams and since the demand is there, lets have a bakers dozen number of AAA teams in WPA. All I am saying is these organizations need to be transparent with regards to expectations. Talk to the parents of the Preds 06 AAA team and ask them if they were told they would compete at that level - they got destroyed last year by AAA teams and lost to AA teams. I am guessing those parents would have rather competed and qualified for Nationals at the Tier 2 AA level ( just as NP 06 did and props to them ) than go 12-23 and lose to AA teams while paying the AAA price tag. Caveat emptor. Yet the Preds keep rolling out teams at AAA that are not as competitive as other AAA teams. I can't argue with any of what you say. The Preds are going to have a U15 AAA team this year. Do we know how many kids from last years team came back. I will follow their results this year to see if they are improved. But yes from what I have learned here they can go to Tier 2 AA in December if they aren't competitive in Tier 1. I'm getting a pretty serious hockey education. Thanks guys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saucey Posted May 21, 2021 Share Posted May 21, 2021 4 hours ago, fafa fohi said: I am no Carnac when I say there will ALWAYS be a demand. Hell, instead of five AAA 06 teams and since the demand is there, lets have a bakers dozen number of AAA teams in WPA. All I am saying is these organizations need to be transparent with regards to expectations. Talk to the parents of the Preds 06 AAA team and ask them if they were told they would compete at that level - they got destroyed last year by AAA teams and lost to AA teams. I am guessing those parents would have rather competed and qualified for Nationals at the Tier 2 AA level ( just as NP 06 did and props to them ) than go 12-23 and lose to AA teams while paying the AAA price tag. Caveat emptor. NP 06 AA schedule from my hockey rankings shows that they played that Preds AAA team and won. ?♂️ 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twoboys Posted May 21, 2021 Share Posted May 21, 2021 Tier 2 Independent has the same fees as Tier 1. Fees are high for the most part because you have to pay for the coach. Only way you don’t is to have a parent coach or spread the cost out among every kid in the organization. Over the years the Icemen have fielded Tier 2 teams. I have a friend who had a kid on that team and last year was the first year that the 05 team was as Tier 1. My guess is that was because they joined a league and had to be Tier 1. Was it last year that U18 was Tier 2? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sadday4hockey Posted May 21, 2021 Share Posted May 21, 2021 On 5/19/2021 at 3:15 PM, HCK15 said: Esmark did field a very talented 07 Bantam team, so a good core is in the pipeline for U15 next season. Congratulations!! You should give yourself a pat on the back. Oh, wait........................ you already did. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hockey55 Posted May 22, 2021 Share Posted May 22, 2021 On 5/20/2021 at 6:12 PM, fafa fohi said: As an FYI, none of last years Icemen teams ( U18, U16 and U15 ) qualified for Midams this past season and if you look at the teams they played against and lost to, many were AA teams. @sadday4hockey makes a good point, lots of $$ for an extra A which makes you wonder had these teams simply played as a Tier 2 AA independent would they have made Midams and possibly Nationals. But then they wouldn’t get the AAA fees. Go figure. Wouldn’t get the third A and where would those coaches/owners get their money??! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PUCKCOVID19 Posted May 23, 2021 Share Posted May 23, 2021 5 hours ago, hockey55 said: Wouldn’t get the third A and where would those coaches/owners get their money??! the first year that they had the 2005 team, they finished in top 20. (18th). that would've been top spot for Mid ams in tier 2..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ynot02 Posted May 23, 2021 Share Posted May 23, 2021 1 hour ago, PUCKCOVID19 said: the first year that they had the 2005 team, they finished in top 20. (18th). that would've been top spot for Mid ams in tier 2..... That 2005 Icemen team was Tier 2 that season, not AAA, and they weren’t the top spot. The top MIDAM/PA Bantam team that season was 2004 Mt Lebo, rated 92.77. There were 8 teams in MIDAM/PA rated higher than that Icemen team’s 87.10 rating. Just trying to understand your post... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saucey Posted May 23, 2021 Share Posted May 23, 2021 8 hours ago, Ynot02 said: That 2005 Icemen team was Tier 2 that season, not AAA, and they weren’t the top spot. The top MIDAM/PA Bantam team that season was 2004 Mt Lebo, rated 92.77. There were 8 teams in MIDAM/PA rated higher than that Icemen team’s 87.10 rating. Just trying to understand your post... Icemen as an organization has fielded one AAA team. That was the team with the owners son and their first year. After that, the highest level was AA. Totally the story of the dad wanting to fulfill his kids dream. They will form teams just to form teams, regardless of skill level. If there is no other option to fill the roster and the parent is writing a check, you can go there and say you are AAA. Are you doing your kid any good? No. You do not create AAA players by playing on that kind of team. Does your kid get 'exposure'? No. Scouts go to certain events and tournaments that teams like the Icemen do not get into. Can the coach guarantee your kid will make NAHL or anything else? I mean, if you are listening to that kind of pitch and buying it, can I have access to your check book? There are no guarantees. If I wanted to call my kid AAA, this is the worst choice out there. All you are doing is doubling the cost of your kid playing hockey. Will your kid become a better player? No. I have known a lot of kids that went there who play the same as before they went. So what are you paying for, exactly? Just the ability to say you are AAA. 1 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PUCKCOVID19 Posted May 24, 2021 Share Posted May 24, 2021 13 hours ago, Saucey said: Icemen as an organization has fielded one AAA team. That was the team with the owners son and their first year. After that, the highest level was AA. Totally the story of the dad wanting to fulfill his kids dream. They will form teams just to form teams, regardless of skill level. If there is no other option to fill the roster and the parent is writing a check, you can go there and say you are AAA. Are you doing your kid any good? No. You do not create AAA players by playing on that kind of team. Does your kid get 'exposure'? No. Scouts go to certain events and tournaments that teams like the Icemen do not get into. Can the coach guarantee your kid will make NAHL or anything else? I mean, if you are listening to that kind of pitch and buying it, can I have access to your check book? There are no guarantees. If I wanted to call my kid AAA, this is the worst choice out there. All you are doing is doubling the cost of your kid playing hockey. Will your kid become a better player? No. I have known a lot of kids that went there who play the same as before they went. So what are you paying for, exactly? Just the ability to say you are AAA. Last I checked ALL kids are going to end up in the same place ( beer league). so what's it really matter if someone wants to play a more competitive schedule, 2-3 ice slots a week all season, and has numerous friends on the team. Who cares, are you writing the checks? So many act like this or that team blah blah blah. BUT maybe the families there, its a fit for them and their happy with the coaching....... Not to mention their numbers where better then the Preds AAA, Lebo AAA, and Veng AAA....... so they must be doing something right ? They had more supply and demand then any of those other 3 teams........ 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hockeyisgreat Posted May 24, 2021 Share Posted May 24, 2021 11 hours ago, PUCKCOVID19 said: Last I checked ALL kids are going to end up in the same place ( beer league). so what's it really matter if someone wants to play a more competitive schedule, 2-3 ice slots a week all season, and has numerous friends on the team. Who cares, are you writing the checks? So many act like this or that team blah blah blah. BUT maybe the families there, its a fit for them and their happy with the coaching....... Not to mention their numbers where better then the Preds AAA, Lebo AAA, and Veng AAA....... so they must be doing something right ? They had more supply and demand then any of those other 3 teams........ Couldn't agree with you more. Glad there are so many opportunities for kids to play. I still say the overall quality of play in Western Pa is as good as it has ever been and appears to only be getting better. Can't wait to see what the 08 and under groups are going to be like in a few more years at U16. End game is being a part of something growing up that teaches teamwork, discipline and life coping skills to a whole lot of kids. Thanks to all the organizations and volunteers that make it happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sadday4hockey Posted May 24, 2021 Share Posted May 24, 2021 11 hours ago, PUCKCOVID19 said: Not to mention their numbers where better then the Preds AAA, Lebo AAA, and Veng AAA....... so they must be doing something right ? They had more supply and demand then any of those other 3 teams........ So now it's about quantity at tryouts and not quality? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saucey Posted May 24, 2021 Share Posted May 24, 2021 14 minutes ago, sadday4hockey said: So now it's about quantity at tryouts and not quality? To know that, your kid went to all those tryouts and you have a check book for the Icemen. If kids got better playing there, I would be quiet. A lot of these AAA options are not AAA, but the kids do seem to improve. Not so with the Icemen 'Hockey is so much better in Western Pa'. Except this program isn't contributing to that statement. Parent demand does not equal development. Shifting players to more expensive hockey without development does not grow the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hockey55 Posted May 28, 2021 Share Posted May 28, 2021 On 5/24/2021 at 8:40 AM, Saucey said: To know that, your kid went to all those tryouts and you have a check book for the Icemen. If kids got better playing there, I would be quiet. A lot of these AAA options are not AAA, but the kids do seem to improve. Not so with the Icemen 'Hockey is so much better in Western Pa'. Except this program isn't contributing to that statement. Parent demand does not equal development. Shifting players to more expensive hockey without development does not grow the game. They are really great salesmen there at Frozen Pond though ? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VTtransplant Posted May 28, 2021 Share Posted May 28, 2021 On 5/24/2021 at 8:40 AM, Saucey said:Parent demand does not equal development. Shifting players to more expensive hockey without development does not grow the game. I’m not trying to be a d*ck by asking this so I hope you don’t take it that way, but are you personally doing anything in WPA to help grow the game? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dazedandconfused Posted May 28, 2021 Share Posted May 28, 2021 @VT, I think your transplant is going to be very successful. Welcome to The Burgh. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VTtransplant Posted May 28, 2021 Share Posted May 28, 2021 I am really not trying to start anything I am just wondering if the people complaining about youth hockey in the Pittsburgh area have any idea what it’s like in a state like mine. Hockey is non existent here for the most part. The small amount of players and volunteers we have are dedicated though, which is really great to see. I am excited to come to a “big” hockey market like Pittsburgh and I hope my son will thrive there, but just judging from this website alone it really seems like there is a giant brick wall between the people that think the only organization worth anything is the Penguins Elite and the people that think all the others are worth talking about. From an outsiders point of view, I see having more options as a good thing. It also really pains me to see the D1 programs at RMU fall by the wayside. That is definitely not good for hockey in Pittsburgh, neither is the Pens losing in the first round. But I guess I’ll shut up now though because I really have zero idea what I am talking about! LOL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saucey Posted May 28, 2021 Share Posted May 28, 2021 (edited) 2 hours ago, VTtransplant said: I am really not trying to start anything I am just wondering if the people complaining about youth hockey in the Pittsburgh area have any idea what it’s like in a state like mine. Hockey is non existent here for the most part. The small amount of players and volunteers we have are dedicated though, which is really great to see. I am excited to come to a “big” hockey market like Pittsburgh and I hope my son will thrive there, but just judging from this website alone it really seems like there is a giant brick wall between the people that think the only organization worth anything is the Penguins Elite and the people that think all the others are worth talking about. From an outsiders point of view, I see having more options as a good thing. It also really pains me to see the D1 programs at RMU fall by the wayside. That is definitely not good for hockey in Pittsburgh, neither is the Pens losing in the first round. But I guess I’ll shut up now though because I really have zero idea what I am talking about! LOL 4 hours ago, VTtransplant said: I’m not trying to be a d*ck by asking this so I hope you don’t take it that way, but are you personally doing anything in WPA to help grow the game? It irritated me. Does so many hours at the rink that it hurt my marriage at one point suffice? I've definitely earned my opinions. Edited May 28, 2021 by Saucey Repeat comment deleted Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dazedandconfused Posted May 31, 2021 Share Posted May 31, 2021 It appears as though though the same fate as Esmark 06 may have befell the Icemen 05 group. Last week there was a roster on the website and then...... there wasn't Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saucey Posted May 31, 2021 Share Posted May 31, 2021 1 hour ago, dazedandconfused said: It appears as though though the same fate as Esmark 06 may have befell the Icemen 05 group. Last week there was a roster on the website and then...... there wasn't Some of the other rosters may disappear. I know there are kids on the ones still listed that got spots on other teams. Team shopping. Gotta crank up the BS meter a little higher... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hockey22 Posted June 3, 2021 Share Posted June 3, 2021 On 5/31/2021 at 6:08 PM, dazedandconfused said: It appears as though though the same fate as Esmark 06 may have befell the Icemen 05 group. Last week there was a roster on the website and then...... there wasn't That is a large assumption on your part and 100% inaccurate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dazedandconfused Posted June 3, 2021 Share Posted June 3, 2021 Okay, so it's back. They should have a fine season in PAHL A-Major Black, possibly the pre-season favorite. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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