'Low level' AAA' grow the game?

[Saucey]

It is repeated on this Board constantly how having 6 to 8 'AAA' teams is growing the game in Western Pa'. I challenge the long term sustainability of this notion. We have a long term problem around here with this trend.

The biggest fallacy with this is that PAHL programs in general are not using their resources in the minor levels. Few are doing anything but concentrating on their top teams. The AA and AAA get all the ice, etc. So when these programs need talent, they are not pulling from their own ranks. They are raiding the programs that do a good job developing their young, less experienced players, and there aren't that many of them. That means there are not enough players to go around. Consolidation happens into one or two super teams, they have no one to compete against, and have to travel to play. Increases the cost of hockey and does not grow the game. Increasing costs creates a barrier to entry. AA play should not require travel outside of PAHL. And that's what the low level teams are, AA.

This is driven by coaches and parents who are only interested in their own child. What do they care if the lower levels are developing? Their kid is taken care of.

I'm sorry, this is not growing the game. Parents of kids who are playing minor levels, you need to become active in your boards. All the eggs should not be placed in one or two baskets. Directors of hockey ops, other people are also paying for their kids to play. Their children also deserve to develop. And we know kids develop in different stages, so they should be given that opportunity.

 

 

 

[forbin]

I agree with some of this, however to play devil's advocate here: Why should I care about the development of other kids if their parents don't care about the development of mine? 

[aaaahockey]

I think you are making a lot of good points here. One caveat I think you should also remember, however, is that parents who are invested enough to run for a board are probably already getting their kids outside development opportunities or paying for the extra As somewhere.  Often I've seen kids, especially at the minor level but even at the lower A major level completely checked out and the parents don't want to spend the extra $ for skills coaching or development even WITHIN the organization. They are just having fun.  

[hockey57410]

43 minutes ago, Saucey said:

It is repeated on this Board constantly how having 6 to 8 'AAA' teams is growing the game in Western Pa'. I challenge the long term sustainability of this notion. We have a long term problem around here with this trend.

The biggest fallacy with this is that PAHL programs in general are not using their resources in the minor levels. Few are doing anything but concentrating on their top teams. The AA and AAA get all the ice, etc. So when these programs need talent, they are not pulling from their own ranks. They are raiding the programs that do a good job developing their young, less experienced players, and there aren't that many of them. That means there are not enough players to go around. Consolidation happens into one or two super teams, they have no one to compete against, and have to travel to play. Increases the cost of hockey and does not grow the game. Increasing costs creates a barrier to entry. AA play should not require travel outside of PAHL. And that's what the low level teams are, AA.

This is driven by coaches and parents who are only interested in their own child. What do they care if the lower levels are developing? Their kid is taken care of.

I'm sorry, this is not growing the game. Parents of kids who are playing minor levels, you need to become active in your boards. All the eggs should not be placed in one or two baskets. Directors of hockey ops, other people are also paying for their kids to play. Their children also deserve to develop. And we know kids develop in different stages, so they should be given that opportunity.

 

 

 

Easier said than done.  Devil's advocate is the difference between the kids on "lower" teams who probably should be playing in a club league like RMU getting the same amount of ice time as players who wish to play at a higher level.  I'm not sure that your argument holds up.

[forbin]

36 minutes ago, aaaahockey said:

I think you are making a lot of good points here. One caveat I think you should also remember, however, is that parents who are invested enough to run for a board are probably already getting their kids outside development opportunities or paying for the extra As somewhere.  Often I've seen kids, especially at the minor level but even at the lower A major level completely checked out and the parents don't want to spend the extra $ for skills coaching or development even WITHIN the organization. They are just having fun.  

100% agree with this. There is a clear difference between hockey parents and parents whose kid happens to play hockey.

In my opinion growing the game and developing players are two different conversations. Growing the game to me means the little pens program and other inexpensive opportunities for kids to start playing and hopefully fall in love with it. It means opening the door to kids who would have never even thought of trying it in the first place.

Developing players to me requires the players drive to want to get better and availability of ice time which is severely lacking in most PAHL organizations. You can't expect a kid to develop with a single 50 minute practice a week. Exactly why those kids often do additional training or play for multiple teams. I stand by the fact that there are 100-150 kids at each age level who are skilled and have the desire to play a competitive AAA style schedule, and really no reason why they should be pushed back to PAHL teams simply because the extra A isn't "legit". Maybe if PAHL played more games per season or offered more ice time more parents wouldn't feel the need to look elsewhere. 

[Saucey]

45 minutes ago, forbin said:

100% agree with this. There is a clear difference between hockey parents and parents whose kid happens to play hockey.

In my opinion growing the game and developing players are two different conversations. Growing the game to me means the little pens program and other inexpensive opportunities for kids to start playing and hopefully fall in love with it. It means opening the door to kids who would have never even thought of trying it in the first place.

Developing players to me requires the players drive to want to get better and availability of ice time which is severely lacking in most PAHL organizations. You can't expect a kid to develop with a single 50 minute practice a week. Exactly why those kids often do additional training or play for multiple teams. I stand by the fact that there are 100-150 kids at each age level who are skilled and have the desire to play a competitive AAA style schedule, and really no reason why they should be pushed back to PAHL teams simply because the extra A isn't "legit". Maybe if PAHL played more games per season or offered more ice time more parents wouldn't feel the need to look elsewhere. 

If we had 150 AAA players around here we would see more than one or two players making the national development team. Small hockey market with a lot of wishful thinking.

[forbin]

4 minutes ago, Saucey said:

If we had 150 AAA players around here we would see more than one or two players making the national development team. Small hockey market with a lot of wishful thinking.

Michigan has 10 AAA organizations (MAHA T1) with one team per birth year and only has 4 players on the U17 national development team. Is Pittsburgh a small hockey market? Absolutely. But with the right model it could be right there with other states. Instead we all scoff at the "non legit "AAA teams. 

If there was a legitimate Western PA AAA league with say 6 organizations each fielding 1 team per birth year the competition would be intense and the bragging rights would be on the table every year. It would also offer more opportunity for scouting and exposure in my opinion. Much like MAHA does. 

[gatorlb]

10 minutes ago, forbin said:

Michigan has 10 AAA organizations (MAHA T1) with one team per birth year and only has 4 players on the U17 national development team. Is Pittsburgh a small hockey market? Absolutely. But with the right model it could be right there with other states. Instead we all scoff at the "non legit "AAA teams. 

If there was a legitimate Western PA AAA league with say 6 organizations each fielding 1 team per birth year the competition would be intense and the bragging rights would be on the table every year. It would also offer more opportunity for scouting and exposure in my opinion. Much like MAHA does. 

Michigan has 8 AAA orgs. 
If you are comparing, a more fair comparison would be Michigan to Mid-Am.  Mid-Am has about 10% more registered skaters at most ages so would expect 10% more AAA teams across the region if a similar model was used.  There are a lot of differences that make this not such a great comparison but I would start there.

[Saucey]

11 minutes ago, forbin said:

Michigan has 10 AAA organizations (MAHA T1) with one team per birth year and only has 4 players on the U17 national development team. Is Pittsburgh a small hockey market? Absolutely. But with the right model it could be right there with other states. Instead we all scoff at the "non legit "AAA teams. 

If there was a legitimate Western PA AAA league with say 6 organizations each fielding 1 team per birth year the competition would be intense and the bragging rights would be on the table every year. It would also offer more opportunity for scouting and exposure in my opinion. Much like MAHA does. 

So......six teams that play each other with PPE most likely winning all the games? Or are you going to exclude PPE, because I doubt they'll play. You mean..... a different AA league.

I hate BY model for our area. If your skill puts you at the top team, that's where you go.

If people are dissatisfied with PAHL, I get it, but current situation stinks.

[champeen]

let's exclude PPE for now.... if you had 5 aaa teams at every birth year, how many of those teams would be top 5 in Tier 2?  top 10?  if you can't say you would be a contender for a tier 2 national championship, then why claim to be aaa?   

[Saucey]

2 hours ago, aaaahockey said:

I think you are making a lot of good points here. One caveat I think you should also remember, however, is that parents who are invested enough to run for a board are probably already getting their kids outside development opportunities or paying for the extra As somewhere.  Often I've seen kids, especially at the minor level but even at the lower A major level completely checked out and the parents don't want to spend the extra $ for skills coaching or development even WITHIN the organization. They are just having fun.  

Those kids belong in in house. Travel hockey is too much for those kids. Used to be, low level hockey teams weren't traveling.

And I hated he idea that high level hockey means no fun. 

[Lifelongbender]

3 hours ago, Saucey said:

It is repeated on this Board constantly how having 6 to 8 'AAA' teams is growing the game in Western Pa'. I challenge the long term sustainability of this notion. We have a long term problem around here with this trend.

The biggest fallacy with this is that PAHL programs in general are not using their resources in the minor levels. Few are doing anything but concentrating on their top teams. The AA and AAA get all the ice, etc. So when these programs need talent, they are not pulling from their own ranks. They are raiding the programs that do a good job developing their young, less experienced players, and there aren't that many of them. That means there are not enough players to go around. Consolidation happens into one or two super teams, they have no one to compete against, and have to travel to play. Increases the cost of hockey and does not grow the game. Increasing costs creates a barrier to entry. AA play should not require travel outside of PAHL. And that's what the low level teams are, AA.

This is driven by coaches and parents who are only interested in their own child. What do they care if the lower levels are developing? Their kid is taken care of.

I'm sorry, this is not growing the game. Parents of kids who are playing minor levels, you need to become active in your boards. All the eggs should not be placed in one or two baskets. Directors of hockey ops, other people are also paying for their kids to play. Their children also deserve to develop. And we know kids develop in different stages, so they should be given that opportunity.

 

 

 

This conversation gets MUCH worse if you concentrate on girls' hockey because there are fewer players.

MUCH worse.

[hockeyisgreat]

1 hour ago, forbin said:

 

Developing players to me requires the players drive to want to get better and availability of ice time which is severely lacking in most PAHL organizations. You can't expect a kid to d

This is the bottom line.  Especially by 14U.  Parents can want it for their kids but the kids have to have the drive.  Bottom line is asking the kid where he wants to try out.  They have a sense by then of where they belong.  Some want to reach. Why not let them.   If AAA offers more ice and more practice whats wrong with it?  And I understand a weak AAA team gets crushed but so what!  As long as the parents can afford it and it's the kids idea let em tryout where they want.

[Saucey]

5 minutes ago, champeen said:

let's exclude PPE for now.... if you had 5 aaa teams at every birth year, how many of those teams would be top 5 in Tier 2?  top 10?  if you can't say you would be a contender for a tier 2 national championship, then why claim to be aaa?   

Absolutely, you get it. We don't have six to 8 AAA teams when some of them aren't in the top of Tier II obviously. But if we are talking about AAA, you are not talking about AAA if you exclude PPE. That's exactly what these AAA teams want to do, ignore PPE and pretend they are AAA.

[Saucey]

3 minutes ago, Lifelongbender said:

This conversation gets MUCH worse if you concentrate on girls' hockey because there are fewer players.

MUCH worse.

Absolutely. Exemplifies my point, you have no players in the pipeline you've got nothing eventually.

[Saucey]

2 minutes ago, hockeyisgreat said:

This is the bottom line.  Especially by 14U.  Parents can want it for their kids but the kids have to have the drive.  Bottom line is asking the kid where he wants to try out.  They have a sense by then of where they belong.  Some want to reach. Why not let them.   If AAA offers more ice and more practice whats wrong with it?  And I understand a weak AAA team gets crushed but so what!  As long as the parents can afford it and it's the kids idea let em tryout where they want.

So says the parent of a AAA kid on Icemen. Because I don't think it helps our area. I get it a parent doesn't care. You just want your kids happy. And I don't believe that kids find it fun to be beat down by large margins. Again, it's parents driving development.

But Mid Am or someone interested in developing the game, should be looking at this trend.

[hockeyisgreat]

1 minute ago, Saucey said:

So says the parent of a AAA kid on Icemen. Because I don't think it helps our area. I get it a parent doesn't care. You just want your kids happy. And I don't believe that kids find it fun to be beat down by large margins. Again, it's parents driving development.

But Mid Am or someone interested in developing the game, should be looking at this trend.

Actually he wouldn't try out there. His choice! Did try out at Esmark and didn't make the team.   Now I'm glad as he would have been crushed to have made it and then have them tell him they couldn't find enough good players to have a team.   So you have no clue what I am talking about!

[forbin]

5 minutes ago, Saucey said:

Absolutely, you get it. We don't have six to 8 AAA teams when some of them aren't in the top of Tier II obviously. But if we are talking about AAA, you are not talking about AAA if you exclude PPE. That's exactly what these AAA teams want to do, ignore PPE and pretend they are AAA.

Why does PPE have to be the only game in town? Because they have a fancy arena and the Penguins logo on their chest? And inherited an already good system in the Hornets and then turned their back on the values of that organization by bringing in players from across the country to take the spots of local kids? Then refusing to play other AAA teams because they are to proud to admit they might lose? 
 

PAHL needs to offer an outlet for the kids that want more ice time and more games. Right now that outlet is independent “faux AAA” teams. If the PAHL had a AAA or, f*ck it even call it AA+ or AA Hybrid for all I care, division would it legitimatize these faux AAA teams for everyone?  

[hockeyisgreat]

Saucey, did you have a kid play?  Did you tell him where to try out or let him make his own choice?  I just want to understand where you are coming from.  

[Saucey]

14 minutes ago, hockeyisgreat said:

Saucey, did you have a kid play?  Did you tell him where to try out or let him make his own choice?  I just want to understand where you are coming from.  

Didn't have a choice until midget.

And that was dependent on his skill and willingness to work. I won't send a child to college just because they want to, pay for it and there is no indication that they would do well or work. That's not good for the child or my pocket book.

My background is definitely not what ever the child wants they get.

[Saucey]

44 minutes ago, forbin said:

Why does PPE have to be the only game in town? Because they have a fancy arena and the Penguins logo on their chest? And inherited an already good system in the Hornets and then turned their back on the values of that organization by bringing in players from across the country to take the spots of local kids? Then refusing to play other AAA teams because they are to proud to admit they might lose? 
 

PAHL needs to offer an outlet for the kids that want more ice time and more games. Right now that outlet is independent “faux AAA” teams. If the PAHL had a AAA or, f*ck it even call it AA+ or AA Hybrid for all I care, division would it legitimatize these faux AAA teams for everyone?  

I'm not saying that. I have lots of criticisms of PPE and I don't like what happened to hockey around here when they came in. But you have to go through them. So, to exclude them from the conversation, pretend they don't exist, makes no sense to me, either. They may refuse to play in the regular season, but who is really challenging them in districts? Esmark every once in a while. Vengeance 06 team came within four goals. Again....we don't have a AAA league of 6 to 8 teams.

[hockeyisgreat]

23 minutes ago, Saucey said:

Didn't have a choice until midget.

And that was dependent on his skill and willingness to work. I won't send a child to college just because they want to, pay for it and there is no indication that they would do well or work. That's not good for the child or my pocket book.

My background is definitely not what ever the child wants they get.

Wow you finally get it. Mine didn't start out at the top of ADM. Didn't play birthyear as a 10 year old.  He worked his way up. Absoulutely loves the game. Nothing he would rather do than play Hockey. Never misses a practice or a lesson. Always wants to get better. Not the best kid on his team but willing to work hard.  Only has 4 more years. He might have the dream of playing beyond but he would need to put in a whole lot of more work and he knows it still might not be enough. Most importantly it's his dream and not mine. He knows that playing for the Hitmen or Predators isn't getting him anywhere any faster.  He also thinks that the Vengeance and SHAHA are legit AAA teams.  He's played with those kids and can always tell me who they are by watching them on the ice.  My background is whatever the child is willing to work for.

[Saucey]

1 hour ago, forbin said:

Why does PPE have to be the only game in town? Because they have a fancy arena and the Penguins logo on their chest? And inherited an already good system in the Hornets and then turned their back on the values of that organization by bringing in players from across the country to take the spots of local kids? Then refusing to play other AAA teams because they are to proud to admit they might lose? 
 

PAHL needs to offer an outlet for the kids that want more ice time and more games. Right now that outlet is independent “faux AAA” teams. If the PAHL had a AAA or, f*ck it even call it AA+ or AA Hybrid for all I care, division would it legitimatize these faux AAA teams for everyone?  

Not for me. There are sufficient levels already in PAHL for the level of play that exists. You are discussing a separate league for tier Ii outside PAHL, really.

And what are you talking about, PAHL has to do more? PAHL teams can play as many games as they want so long as they complete the PAHL schedule. Lots of PAHL teams do just that. 

Your question starts to get more to the heart of things. Lots of these AAA teams want a crazy amount of games and if they are within an organization with tryouts, you may end up with parents who don't want to do that. So many of these teams want to hand pick their players.

80 games a season is nuts for children. 

[sadday4hockey]

There is no competition for PPE. That's exactly how they want it. As soon as the Vengeance got all those 08's to stay together when they hit 10U, the evil empire sprung into action under the watchful eye of Trevor Edwards. They created the Little 66'ers Elite Mite program. Just think about that name, Elite Mite Program. Each year at "The Jam" they recruit 6 and 7 year olds heavily in an effort to never allow this to happen again.

[Saucey]

3 minutes ago, hockeyisgreat said:

Wow you finally get it. Mine didn't start out at the top of ADM. Didn't play birthyear as a 10 year old.  He worked his way up. Absoulutely loves the game. Nothing he would rather do than play Hockey. Never misses a practice or a lesson. Always wants to get better. Not the best kid on his team but willing to work hard.  Only has 4 more years. He might have the dream of playing beyond but he would need to put in a whole lot of more work and he knows it still might not be enough. Most importantly it's his dream and not mine. He knows that playing for the Hitmen or Predators isn't getting him anywhere any faster.  He also thinks that the Vengeance and SHAHA are legit AAA teams.  He's played with those kids and can always tell me who they are by watching them on the ice.  My background is whatever the child is willing to work for.

There is so much you need. Size, skill, willingness to work. Luck. Connections. Money. You can have all that and still not make it to the chel or college hockey.