Jump to content

'Low level' AAA' grow the game?


Recommended Posts

3 minutes ago, sadday4hockey said:

There is no competition for PPE. That's exactly how they want it. As soon as the Vengeance got all those 08's to stay together when they hit 10U, the evil empire sprung into action under the watchful eye of Trevor Edwards. They created the Little 66'ers Elite Mite program. Just think about that name, Elite Mite Program. Each year at "The Jam" they recruit 6 and 7 year olds heavily in an effort to never allow this to happen again.

Never said they are good for hockey.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, hockeyisgreat said:

Actually he wouldn't try out there. His choice! Did try out at Esmark and didn't make the team.   Now I'm glad as he would have been crushed to have made it and then have them tell him they couldn't find enough good players to have a team.   So you have no clue what I am talking about!

I hear this about Esmark, that they are upfront about the skill that came to try out. I actually don't think Esmark is a pretender program.  They do give kids exposure. Good on your child.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 minutes ago, Saucey said:

There is so much you need. Size, skill, willingness to work. Luck. Connections. Money. You can have all that and still not make it to the chel or college hockey.

Exactly why at the end of the day none of this really even matters. I doubt there is a parent on this board who has a kid playing right now that will end up playing professional hockey. We are all just a bunch of grumpy dads arguing with strangers on the internet about a fake extra A. 

  • Fist Bump 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

13 minutes ago, Saucey said:

There is so much you need. Size, skill, willingness to work. Luck. Connections. Money. You can have all that and still not make it to the chel or college hockey.

First time going through this and I'm starting to understand. The one above I don't like is the connections part.   I think the good AAA teams are like the club that once you are in the only way you get out is to give up.  The thing I don't like about SHAHA and Veng are that they started young and have minimal turnover.  I feel like you have to be 10 times better at tryouts to have a chance at making the team.  That is one of the reasons Esmark was attractive. Kids with no history were competing for positions.  I still say they could have tried to coach those kids up. Also why let them compete for 4 days if they weren't good enough. They knew after day 1 if my kid wasn't good enough. They should have cut him and let him move on instead of exhausting him for the rest of his tryouts.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 minutes ago, forbin said:

Exactly why at the end of the day none of this really even matters. I doubt there is a parent on this board who has a kid playing right now that will end up playing professional hockey. We are all just a bunch of grumpy dads arguing with strangers on the internet about a fake extra A. 

So should we tell our kids to give up the dream now?  What does that tell them?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, hockeyisgreat said:

First time going through this and I'm starting to understand. The one above I don't like is the connections part.   I think the good AAA teams are like the club that once you are in the only way you get out is to give up.  The thing I don't like about SHAHA and Veng are that they started young and have minimal turnover.  I feel like you have to be 10 times better at tryouts to have a chance at making the team.  That is one of the reasons Esmark was attractive. Kids with no history were competing for positions.  I still say they could have tried to coach those kids up. Also why let them compete for 4 days if they weren't good enough. They knew after day 1 if my kid wasn't good enough. They should have cut him and let him move on instead of exhausting him for the rest of his tryouts.

As others have observed, organizations are trying really hard to reach parents younger and younger, to lock them in. There is money to made from those that don't know any better.

There is no AAA hockey that is recognized as such till 14u. Till you can compete for a National title. Gotta lock em in.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just now, hockeyisgreat said:

So should we tell our kids to give up the dream now?  What does that tell them?

No that's not what I am saying in the slightest. My kid wants to play the highest level hockey he can. He wants to be on the ice every single day. And I do and will continue to do whatever I can to facilitate that as long as my paychecks don't bounce. I make a comfortable living that I am lucky enough to afford for all my kids to pursue their passion. Some people on this board have a different mindset and there's nothing wrong with that. I'm not gonna tell anyone how to spend their money. What I am saying is that these arguments over what is consider a legitimate AAA program are stupid because in the end who really cares? Johnny who played at PPE and Billy who played at Preds are most likely gonna be playing in the same A level beer league down the road. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 minutes ago, hockeyisgreat said:

So should we tell our kids to give up the dream now?  What does that tell them?

No, I mean, you all are telling me that your child gets to tell you what they want to do.

Come on. There are ways to guide your child without 'crushing their dream'. They all say they want to be NFL players and what not.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, forbin said:

No that's not what I am saying in the slightest. My kid wants to play the highest level hockey he can. He wants to be on the ice every single day. And I do and will continue to do whatever I can to facilitate that as long as my paychecks don't bounce. I make a comfortable living that I am lucky enough to afford for all my kids to pursue their passion. Some people on this board have a different mindset and there's nothing wrong with that. I'm not gonna tell anyone how to spend their money. What I am saying is that these arguments over what is consider a legitimate AAA program are stupid because in the end who really cares? Johnny who played at PPE and Billy who played at Preds are most likely gonna be playing in the same A level beer league down the road. 

That's a parent perspective. That doesn't mean that is helpful to growing hockey around here. And yes, they all end up in beer league.

So many don't understand what you just said. They think playing for these teams will get their kid somewhere.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hockey as every sport will always be a pryamid. It is lonely at the top, the better you are the less piers you will have so you will have to travel to other markets. In Tier 1 it is seperated into Tier 1 Elite the teams in the top 25/30, "PPE Barons" these teams will play each other and are usally good competetion. The next bracket is teams falling in the 30 to 75. Typically their are 2-3 teams like "Vengeance, Esmark, Shaha, Mt. Lebo" Sometimes these teams can shift to elite or vice versa. Next is the bottom of Tier 1 which starts to mix in with the top of tier 2 and this is where we get the argument of why are you tier 1, you should just be tier 2. Why don't we just get rid of tier 2. You pick your organzation based on factors like coaching, and ice time. Obvisly these options can cost more or less. Some have the benifit of playing in a league like PAHL or even PIHL. I think in the future you will see some leagues pop up that will chalenge PAHL and even USA Hockey. Black Bear ownership group is making a play on the Pittsburgh market, they will start their own leagues, RMU and Baierl/North Pitt have inhouse leagues, Alpha started its own inhouse school league. To get back on track, when my son came up through, I would here the A-Major parents bitch about the AA parents and the AA bitch about the AAA and the AAA about the AAA Elites. In reality all these teams are just a spot in line and everyone will always bitch about the ones in front and spin it in their favor. Just read back through some of this message board. North Pitt 06 beat the Preds, why would those preds parents pay to play since a so called AA team beat them and they are AAA. Iceman suck cause they are not AAA and those kids/parents are not allowed to spend money on more ice time and coaching "not saying it is better, just another fee. So again, lets just get rid of Tier 2 and make everyone just one big group. Maybe you will be good enough to play on a top 10 team in the country or maybe you be on the 6345 team. 

 

As I have said in the past, do your research, spend what you feel comfortable spending and do whats best for your family. 

 

Also stop blaming Orginazations, Coaches, Teams and other  players cause little Johnny did not develop as you thought he should, their are lots of volenteers and good people putting time into youth sports, but you and your child are ultimatly responsible for making the choices and putting in the work to develop. 

 

Feel free to look at My hockey rankings for the district, it will give a general idea of where you kids team ranked overall. Here is top 10 for midam 14u for the season the just ended.

 

1 Team logo Pittsburgh Penguins Elite 06 AAA (PA) 25-12-3 94.99 1.25 93.74
Team Website
2 Cleveland Barons 06 AAA (OH) 37-19-5 94.09 1.05 93.05
Team Website
3 South Hills Panthers 06 AAA (PA) 14-17-10 92.27 -0.12 92.39
Team Website
4 Ohio Blue Jackets 06 AAA (OH) 20-30-4 91.88 -0.20 92.08
Team Website
5 Pittsburgh Vengeance 06 AAA (PA) 27-18-3 91.75 0.50 91.25
Team Website Team Instagram
6 Tri-State Spartans 06 AAA (OH) 23-21-2 90.89 0.43 90.45
Team Website
7 Indy Jr Fuel 06 AAA (IN) 18-30-0 89.49 -1.06 90.55
Team Website
8 Team logo North Pittsburgh Wildcats (#681) AA (PA) 35-11-1 88.71 2.13 86.59
Team Website
9 Allegheny Badgers (#759) 06 AA (PA) 36-10-3 88.64 2.35 86.30
 
10 Steel City Ice Renegades (#859) AA (PA) 38-20-5 88.30 1.40 86.91

 

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 5/24/2021 at 12:12 PM, Saucey said:

Those kids belong in in house. Travel hockey is too much for those kids. Used to be, low level hockey teams weren't traveling.

And I hated he idea that high level hockey means no fun. 

This is an underated idea - we should have half the travel teams and 10 times the rec teams. 

  • Like 2
  • 100 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 5/24/2021 at 2:15 PM, forbin said:

Exactly why at the end of the day none of this really even matters. I doubt there is a parent on this board who has a kid playing right now that will end up playing professional hockey. We are all just a bunch of grumpy dads arguing with strangers on the internet about a fake extra A. 

I agree and I don't. My main purpose in writing this post was to talk about whether the way this is working grows the game. It's just developed into, 'it's my money let me spend it how I want'.Supports my belief that our market is parent and pocket book driven, not development driven  I think playing a sport is worth it. This new company coming in, I heard they just make things more expensive. 

It's such a fun game. I'd like to see entry points at any age and income.

Ah well. 

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Saucey said:

This new company coming in, I heard they just make things more expensive. 

It's such a fun game. I'd like to see entry points at any age and income.

I heard, but cannot confirm, dark rumors of ice now costing $500 for a 1.5 hour slot out at Center Ice. If that's the future, there are going to be a good number of players and parents with sticker shock, and that will price some players clean out of hockey, I figure.

  • Dislike 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, Saucey said:

Supports my belief that our market is parent and pocket book driven, not development driven 

It absolutely is. I'd venture to guess that the only real places where its more development driven would be Minnesota or Canada, simply for the fact that they have WAY more access to ice and way more people involved. I have seen some newer groups popping up to help assist families financially to get into the sport and I fully support that mentality, while also recognizing that hockey is a sport that requires a considerable amount of resources to be played properly. 

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, forbin said:

It absolutely is. I'd venture to guess that the only real places where its more development driven would be Minnesota or Canada, simply for the fact that they have WAY more access to ice and way more people involved. I have seen some newer groups popping up to help assist families financially to get into the sport and I fully support that mentality, while also recognizing that hockey is a sport that requires a considerable amount of resources to be played properly. 

There's that, and the simple fact that in Minnesota and Canada there are parents and other adults who grew up playing hockey. Here in Western PA we have the same level of parent experience for football, but not for hockey. That is changing over time, but the sheer number of adults with useful hockey playing experience available to work with kids is much larger in those markets. Former football players do not always make good hockey coaches.

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Here's my two cents on the whole 3rd A saga. My kid is good, not great. High end AA player that loves to play as much as possible. I let him pick where he wants to play every year and what level he wants to try. He was 06 AA independent last 2 years. Played 70+ games 2020 and then 50 games last year because of the pandemic. Some people think that's too much. He said it wasn't enough. He wanted to try AAA this year and here was his reason. AA kids he played with after the 1st line just didn't have any hockey sense and it frustrated him so he said he would rather be 3rd line on a AAA team than top dog on a AA. He made Esmark, then it disbanded the 06 team (I'm glad by the way), he landed on a mixed birthyear AA team in another organization. He said this AA team based on the kids at tryouts would stand up with any the 06 AAA teams outside of PPE and Vengeance. Maybe he's just excited with a new team and it's wishful thinking or maybe they are just as good. He's happy, so I'm happy. Point is, it's not always the parents chasing a 3rd A, sometimes the kids just want to play with and against better players and play as many games as possible. 

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

30 minutes ago, Lifelongbender said:

There's that, and the simple fact that in Minnesota and Canada there are parents and other adults who grew up playing hockey. Here in Western PA we have the same level of parent experience for football, but not for hockey. That is changing over time, but the sheer number of adults with useful hockey playing experience available to work with kids is much larger in those markets. Former football players do not always make good hockey coaches.

SO true. Also one of the reasons more and more parents are going to the paid coaches "AAA" model, because at least then you know the people coaching your kid have hockey experience. I have mentioned before that my '09 sons first year squirt coach had never played hockey in his life and literally could not even skate or stand up in skates. Great guy, terrible hockey coach.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The one point that often gets overlooked is that quality practice, lessons, camps etc is paramount to development. 

I shudder when I see teams or kids playing 60-80 games a year and only on the ice for practice maybe 1:1 game to practice at best. 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

40 minutes ago, BeaverFalls said:

The one point that often gets overlooked is that quality practice, lessons, camps etc is paramount to development. 

I shudder when I see teams or kids playing 60-80 games a year and only on the ice for practice maybe 1:1 game to practice at best. 

Right.

All the literature suggests ratios more like 2:1 practices to games or more. USA Hockey recommends between 3:1 and 2:1 for 14U and 16U players, and minimum 3:1 for any kids younger than that. In at least a couple local organizations 16U players only get 1 practice every two weeks. Now, that's clouded by the fact that those players are often playing school hockey in addition to amateur, and those kids are getting two or more practices at school hockey, but they also play more games in that situation.

All of this assumes that the practices are well planned and well executed, too. You don't have to be a hockey player from your youth to be a good coach, but it sure helps. Around here alot of kids are getting poorly planned practices run by dads who played other sports. 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

The latest few post show the problems of hockey and youth sports in general today, especially regarding "development".

Many parents want "development" because they want to keep up with the Jones and brag about their kids

Some/many parents want "development: because they have unrealistic knowledge of college admissions and sports

Most of the kids just want to play games.

What USA Hockey advises for development (3:1 practice/ game ration; playing multi-sports) is not what the market (families) or the suppliers (rinks/clubs) want. 

The suppliers follow the market.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, carroll81 said:

The latest few post show the problems of hockey and youth sports in general today, especially regarding "development".

Many parents want "development" because they want to keep up with the Jones and brag about their kids

Some/many parents want "development: because they have unrealistic knowledge of college admissions and sports

Most of the kids just want to play games.

What USA Hockey advises for development (3:1 practice/ game ration; playing multi-sports) is not what the market (families) or the suppliers (rinks/clubs) want. 

The suppliers follow the market.

 

You’re absolutely right. People want games.

My thought process is for the average person, if you really want to get better, play whatever level, with a good program and coaches, keep it to 1-2 (eg a travel and a scholastic) teams, and instead of loading up on games, tournament teams, spring teams, summer teams, take lessons a few times a month, a few camps, invest in and use home training aids and you’ll get a ton more bang for the buck. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, BeaverFalls said:

You’re absolutely right. People want games.

My thought process is for the average person, if you really want to get better, play whatever level, with a good program and coaches, keep it to 1-2 (eg a travel and a scholastic) teams, and instead of loading up on games, tournament teams, spring teams, summer teams, take lessons a few times a month, a few camps, invest in and use home training aids and you’ll get a ton more bang for the buck. 

And again wtf does it matter?   I mean looking at my youngest playing rec baseball a couple years ago - he played 14 games and had 4 practices and had a great time.  What are we trying to do?   Let kids have fun for gods sake. 

Edited by aaaahockey
Link to comment
Share on other sites

31 minutes ago, aaaahockey said:

And again wtf does it matter?   I mean looking at my youngest playing rec baseball a couple years ago - he played 14 games and had 4 practices and had a great time.  What are we trying to do?   Let kids have fun for gods sake. 

if that is your goal, then great!  

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×
×
  • Create New...