'Low level' AAA' grow the game?

[aaaahockey]

9 hours ago, BeaverFalls said:

if that is your goal, then great!  

What is your goal?   This goes back to the comment that we would be better off having many more rec teams and many fewer travel teams.  For the vast majority of hockey players (everywhere and in western PA) the goal is to have fun. 

[Corsi]

I think we are going back to a post that was made earlier that essentially asked "why is playing at a high level always equated with the kids not having fun?".  I know from experience coaching and playing that the better kids almost always enjoy the higher level play more, while the lower level kids parents are the ones that make the assumption that they aren't having fun.  In my opinion, the reason those parents have that perception is because either they, or their player are not willing to put in the work to be able to play at that higher level, so thus if they aren't willing/able to do it, then it can't possibly be fun.  I've watched high level players throw away their 1st place medals from tournaments where they were misplaced and spent a weekend blowing teams out.  Why did they do that, because those players have more fun losing a game 2-1 that was tight and competitive than they do winning a game 8-1 that they didn't need to work hard to win.  

I have always gotten the feeling that the lower level kids parents feel this way because they want to be able to say their player is a contributor or one of the best players on the team and have a hard time with the truth.  I also feel that another part of it is not always having kids take the easiest route so that success is assured and allowing kids to fall and fail.  The higher level players almost always have a better level of resilience and a better developed sense of how life will have detours and potholes on the way as opposed to being an open highway with no speed limit.

[BeaverFalls]

3 hours ago, aaaahockey said:

What is your goal?   This goes back to the comment that we would be better off having many more rec teams and many fewer travel teams.  For the vast majority of hockey players (everywhere and in western PA) the goal is to have fun. 

I don’t disagree with you. My point is that just mindlessly playing higher levels doesn’t make someone a better player. Most would be better suited and better players for investing in more lessons and camps and playing at a lower and less expensive level.

[Saucey]

2 hours ago, Corsi said:

I think we are going back to a post that was made earlier that essentially asked "why is playing at a high level always equated with the kids not having fun?".  I know from experience coaching and playing that the better kids almost always enjoy the higher level play more, while the lower level kids parents are the ones that make the assumption that they aren't having fun.  In my opinion, the reason those parents have that perception is because either they, or their player are not willing to put in the work to be able to play at that higher level, so thus if they aren't willing/able to do it, then it can't possibly be fun.  I've watched high level players throw away their 1st place medals from tournaments where they were misplaced and spent a weekend blowing teams out.  Why did they do that, because those players have more fun losing a game 2-1 that was tight and competitive than they do winning a game 8-1 that they didn't need to work hard to win.  

I have always gotten the feeling that the lower level kids parents feel this way because they want to be able to say their player is a contributor or one of the best players on the team and have a hard time with the truth.  I also feel that another part of it is not always having kids take the easiest route so that success is assured and allowing kids to fall and fail.  The higher level players almost always have a better level of resilience and a better developed sense of how life will have detours and potholes on the way as opposed to being an open highway with no speed limit.

I've also known PPE kids never talk about how much fun they are having. And parents pushing their children into playing on these 'AAA' teams when their kids don't want to be there because they are not competitive with the teams they are playing. So they might be resilient in their losses but still not having much fun along the way. If it isn't fun, then no one should be playing. Fun and development take a back seat to this push to the top.

Could be it just depends on the kid. Again, a parent driven market.

[Corsi]

On 5/27/2021 at 11:41 AM, Saucey said:

Could be it just depends on the kid. Again, a parent driven market.

Parents have to be the driving force because I haven't met a kid yet that can foot the bill for hockey at any level, let alone at a "AA" or "AAA" level.  I don't think we should look at this as just a "hockey" issue though, it is prevalent across all youth sports and I'm sure it also seeps into other activities in kids lives.  If someone's son or daughter is a talented musician who wants to pursue that passion, I'm sure that those parent are more than willing to present them the chance to work with the instructors who are deemed to be the "best" or the "most accomplished".  I would also be willing to bet that other parents have opinions on what instructors are worth it, the same way that people like to judge what organizations are "worth it".  

We need to just be happy when players find a fit that works best for the player and the family.  

[Saucey]

14 minutes ago, Corsi said:

Parents have to be the driving force because I haven't met a kid yet that can foot the bill for hockey at any level, let alone at a "AA" or "AAA" level.  I don't think we should look at this as just a "hockey" issue though, it is prevalent across all youth sports and I'm sure it also seeps into other activities in kids lives.  If someone's son or daughter is a talented musician who wants to pursue that passion, I'm sure that those parent are more than willing to present them the chance to work with the instructors who are deemed to be the "best" or the "most accomplished".  I would also be willing to bet that other parents have opinions on what instructors are worth it, the same way that people like to judge what organizations are "worth it".  

We need to just be happy when players find a fit that works best for the player and the family.  

What if the fit is because the parent deems their kid more talented than they are? No one cares about that. Not every hockey market works this way.

Tier Ii is dying in PAHL. Except for the programs heavily recruiting, most programs are putting together rosters of half AA and lower skill.

Everyone wants the AAA experience. Black Bear has its own Tier II league, everyone will be able to travel all over eventually to play Tier II hockey soon at big bucks. Thankfully, grumpy me won't have kids playing anymore. I just don't understand spending all that time and money doing that. Ya ya ya, let people spend money how they want. I am all about access and growing the game. All of you can afford to fund your kids kid's every dream and whim, fantastic. Me, I gotta fund their college and my retirement.

It's like it's not worth doing unless you are playing at the highest level.

Yes, this happened all over for every kid's activity. That doesn't make it right. I am old, I grew up in a time where you played ball to play. None of this elite crap. It seemed a lot more fun. Kids don't even seem to have fun as an option anymore. 

Is this approach to children's activities healthy for children?

[mrfreeze]

If Iceman keep declaring Tier 2, but advertising as Tier 1, at what point will they no longer be able to declear Tier 1, I thought there are requirments and you need to have in order to be able to declear Tier 1 teams that are tournament bound. I thought they need to have current or past Tier 1 teams to meet these requirements.

[sadday4hockey]

6 hours ago, Saucey said:

None of this elite crap. It seemed a lot more fun. Kids don't even seem to have fun as an option anymore. 

We all have one person and one person only to thank for this "Elite" mess. He seems to be very well versed at making a mess of things too. You can include the current state of youth hockey in Pittsburgh along with the current state of the NHL team and on top of both of those, let's not forget that giant cluster F that still sits empty across from the new arena. Almost 11 years and counting.

[Saucey]

1 hour ago, sadday4hockey said:

We all have one person and one person only to thank for this "Elite" mess. He seems to be very well versed at making a mess of things too. You can include the current state of youth hockey in Pittsburgh along with the current state of the NHL team and on top of both of those, let's not forget that giant cluster F that still sits empty across from the new arena. Almost 11 years and counting.

I don't know, they had a huge impact, yes, but I have friends that had similar complaints before the Pens made their elite program. I really wouldn't know, though.

[nemesis8679]

3 hours ago, sadday4hockey said:

We all have one person and one person only to thank for this "Elite" mess. He seems to be very well versed at making a mess of things too. You can include the current state of youth hockey in Pittsburgh along with the current state of the NHL team and on top of both of those, let's not forget that giant cluster F that still sits empty across from the new arena. Almost 11 years and counting.

A) He did his political job of getting the new arena, growing the fanbase, and making profit.

B) He wasn't hired to be a hockey person, or to devolop the neighborhood. 

Mission Accomplished. 

Oh, and let's not forget he got lucky with a lot help from the draft lottery in accomplishing the former. 

[3 Boys]

On 5/27/2021 at 11:41 AM, Saucey said:

I've also known PPE kids never talk about how much fun they are having. And parents pushing their children into playing on these 'AAA' teams when their kids don't want to be there because they are not competitive with the teams they are playing. So they might be resilient in their losses but still not having much fun along the way. If it isn't fun, then no one should be playing. Fun and development take a back seat to this push to the top.

Could be it just depends on the kid. Again, a parent driven market.

Agree. This happened at the PHA Icemen team my son was on.  None of the kids enjoyed the season whatsoever, it was truly sad. The coach did nothing to help bring these kids together and actually contributed to the division.  Was a lot of money and travel to play "AAA" when you actually could barely beat any of the AAA teams and lost to the better AA teams.  Hard lessoned learned.  Definitely the PHA program is NOT worth the money.  If you can find a better AA program around, like NP or Armstrong NB program your pocket and kid will be much happier.

[Boomer]

On 6/7/2021 at 9:29 AM, 3 Boys said:

Agree. This happened at the PHA Icemen team my son was on.  None of the kids enjoyed the season whatsoever, it was truly sad. The coach did nothing to help bring these kids together and actually contributed to the division.  Was a lot of money and travel to play "AAA" when you actually could barely beat any of the AAA teams and lost to the better AA teams.  Hard lessoned learned.  Definitely the PHA program is NOT worth the money.  If you can find a better AA program around, like NP or Armstrong NB program your pocket and kid will be much happier.

People are still drinking their kool-aid.  Somehow they found enough AAA talent to not only field one U16 team but they are fielding two.   I guess people do not do research to see how awful that U15 team was last year, traveling the country to get beat by mediocre AA teams....

[forbin]

16 hours ago, Boomer said:

People are still drinking their kool-aid.  Somehow they found enough AAA talent to not only field one U16 team but they are fielding two.   I guess people do not do research to see how awful that U15 team was last year, traveling the country to get beat by mediocre AA teams....

Looking at their myhockey rankings page it looks like they only lost to two AA teams and they were close games. The rest of their schedule was against legit AAA teams. Not trying to defend them at all as I have no affiliation, but just pointing that out. Maybe their myhockey page doesn't tell the whole story?

[fafa fohi]

33 minutes ago, forbin said:

Looking at their myhockey rankings page it looks like they only lost to two AA teams and they were close games. The rest of their schedule was against legit AAA teams. Not trying to defend them at all as I have no affiliation, but just pointing that out. Maybe their myhockey page doesn't tell the whole story?

I think the reference to Icemen playing and losing to AA teams should have been directed at the U16 and U18 teams.  And no Icemen teams qualified for MidAms.

https://myhockeyrankings.com/association_info.php?a=3049

Edited June 9, 2021 by fafa fohi

[Boomer]

53 minutes ago, forbin said:

Looking at their myhockey rankings page it looks like they only lost to two AA teams and they were close games. The rest of their schedule was against legit AAA teams. Not trying to defend them at all as I have no affiliation, but just pointing that out. Maybe their myhockey page doesn't tell the whole story?

I would use the word legit very loosely.  The teams they played may have been registered aaa but are far from aaa caliber teams.  Out of 103 ranked teams in U15 tier 1 they were 93.  I think this paints the picture.

[forbin]

46 minutes ago, Boomer said:

I would use the word legit very loosely.  The teams they played may have been registered aaa but are far from aaa caliber teams.  Out of 103 ranked teams in U15 tier 1 they were 93.  I think this paints the picture.

Okay yeah I totally see your point now. Looking at the rankings they either marginally beat or got beaten by teams ranked 80 or lower. Didn't even play a top 40 ranked team. 

[fafa fohi]

49 minutes ago, Boomer said:

I would use the word legit very loosely.  The teams they played may have been registered aaa but are far from aaa caliber teams.  Out of 103 ranked teams in U15 tier 1 they were 93.  I think this paints the picture.

To your point, for Tier 1 U18 the Icemen were ranked 93rd out of 104 teams and for U16 they were ranked 108th out of 119 teams.

[hockey55]

On 6/7/2021 at 9:29 AM, 3 Boys said:

Agree. This happened at the PHA Icemen team my son was on.  None of the kids enjoyed the season whatsoever, it was truly sad. The coach did nothing to help bring these kids together and actually contributed to the division.  Was a lot of money and travel to play "AAA" when you actually could barely beat any of the AAA teams and lost to the better AA teams.  Hard lessoned learned.  Definitely the PHA program is NOT worth the money.  If you can find a better AA program around, like NP or Armstrong NB program your pocket and kid will be much happier.

Sounds pretty much like 98% of the people who have played for the Icemen. 3 of the original kids are still on the u18 team from the past 3 years. Pretty sad. Everyone else has figured it out about this organization and left

[Saucey]

Not everyone is there for the AAA experience. In fact, I think the Icemen have morphed into the new Aviators. It's really hard to believe anyone thinks they are AAA at this point. Maybe a new peewee parent could be fooled.

Icemen and their ilk are a choice of emotion that I think most parents regret by the end of the season. If you are unhappy with placement or whatever, you can go there because they always need players. 

There is always a home somewhere around Pittsburgh for the disgruntled. Teams like the Icemen are your back pocket consolation prize. Expensive, but hey, it's your money and you can spend it how you want. 

It defies logic to me that a parent would rather go play with the team that takes anyone rather than the one who tried to place skill right within a league that tries to do the same thing so the kids play similar competition all year.

Do organizations get it right all the time? No.

But the Icemen don't give two craps about getting it right. Or you. Or your kid. That organization desperately needs your check book.

An emotional choice that ends up being very expensive for you and bad for your kid. And you will then blame the bad season on the Icemen coaches or the other kids on the team or the organization you left.

P.S. it all ends for more than 95 percent of kids at age 17. You only have a few more years of this nonsense...and then you are done. 

[Jack Handey]

What are iceman fees?  

[3 Boys]

On 6/9/2021 at 10:55 PM, hockey55 said:

Sounds pretty much like 98% of the people who have played for the Icemen. 3 of the original kids are still on the u18 team from the past 3 years. Pretty sad. Everyone else has figured it out about this organization and left

Very true...  The Icemen will never field a competitive team due to the heavy politics.  They kept 3 defensemen that can't skate with AA skaters let alone AAA.  The one defensemen, he has no business playing on that team but his mom is heavily involved and close to the management at PHA, so he will make the team no matter what.   It truly seems that PHA does not care about having good teams, only about taking everyone's money letting them think their kid will be playing competitive AAA hockey.  

[3 Boys]

22 hours ago, Jack Handey said:

What are iceman fees?  

Well, I believe the season fee is around $4,200 PLUS the coaches funds, usually another $500 to $700.  Definitely not worth the money.  

[3 Boys]

On 6/10/2021 at 12:50 AM, Saucey said:

Not everyone is there for the AAA experience. In fact, I think the Icemen have morphed into the new Aviators. It's really hard to believe anyone thinks they are AAA at this point. Maybe a new peewee parent could be fooled.

Icemen and their ilk are a choice of emotion that I think most parents regret by the end of the season. If you are unhappy with placement or whatever, you can go there because they always need players. 

There is always a home somewhere around Pittsburgh for the disgruntled. Teams like the Icemen are your back pocket consolation prize. Expensive, but hey, it's your money and you can spend it how you want. 

It defies logic to me that a parent would rather go play with the team that takes anyone rather than the one who tried to place skill right within a league that tries to do the same thing so the kids play similar competition all year.

Do organizations get it right all the time? No.

But the Icemen don't give two craps about getting it right. Or you. Or your kid. That organization desperately needs your check book.

An emotional choice that ends up being very expensive for you and bad for your kid. And you will then blame the bad season on the Icemen coaches or the other kids on the team or the organization you left.

P.S. it all ends for more than 95 percent of kids at age 17. You only have a few more years of this nonsense...and then you are done. 

Again, so true.  The U18 passed on what would have been one of the best forwards on the team because he went to the call back day for Vengeance tryouts which was the first day of the Icemen tryouts.    That association is so petty and care only about making money rather than having competitive teams.   Save your money, play on a good AA team that has a chance of winning games.  Your kid will have much more fun.  

[Saucey]

5 hours ago, 3 Boys said:

Very true...  The Icemen will never field a competitive team due to the heavy politics.  They kept 3 defensemen that can't skate with AA skaters let alone AAA.  The one defensemen, he has no business playing on that team but his mom is heavily involved and close to the management at PHA, so he will make the team no matter what.   It truly seems that PHA does not care about having good teams, only about taking everyone's money letting them think their kid will be playing competitive AAA hockey.  

 

Edited June 11, 2021 by Saucey
Didn't like where conversation went

[3 Boys]

On 6/11/2021 at 9:26 AM, Saucey said:

I know exactly who you are referring to and thought that as soon as I saw his name on the roster.

Yes! Crazy, his skill set is not at a AAA player.   I can understand if he was even an ok player including the politics but that is not the case.

Edited June 12, 2021 by 3 Boys