Jack Handey Posted September 16, 2021 Share Posted September 16, 2021 9 minutes ago, fafa fohi said: to equate AA BY teams to anything related to PPE is absolutely absurd I agree, but I ain't the one doin' the equating, ace. They are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJUSHL Posted September 16, 2021 Author Share Posted September 16, 2021 15 minutes ago, Jack Handey said: I agree, but I ain't the one doin' the equating, ace. They are. So what's your solution to minor year BY teams leaving PAHL and going independent? Is there anything PAHL should be doing that would help the situation? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Handey Posted September 16, 2021 Share Posted September 16, 2021 23 minutes ago, RJUSHL said: So what's your solution to minor year BY teams leaving Au revoir; we bid thee farewell; godspeed; good-luck. It's happened before and will surely happen again so long as there are smoke blowing coaches to drive the demand. There are hundreds of teams in PAHL and changing alignment because 2-3 minor BY teams left is tantamount to the tail trying to wag the dog. A final parting thought, we'll see your independent kids back in various Pittsburgh beer league in just a few years. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carroll81 Posted September 16, 2021 Share Posted September 16, 2021 33 minutes ago, RJUSHL said: So what's your solution to minor year BY teams leaving PAHL and going independent? Is there anything PAHL should be doing that would help the situation? The birth year thing grew out of Tier 1, because of the Midget level, complicated by USAH using a calendar year vs. school year. Coaches/scouts wanted to see the 15U's. That is the year they wanted to focus on. Many other sports use graduation year once you get to the older ages. Once the legitimate college/junior bound levels started to do that, everybody else wants to keep up with the Jones. My solution for the older groups.... the districts should mandate that to be eligible for playoffs, you must be associated with a recognized USAH Tier I or Tier II league. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dazedandconfused Posted September 16, 2021 Share Posted September 16, 2021 18 minutes ago, carroll81 said: the districts should mandate that to be eligible for playoffs, you must be associated with a recognized USAH Tier I or Tier II league. THAT!! This simple solution would probably bring at least 90% in line. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Handey Posted September 16, 2021 Share Posted September 16, 2021 41 minutes ago, carroll81 said: The birth year thing grew out of Tier 1 Even before the T1 15-only change, we had Pittsburgh parents running around trying to make their AA teams fit into the Detroit model or Buffalo model, both of which are based on the metro Toronto model. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fafa fohi Posted September 16, 2021 Share Posted September 16, 2021 1 hour ago, Jack Handey said: I agree, but I ain't the one doin' the equating, ace. They are. Who is "they" ace? I have yet to come across a single parent / player / family that equates anything PPE does to Tier 2 AA hockey. You don't have to be a rocket scientist to recognize the differences in player skill, instruction and player development, cost, travel, etc. Some of that stuff may come from the "faux AAA" teams but certainly not AA teams let alone PAHL AA teams. And what does your comment say to the many, many Tier 2 AA teams that don't have a PPE equivalent? This conversation is getting ridiculous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saucey Posted September 16, 2021 Share Posted September 16, 2021 The market would be better served by concentrating on growing the game, rather than just saying let's have BY. As it is, we have a few dads running around trying to collect kids for the few programs that develop from day one, making their AA BY team. More kids playing, bigger market, bigger pool to increase competitiveness. Everyone wants BY around here. But when you do that, you end up with a handful of teams that are actually top to bottom AA. Maybe you can't compete at Mid Ams unless your program has a mite program. There is some sort of assumption that the independent teams leaving are good AA teams. That isn't always the case. If you need to pay the bills, at some point any body will do. I keep saying, you want proper BY the way the bigger hockey markets do it, you have to increase the number of AA player talent in the area. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeaverFalls Posted September 16, 2021 Share Posted September 16, 2021 4 hours ago, RJUSHL said: So what's your solution to minor year BY teams leaving PAHL and going independent? Is there anything PAHL should be doing that would help the situation? Maybe ask them and find out why they are leaving instead of speculating on here? A few BY teams leaving for a season isn’t going to affect PAHL in the slightest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJUSHL Posted September 16, 2021 Author Share Posted September 16, 2021 46 minutes ago, BeaverFalls said: Maybe ask them and find out why they are leaving instead of speculating on here? A few BY teams leaving for a season isn’t going to affect PAHL in the slightest. Believe me I have asked. Many of these BY teams don’t want to compete in a AA division where most of the teams they play are a year older and bigger. So their options are to play in an “A” division or go independent. They feel that if they play A major in PAHL they’ll lose credibility and won’t be able to grab up second team Pens kids when they go down to one team or other borderline Vengeance or Esmark players. And I do think three 2010 BY teams going this route does significantly impact PAHL AA hockey. More and more teams are going to start doing this when they hit their first year of 12U hockey. It’s going to be increasingly common and these teams aren’t coming back to PAHL. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aaaahockey Posted September 17, 2021 Share Posted September 17, 2021 3 hours ago, RJUSHL said: Believe me I have asked. Many of these BY teams don’t want to compete in a AA division where most of the teams they play are a year older and bigger. So their options are to play in an “A” division or go independent. They feel that if they play A major in PAHL they’ll lose credibility and won’t be able to grab up second team Pens kids when they go down to one team or other borderline Vengeance or Esmark players. And I do think three 2010 BY teams going this route does significantly impact PAHL AA hockey. More and more teams are going to start doing this when they hit their first year of 12U hockey. It’s going to be increasingly common and these teams aren’t coming back to PAHL. I can't believe I'm going down this rabbit hole of peewee hockey talk but what happened to the Southpointe 10 birthyear team? They were pretty good last year. Are they still PAHL or did they go independent too? If PAHL are they slotting AA OR A major? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
forbin Posted September 17, 2021 Share Posted September 17, 2021 8 minutes ago, aaaahockey said: I can't believe I'm going down this rabbit hole of peewee hockey talk but what happened to the Southpointe 10 birthyear team? They were pretty good last year. Are they still PAHL or did they go independent too? If PAHL are they slotting AA OR A major? Independent AA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saucey Posted September 17, 2021 Share Posted September 17, 2021 (edited) I don't want to see PAHL cater to something that isn't a good way to develop. Parents dictating structure based on ignorance and dad's ego is not good for hockey around here. Maybe there needs to be more of an outreach to educate younger parents. PAHL can do that. PAHL organizations can do that. Neither of my boys played in that minor BY model. They either played up or in A minor. That stigma associated with playing A minor in your rising year is a new phenomena, and it's not good. When my boys came up, it was normal to be on team 2 or 3 every other year and AA major your second year. You had to be really good, or born in a low BY to play AA both years. The kids I see coming out of that minor year are timid with checking. PAHL created that level to make it safer to check and it seems to just delay the learning process. Making choices on where to play and levels based on theoretical kids you want to recruit the next season is terrible. What does that say about what those coaches think of the kids that they have? They are wanting to cut kids on their current roster. Great way to spend your time and money, folks. Serve your current players in the season you are in. Develop what you have over wishing for something different. My boys were not always top players.They play for an organization who develops. They have had good and bad coaches, winning and losing seasons.. They've had some private instruction in the off season. They are naturally good athletes. They love it. Let them play where they fall, let them develop. Kids grow and change. They play in divisions with a lot of bad teams. They continue to get better. I don't think you are going to see change with PAHL going to BY. It all starts to wind down at midget, folks. Enjoy the moment. All that chasing chasing chasing...I am on the back end of watching people do that. I don't see those kids who are running around with these independent teams becoming significantly better hockey players. That has to be PAHL's end game. Not stroking parents. Develop the players. Edited September 17, 2021 by Saucey Correct bad sentence structure 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hockeyisgreat Posted September 17, 2021 Share Posted September 17, 2021 13 minutes ago, Saucey said: It all starts to wind down at midget, folks. Enjoy the moment. All that chasing chasing chasing...I am on the back end of watching people do that. I don't see those kids who are running around with these independent teams becoming significantly better hockey players. That has to be PAHL's end game. Not stroking parents. Develop the players. You are right on here Saucey! Most people don't realize how quickly it will be over when they are in the moment. I've seen it from a PAHL schedule and an independent schedule. The travel and hotel costs are not worth the extra expense when the teams you are playing are not any better than the PAHL teams you could have played within an hour of home. I like the PAHL schedule with 4 out of town tournaments. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stickboy Posted September 17, 2021 Share Posted September 17, 2021 Last two posts are spot on! Now just need everyone else to wake up. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJUSHL Posted September 17, 2021 Author Share Posted September 17, 2021 Past few posts are very good. You're right that it all is pretty ridiculous how some people view all this. But if I'm being honest, I just don't see that many negatives about having a AA minor division, especially at 12U. I actually think it could be a good thing for the development of the kids in that division. It doesn't mean PAHL is going to a fully birth year model. It just means that they are adapting a bit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corsi Posted September 17, 2021 Share Posted September 17, 2021 19 minutes ago, RJUSHL said: Past few posts are very good. You're right that it all is pretty ridiculous how some people view all this. But if I'm being honest, I just don't see that many negatives about having a AA minor division, especially at 12U. I actually think it could be a good thing for the development of the kids in that division. It doesn't mean PAHL is going to a fully birth year model. It just means that they are adapting a bit. This 100% correct, not every division should have BY, but having ONLY AA Major and AA Minor from 10U up should help to mitigate the number of teams making the choice to go independent. Everything below AA would still be mixed BY. This would also give minor kids something to work towards when trying out if it is a "deep" organization where a talented minor player wouldn't get a shot at the major team due to a factor such as size. Just a thought. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
forbin Posted September 17, 2021 Share Posted September 17, 2021 In this scenario would it mean that ALL minor pure BY teams would be obligated to play in the AA Minor division? What happens if the team is weak? Seeing that in a couple of cases so far this year.... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corsi Posted September 17, 2021 Share Posted September 17, 2021 34 minutes ago, forbin said: In this scenario would it mean that ALL minor pure BY teams would be obligated to play in the AA Minor division? What happens if the team is weak? Seeing that in a couple of cases so far this year.... No, only those minor BY teams that want to pursue playing at AA. In this scenario if you are a pure minor BY but are not AA then play at A major, etc. There would still be a placement process for those teams with what I proposed above. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hockeyisgreat Posted September 17, 2021 Share Posted September 17, 2021 36 minutes ago, forbin said: In this scenario would it mean that ALL minor pure BY teams would be obligated to play in the AA Minor division? What happens if the team is weak? Seeing that in a couple of cases so far this year.... Problem becomes the AA. Too many parents feel it is beneath their kids to play A. By playing independent you can hid a weak BY team with a weak schedule and still call it AA. Some come back to PAHL but most don't. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeaverFalls Posted September 17, 2021 Share Posted September 17, 2021 (edited) 5 minutes ago, hockeyisgreat said: Problem becomes the AA. Too many parents feel it is beneath their kids to play A. By playing independent you can hid a weak BY team with a weak schedule and still call it AA. Some come back to PAHL but most don't. This is pretty much what this whole post is calling for. Creating a whole new AA division, specially catered to 1-2 teams because mommy and daddy can bear to have their kid not called AA for a season. Listen, if you’re that worried that your kid as a 11 year old can’t even share the same sheet of ice with a 12 year old, regardless of level, that’s a big problem. Regardless if programs want to go full independent to avoid it, that’s their choice. An expensive and busy one but who cares from anyone in the league or not on the predators pee wee team. We’ve given about 100 scenarios why it’s generally a bad idea and what might work but RJ only will accept the creation of a new division to cater to one team, allegedly in the name of saving pahl hockey. Edited September 17, 2021 by BeaverFalls 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJUSHL Posted September 17, 2021 Author Share Posted September 17, 2021 (edited) 2 hours ago, forbin said: In this scenario would it mean that ALL minor pure BY teams would be obligated to play in the AA Minor division? What happens if the team is weak? Seeing that in a couple of cases so far this year.... No it wouldn't mean that at all. There are quite a few minor BY teams that just wouldn't be good enough for that division and they would play in any of the other A or B divisions. Edit: Sorry I responded before I saw Corsi's response. Edited September 17, 2021 by RJUSHL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJUSHL Posted September 17, 2021 Author Share Posted September 17, 2021 1 hour ago, hockeyisgreat said: Problem becomes the AA. Too many parents feel it is beneath their kids to play A. By playing independent you can hid a weak BY team with a weak schedule and still call it AA. Some come back to PAHL but most don't. You're absolutely right and having AA Major and AA Minor divisions at 12U would help solve this. Not perfect, but help some. But you're right though, teams that go independent may never come back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJUSHL Posted September 17, 2021 Author Share Posted September 17, 2021 (edited) 1 hour ago, BeaverFalls said: This is pretty much what this whole post is calling for. Creating a whole new AA division, specially catered to 1-2 teams because mommy and daddy can bear to have their kid not called AA for a season. Listen, if you’re that worried that your kid as a 11 year old can’t even share the same sheet of ice with a 12 year old, regardless of level, that’s a big problem. Regardless if programs want to go full independent to avoid it, that’s their choice. An expensive and busy one but who cares from anyone in the league or not on the predators pee wee team. We’ve given about 100 scenarios why it’s generally a bad idea and what might work but RJ only will accept the creation of a new division to cater to one team, allegedly in the name of saving pahl hockey. I'm just throwing some ideas around. I thought that was the point of this forum. And I'm not talking about one or two teams. I'm talking about the entire landscape of PAHL and trends I'm seeing. I'd rather adapt than shout at the wind (BY teams) and ask it to change directions. Thanks to everyone for helping me think through this issue. Some good thoughts in here. Edited September 17, 2021 by RJUSHL 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Handey Posted September 17, 2021 Share Posted September 17, 2021 Hmmm... Predator fees for birth year teams are mysteriously higher than mixed birth year teams. And on top of season fees you get a bonus fee for coaching. At least you and your kid will feel special. Kind of makes you wonder who the real predator is here. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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