Jump to content

Preds birth year teams all playing independent schedule


Recommended Posts

10 minutes ago, Danner27 said:

Honestly none of it matters much until 15U if your player is looking to try and make it in some sort of way - real junior hockey. What are 09’s now, peewee ???

Winchester?  Good reason to point out the second week of rankings are meaningless.  Peewees are barely worth talking about (including all the other chatter in this thread that your preds team is both overrated and afraid to play PAHL teams) but 2011s really??????   Look if you want to flush your money down the toilet it is your business sounds like we need to stop wasting our breath. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, MFIS2137 said:

My player is actually still not at the junior hockey age. My nephews have been through it now and I have learned some things along the way. 

Just trying to provide some perspective for those that are trying to navigate through all of this.

Most parents with players your kids age stopped posting on here a long time ago.

I guess you’re just trying to come to peace with how you spent your money.

Paths according to Danner:

Pens and Esmark for several years at a price tag of at least 15k a year including fees and travel to Minnesota 4 or 5 times a year to end up in “Top 25” ACHA M1. This is acceptable. 
 

Versus Faux AAA hockey with less travel and expense and a year or two of Tier 3 juniors (still coming in well below the above cost) also ending up in “Top 25” ACHA M1. This is not acceptable. 
 

You are also saying that Adrian’s ACHA M1 team would beat their NCAA D3 team? 
 

You also did not answer my post about Liberty and Adrian’s M1 team having several NA3 and USPHL Premier players on them. 
 

And you are correct it all ends the same but the money spent to get there or the price tag for that education is not the same for all. 
 

I agree that there are a lot good hockey players in top programs in ACHA M1. There are also a lot of good hockey players in top programs in NCAA D3. 
 

As you are sharing your wisdom try not to be so short sided. 

Maybe you have a problem with reading comprehension ?
 

PPE / ESMARK vs FAUX AAA. The point is, if you kid is Aspiring to play REAL junior hockey, locally these are your only two & best options to achieve this path. Locally (14U & up - when it matters) these two clubs are where the best local players are playing. Yes, PPE is on a higher level and your kids chances are greater. Yes - more than likely, even coming out of these programs your kid will end up playing acha hockey. 
 

yes, the top 25 acha m1 programs will beat the majority of ncaa d3 teams. ncaa d3 is status hockey “my kid plays ncaa hockey”. The majority of  ncaa d3 programs are on par with most acha m1 programs when it comes to skill, speed etc. not to mention, look at a lot of these schools that have ncaa d3 programs, would you really want you kid going there for academics ? They use the ncaa tag to get kids to attend some of these schools. College is a business. 

Sure you will get a few kids out of tier 3 that make the good acha m1 teams. similar to PPE / Esmark needing 4th line players. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

22 minutes ago, Danner27 said:

Maybe you have a problem with reading comprehension ?
 

PPE / ESMARK vs FAUX AAA. The point is, if you kid is Aspiring to play REAL junior hockey, locally these are your only two & best options to achieve this path. Locally (14U & up - when it matters) these two clubs are where the best local players are playing. Yes, PPE is on a higher level and your kids chances are greater. Yes - more than likely, even coming out of these programs your kid will end up playing acha hockey. 
 

yes, the top 25 acha m1 programs will beat the majority of ncaa d3 teams. ncaa d3 is status hockey “my kid plays ncaa hockey”. The majority of  ncaa d3 programs are on par with most acha m1 programs when it comes to skill, speed etc. not to mention, look at a lot of these schools that have ncaa d3 programs, would you really want you kid going there for academics ? They use the ncaa tag to get kids to attend some of these schools. College is a business. 

Sure you will get a few kids out of tier 3 that make the good acha m1 teams. similar to PPE / Esmark needing 4th line players. 

That’s great that Adrian’s M1 team is getting that much production from their 4th line. 3rd leading scorer is a freshman that dare we say played for Wooster last year in Tier 3 hockey. 

I really do have a serious question for you if you are willing to educate me as I really am not sure about this one.

Do these top ACHA teams allow you to play for free? Also do they help find academic and other scholarship money for you?
 

I know some players that are attending some private universities with NCAA D3  hockey with about 50k a year price tag for the price of going to Community College. 
 

Just want to know my options if these opportunities come our way in a few years from now. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Danner27 said:

Honestly none of it matters much until 15U if your player is looking to try and make it in some sort of way - real junior hockey. What are 09’s now, peewee ???

Yep. And at 16 they start wandering away to do other things, not even playing or just playing school. 

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

16 hours ago, MFIS2137 said:

I really do have a serious question for you if you are willing to educate me as I really am not sure about this one.

Do these top ACHA teams allow you to play for free? Also do they help find academic and other scholarship money for you?
 

I know some players that are attending some private universities with NCAA D3  hockey with about 50k a year price tag for the price of going to Community College. 
 

Just want to know my options if these opportunities come our way in a few years from now. 

Yes, the mid west division / conference that has lindenwood operates like it’s ncaa d1 making up merit scholarships for anything they can. this trend started about 6-7 years ago. No, you are not going to play hockey on a full scholarship (most ncaa d1 kids are not on full scholarships at the mid to small programs) but they find creative ways to get the players they want.  Most acha m1 programs will In some way offer some financial help for players they really want, the kids considered top players on the team, but it’s the top programs that really pony up for kids they want. I’ve have not heard much or seen much in regards to this at the m2&3 levels. 
 

locally, I know a kid rmu gave 4k a year to for a language scholarship to help push him to attend and play. Yes, it’s not much but he’s a local kid that wanted to attend rmu anyway. Tuition around this time was 18k a year if you commuted. This player had pretty good hs transcripts with a very high sat score. After all the normal minor stuff, academic achievement scholarships etc I think he was down to 14k a year then they added the language scholarship for another 4k. In the end he got 16k over 4 years due to his hockey ability. This player I’m speaking of is a 99 who spent 6 years at PPE, my oldest played with him -  do the math, this was before excel was around, a season at PPE During these years with travel was costing around 8-9k.  I was told rmu does not often operate like this but they knew this player was considering a ncaa d3 school across the state that cost 3xs more. 
 

to continue locally, I have never heard much about the other schools doing much of anything like this but I’d be willing to bet if there is a kid they really want who has other options via academics, more than likely the coach will help the school find some coins in the sofa to create some sort of merit scholarship, but you better be a STELLAR HS student with very high SAT / ACT scores. I know the tests are optional now at a lot of colleges but they are still a big driving force behind academic money. 
 

Edited by Danner27
  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

15 hours ago, Saucey said:

Yep. And at 16 they start wandering away to do other things, not even playing or just playing school. 

100% accurate. They want to have fun, still play & socialize - nothing wrong with that at all! Support them, they only get one childhood. 
 

To add if you think your kid has the potential to be a pro, 16 is when they are gone off to Canadian Major Junior or the ushl.  If you think you kid has the potential to be a ncaa d1 player - this group is gone by 17 to the ushl  - 18 tier 2 juniors. Yes before someone screams so and so didn’t make the nahl until he was 19! Yes. Some will make tier 2 leagues at 19, these kids normally are the ones with out much of a chance to make ncaa d1, talented players but not high end. Even though the nahl is considered an “older league” the top players of said league started playing at 18.   

Edited by Danner27
  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 hours ago, Danner27 said:

Yes, the mid west division that has lindenwood operates like it’s ncaa d1 making up merit scholarships for anything they can. this trend started about 6-7 years ago. No, you are not going to play hockey on a full scholarship (most ncaa d1 kids are not on full scholarships at the mid to small programs) but they find creative ways to get the players they want.  Most acha m1 programs will In some way offer some finical help for players they really want, the kids considered top players on the team, but it’s the top programs that really pony up for kids they want. I’ve have not heard much or seen much in regards to this at the m2&3 levels. 
 

locally, I know a kid rmu gave 4k a year to for a language scholarship to help push him to attend and play. Yes, it’s not much but he’s a local kid that wanted to attend rmu anyway. Tuition around this time was 18k a year if you commuted. This player had pretty good hs transcripts with a very high sat score. After all the normal minor stuff, academic achievement scholarships etc I think he was down to 14k a year then they added the language scholarship for another 4k. In the end he got 16k over 4 years due to his hockey ability. This player I’m speaking of is a 99 who spent 6 years at PPE, my oldest played with him -  do the math, this was before excel was around, a season at PPE During these years with travel was costing around 8-9k.  I was told rmu does not often operate like this but they knew this player was considering a ncaa d3 school across the state that cost 3xs more. 
 

to continue locally, I have never heard much about the other schools doing much of anything like this but I’d be willing to bet if there is a kid they really want who has other options via academics, more than likely the coach will help the school find some coins in the sofa to create some sort of merit scholarship, but you better be a STELLAR HS student with very high SAT / ACT scores. I know the tests are optional now at a lot of colleges but they are still a big driving force behind academic money. 
 

 

This is good information.  I will add that you can look at this from the other side also.  You can use hockey as a way to get into a school that you might not have a shot at getting into normally.  With the competitiveness and diversity initiatives of universities, having a coach be able to put your kids app on the top of the pile and have a discussion with the admissions office on your behalf can be the thing that gets them admitted.  You still need the grades though.  This doesn't happen for every player, but can help for some.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, carroll81 said:

 

This is good information.  I will add that you can look at this from the other side also.  You can use hockey as a way to get into a school that you might not have a shot at getting into normally.  With the competitiveness and diversity initiatives of universities, having a coach be able to put your kids app on the top of the pile and have a discussion with the admissions office on your behalf can be the thing that gets them admitted.  You still need the grades though.  This doesn't happen for every player, but can help for some.

I think the main takeaway from this very helpful discussion is 'stay in school, kids.' ? This is good stuff guys, ty.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, Saucey said:

I think the main takeaway from this very helpful discussion is 'stay in school, kids.' ? This is good stuff guys, ty.

Yes!  If your goal is to play sports in college.  One of the first questions the coach will ask is "What are your grades?".  In that question is: what coursework are you taking, what school are you attending, and what are your standardized test scores.  They have to justify every kid on their roster.  Stay in school, study hard.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It is an NCAA violation to change admission standards or offer tuition money that is not related to athletic scholarships.  All of this talk about giving kids money for club hockey is simply crazy. No school does that. RMU can’t even afford to fund their D1 program.  

google:

“Elmira College penalized by NCAA over financial aid violations”


 



 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 10/10/2021 at 10:28 PM, Theroadtobeerleague said:

It is an NCAA violation to change admission standards or offer tuition money that is not related to athletic scholarships.  All of this talk about giving kids money for club hockey is simply crazy. No school does that. RMU can’t even afford to fund their D1 program.  

google:

“Elmira College penalized by NCAA over financial aid violations”


 



 

There are ways around it - I know for a fact.  The school will call it "The Joe Schmoe Memorial Fund Scholarship" or some form of a merit scholarship.

Edited by fafa fohi
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

11 hours ago, Theroadtobeerleague said:

It is an NCAA violation to change admission standards or offer tuition money that is not related to athletic scholarships.  All of this talk about giving kids money for club hockey is simply crazy. No school does that. RMU can’t even afford to fund their D1 program.  

google:

“Elmira College penalized by NCAA over financial aid violations”


 



 

100% not accurate. The money is coming in the form of merit scholarships. I know kids that have and are receiving it. Do you understand what a merit scholarships is ? It can be anything. Hey you are great at art! Here is an art scholarship, thanks for coming coach wants you on the club team. 
 

ps - Elmira is a ncaa d3 program. That’s problem number one for them, the ncaa has no involvement in club sports. If you read the article they got In trouble because they didn’t balance their merit scholarships. They are competing with the club schools.  Really all this article does is further my point how the big acha programs run like ncaa d1 programs.  

ELMIRA, N.Y. (WENY) - Elmira College was penalized by the NCAA on Friday in an infractions decision which found that EC gave merit-based scholarships to student-athletes at a disproportionately higher rate than non-student-athletes.

Edited by Danner27
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

NCAA players get "merit" scholarships all the time, even if they don't have a full athletic scholarship. Usually they are a collection of a lot of random small(ish) scholarships that add up to something significant. Everyone knows why they are receiving the scholarships. And it's also naive to think that athletic departments don't push college applications to the top of the list if it's an athlete they really want. Happens all the time. Admissions departments look at the full picture of the kid and aren't only looking at GPA and SAT scores. Athletics contribute to that overall picture of the kid.

I'm glad a lot of the best prospects in the US and Canada are starting to see how good the NCAA development path is. Less games, more practice, more time in the gym, the start of an education, and just a great college experience compared to a kid playing a 68 game regular season schedule in the CHL. They end up playing 90+ games when all is said and done. That's too much for a kid in prime development years. I think we'll start to see more of the best prospects go USHL for two years and then head off to a good college program. I think that's smart.

Edited by RJUSHL
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 10/9/2021 at 10:07 PM, Danner27 said:

Honestly none of it matters much until 15U if your player is looking to try and make it in some sort of way - real junior hockey. What are 09’s now, peewee ???

We know. We all know this, but unfortunately for you not all of us have kids that old yet and this is a forum for discussion. Therefore discussion of younger birth years will take place. 

  • Like 1
  • 100 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

18 hours ago, forbin said:

We know. We all know this, but unfortunately for you not all of us have kids that old yet and this is a forum for discussion. Therefore discussion of younger birth years will take place. 

Thanks Forbin.  I've been lucky enough to be around youth hockey between playing and coaching for probably upwards of 90% of my life and have coached from Mites to Midgets.  Most parents don't get the education that is needed for them to understand truely what the odds are of their player moving on to higher levels, or even what those levels look like from a skill level.  Unfortunately, with experience we know that the jump from "B" to "A", "A" to "AA", "AA" to "AAA" all get exponentially harder as a player moves up the ladder.  I will always go back to parent/player education as being the most overlooked aspect of youth hockey.

To steer the discussion back towards what we were originally talking about, there is some value in discussing and watching kids at 12U play.  I've been lucky enough to watch kids that you can already see are going to be able to advance and thrive at 14U because they do play a borderline physical game at that age, while there's also the other end of the spectrum of the kids that shy away from contact at 12U and are going to struggle greatly and probably end up giving up the game, or not advancing to higher levels of play because of that.  I do believe this is where the value of having major/minor at 12U and up would be valuable and also illustrates why teams might chose to go independent.  I've always felt through the years that higher level of play will almost always = more physicality because the players have better control of their bodies because those players are better athletes in general.  If you have a team that is going to physically dominate other teams in their "home" league, then there is value in going independent.  Anything can happen during a game and a team can/will run into a hot goalie sometimes and lose a game that they dominated every other aspect of.  Should that team have to dominate teams that they are going to beat 95% of the time or maybe play a schedule that ends up in a .500 or .600 record and the kids get challenged?

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 10/9/2021 at 10:30 PM, Danner27 said:

Maybe you have a problem with reading comprehension ?
 

PPE / ESMARK vs FAUX AAA. The point is, if you kid is Aspiring to play REAL junior hockey, locally these are your only two & best options to achieve this path. Locally (14U & up - when it matters) these two clubs are where the best local players are playing. Yes, PPE is on a higher level and your kids chances are greater. Yes - more than likely, even coming out of these programs your kid will end up playing acha hockey. 
 

yes, the top 25 acha m1 programs will beat the majority of ncaa d3 teams. ncaa d3 is status hockey “my kid plays ncaa hockey”. The majority of  ncaa d3 programs are on par with most acha m1 programs when it comes to skill, speed etc. not to mention, look at a lot of these schools that have ncaa d3 programs, would you really want you kid going there for academics ? They use the ncaa tag to get kids to attend some of these schools. College is a business. 

Sure you will get a few kids out of tier 3 that make the good acha m1 teams. similar to PPE / Esmark needing 4th line players. 

The way that I look at it is different than others.  I see playing for a decent ACHA Div 1 team as an accomplishment and a good thing for a kid.  Unfortunately, to play on some of these club team you have to play juniors, right? 

I just don't get knocking AAA hockey at birth years below Bantam Major.  When I look at it, most/all of the Pens Elite kids have been there since the beginning or they have been recruited from out of town.  So, if you want to play for the PPE and have the best shot at Juniors you have to get in the system early.  Am I wrong?  At u15, didn't one Pahl kid crack the PPE this year?  And he played up for his Dad, right?  And at 07, one kid left made it from the Vengeance, right?  Not from a PAHL team.  Didn't the PPE bring in 08 kids from Vengeance this year?   Am I missing something, how does one go ahead and develop by playing PAHL and make the PPE when they are older?  Just doesn't seem likely.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

14 minutes ago, Corsi said:

Should that team have to dominate teams that they are going to beat 95% of the time or maybe play a schedule that ends up in a .500 or .600 record and the kids get challenged?

I personally would absolutely rather see my sons team play a harder schedule and go .500 than win every game 9-0. Losing builds character and makes you humble. If that means having to go independent then so be it. 

I honestly have zero affiliation with the Preds and have bashed them just as much as the next guy on this site, but I really don't see a problem with a couple of their teams going independent. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 minutes ago, twoboys said:

I just don't get knocking AAA hockey at birth years below Bantam Major.  When I look at it, most/all of the Pens Elite kids have been there since the beginning or they have been recruited from out of town.  So, if you want to play for the PPE and have the best shot at Juniors you have to get in the system early.  Am I wrong? 

Not wrong in the slightest. We all know there is a great deal of politics with youth hockey. PPE squirts is 90% Lil 66ers, PPE peewee is 95% PPE squirts and so on. It's just common sense. 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

26 minutes ago, twoboys said:

The way that I look at it is different than others.  I see playing for a decent ACHA Div 1 team as an accomplishment and a good thing for a kid.  Unfortunately, to play on some of these club team you have to play juniors, right? 

I just don't get knocking AAA hockey at birth years below Bantam Major.  When I look at it, most/all of the Pens Elite kids have been there since the beginning or they have been recruited from out of town.  So, if you want to play for the PPE and have the best shot at Juniors you have to get in the system early.  Am I wrong?  At u15, didn't one Pahl kid crack the PPE this year?  And he played up for his Dad, right?  And at 07, one kid left made it from the Vengeance, right?  Not from a PAHL team.  Didn't the PPE bring in 08 kids from Vengeance this year?   Am I missing something, how does one go ahead and develop by playing PAHL and make the PPE when they are older?  Just doesn't seem likely.

You are not wrong, local kids need to get into PPE early.  My point about what age matters was referring to scouting, maybe I communicated it wrong. 
 

playing acha m1 is an accomplishment, all those players should be proud of. Club hockey is not that same as it was 10 years ago. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, twoboys said:

 Am I missing something, how does one go ahead and develop by playing PAHL and make the PPE when they are older?  Just doesn't seem likely.

The kids who start playing squirt and peewee for PAHL are at a disadvantage to the kids who start out playing for PPE, Esmark and Vengeance. A player who only gets (2) 50 min of shared ice practices a week and 30 games a year in PAHL will not develop the same as a player who get (2) hour + practices and 60 games a year. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

14 minutes ago, BACKCHECKING said:

The kids who start playing squirt and peewee for PAHL are at a disadvantage to the kids who start out playing for PPE, Esmark and Vengeance. A player who only gets (2) 50 min of shared ice practices a week and 30 games a year in PAHL will not develop the same as a player who get (2) hour + practices and 60 games a year. 

True but in that case you get what you pay for.  Playing in PAHL is probably half the cost of the others.  That's where private lessons etc kick in for kids and parents who want to aspire to higher levels.  If I had it to do all over again I might start mine at PPE. But how do you know haw serious a child is going to be about hockey at 5 or 6 years old to travel to Cranberry when you can play down the street for fun.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

39 minutes ago, hockeyisgreat said:

True but in that case you get what you pay for.  Playing in PAHL is probably half the cost of the others.  That's where private lessons etc kick in for kids and parents who want to aspire to higher levels.  If I had it to do all over again I might start mine at PPE. But how do you know haw serious a child is going to be about hockey at 5 or 6 years old to travel to Cranberry when you can play down the street for fun.

Did your kids go from PAHL to AAA?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, BACKCHECKING said:

The kids who start playing squirt and peewee for PAHL are at a disadvantage to the kids who start out playing for PPE, Esmark and Vengeance. A player who only gets (2) 50 min of shared ice practices a week and 30 games a year in PAHL will not develop the same as a player who get (2) hour + practices and 60 games a year. 

Not necessarily, your kid will develop better and get more out of a GOOD skating coach or skills guy. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×
×
  • Create New...