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Armstrong vs Mars incident


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I have been a follower of this forum for years, and until now have never felt compelled to make an account so that I could express my thoughts.   This unfortunate incident was the push I needed.  You can completely ignore my comments if you think I am out of line, but I hope you will at least consider them.

First, I am not going to discuss the issue of blame at all.  I have read most, if not all, of these posts and enough comments have been made about who is to blame.  Several people bear responsibility, but that is all I will say about that.  In my many years of being involved in youth/high school hockey, I have come to know this as an exceptional group of people (adults and kids) who share a love of an awesome game.  Are there issues from time to time - sure-but that can be said about everything.  What is unique is the concept of "hockey community" that I don't see in most other sports.  Hockey people come together like no other when something happens in their community.  Think about Kevin Kenny, the Vengeance player who was paralyzed in an on ice accident or the Humboldt bus accident which killed many young players.  We all rally together to support each other even if we don't have a personal connection.  Our players play together on the weekends and against each other during the week.  They always come out friends with respect for each other.  We need to make sure this continues.

Where we need to focus as a community right now is how do we move forward.  That is what is important.  How do we ensure that all those affected are OK (especially the goalie).  Obviously there need to be some changes and consequences, but instead of spending so much time on blame, and arguing who is to blame and insulting each other, let's all put that time and energy into real solutions.

I will throw out a couple of ideas I have (not that anyone cares) and hope that this will refocus this post on making suggestions that will lead to positive change.  One, what about making the involved parties contribute to a fund that goes toward paying for a local police officer to provide the security for the games if a security guard isn't sufficient?  Second, rather than punishing players who already don't get many fans at their games, make the high school fans from Armstrong be required to attend games with their parent/guardian.  Third, for a period of time (maybe the rest of this year) make Armstrong students be required to pre-purchase tickets to get into the game and have to provide their student ID to get one so administrators know who was there if trouble arises.  

I'm sure some others will have more,  even better ideas, but I hope to at least get us as the "hockey community" moving to a place of change and healing.  Then, we can have some ramifications in place in the event that any other games/venues/teams face incidents like this in the future.  Knowing consequences ahead of time often prevents issues.

So, best wishes to the very brave young lady from Mars who clearly deserves all the support she is getting.  Thank you to her parents, teammates and other hockey players who are backing her and helping her through this time.  Let's get back to being one community wanting only to play and watch hockey!!!!!!

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58 minutes ago, AMR24 said:

I have thought about this a lot. Every adult in that building failed this girl. The chants are loud and clear. Enough adults knew what was being said. And, as for the adults on the ice, they heard it. And if they did not, they sure heard the players on the ice discussing it. Yes, the parents in the stands had a responsibility to stop it. The security guard had a responsibility as well. There were many avenues that could have been taken to stop it. But why are we over looking the responsibility of the coaches and refs? They have a responsibility also. How many games have we all been to where a ref stops a game to kick out a parent then keeps the game stopped until the parent exits? I’ve seen it done more times than I care to admit. How many times have we seen them issue a bench minor for parent’s behaviors in the stands?  They had options and the chose to not to act. The Mars coach could have refused to go out for the 3rd period. His goalie was visibly upset. This was well beyond any heckling. While she’s on that ice, she is his responsibility. And, I’m sorry, but her well being is far greater than any point in standings or fine he may have received for choosing not to continue to play. The Armstrong coach could have done the same thing. Instead, every adult sat back and let it occur. Then when the story breaks, fingers start pointing and blame is passed around. Take ownership and responsibility, be an adult and a roll model. It’s really not difficult to do. I would also go out on a limb and say if this was directed at a male goalie with a different version of the chant, the response would have been different.


Well said.  I agree that all of the adults in the rink failed.  For those adults that were required to take Safesport training, is this a violation of safesport?

How about adults that were present and are “mandatory reporters of child abuse”, have they reported this incident?  This went on throughout the game, probably for 2 hours.   The two links below clarify who is a mandatory reporter and also defines child abuse.   
 

https://pafsa.org/who-are-mandated-reporters/

 

https://pafsa.org/what-is-child-abuse-neglect/

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First, my heart goes out to the Mars Goalie, her Mom, and her Grandma (who takes her to all her practices and games) for what they are going through. She has stepped up for Mars Hockey and is the only goalie Mars has for JV and Varsity. I have been extremely impressed with her determination and what she has accomplished.

There is plenty of blame to go around for this one. But It starts with Armstrong students who committed the sexual harassment offense. The school needs to sort it out and discipline with suspensions and/or other appropriate measures. The PIHL (good luck with this one) needs to deal appropriately with others involved who let this happen as mentioned in the many previous posts.

My wife and I attended the game and were probably the only Mars fans on the side of the ice next to the student section. Why is the home student section across from the visitor’s bench in the first place?  I was there to see my grandson play, so for me it’s Deja Vue all over again after going through the hockey years with my son. I’m loving it and feel blessed to have this connection with my grandsons. I still believe ice hockey is one of the best sports there is for kids and to bring a family together.

What I witness last Thursday was a group of students acting disrespectful (nothing new) at a Varsity game, but unfortunately, they crossed over the line and now need disciplined and get what they deserve. Apparently, some of them did not learn how to respect others from their parents. I asked a couple Armstrong fans next to me if they could do something to stop them, their comment was “they are not my kids”. I’m sure if a grandpap from Mars tried to stop them that would of went over really well. When my son played, this was never tolerated. Security and the Refs would immediately show the unruly student (or parent) the way out. I guess things have changed.

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I think we have heard enough about who is to blame. We all think we know what we would have done in the moment. Easiest thing in the world is to second guess. I know there are a lot of people who feel bad that they didn't step up in the moment! Time to step up now and educate ourselves and our kids on what is and isn't acceptable behavior.  Can't change the past! Can only prepare and make the future better. Learn from mistakes and make things better.

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4 minutes ago, hockeyisgreat said:

I think we have heard enough about who is to blame. We all think we know what we would have done in the moment. Easiest thing in the world is to second guess. I know there are a lot of people who feel bad that they didn't step up in the moment! Time to step up now and educate ourselves and our kids on what is and isn't acceptable behavior.  Can't change the past! Can only prepare and make the future better. Learn from mistakes and make things better.

Wow, just move on and don’t worry about blame.  Seems to me that someone should be held accountable.   The goalie at least deserves accountability.

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11 minutes ago, Shrimp Worters said:

Wow, just move on and don’t worry about blame.  Seems to me that someone should be held accountable.   The goalie at least deserves accountability.

Hey you can worry about who is to blame and what punishment should be given out. That will take care of itself at this point. And I'm sure there will be dissatisfied people.  I'm going to use this as a teaching moment to educate myself and my kids so that it doesn't happen to anyone again.  I'll bet the Goalie feels that way also. Her mom has said so multiple times. She is a true athlete and a classy young lady who loves to play hockey.

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12 minutes ago, hockeyisgreat said:

Hey Paul & Forbin. I see you are up to 21K views on this topic. How does it compare to the most ever?  I'm sure it's far from over as we await what the PIHL has to say tonight. Then get everyones opinion about how it's not enough of a punishment. Whatever it is!

You can sort threads by most viewed. It's 10th right now on this new version of the site. 20k views in a few days is quite a bit.  I'm very happy to see this issue is getting national attention now as well.

Saw an article on Yahoo Sports about it.

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I have been following this thread and incident all week, and just wanted to throw my two cents in.  I had two boys that played both PAHL and PIHL hockey, and as such saw many, many games at the Belmont rink over a 20 year period.  Both of my guys are retired now, and we've been out of the game for 8 years.  However, if anybody pulled me aside, told me of an event like this, and then asked me to guess the location, I'd have had no difficulty in naming Belmont.  There have been numerous disturbing events at that rink over the years, and the extremely large majority of them involved the Kittanning high school crowd.  I've certainly witnessed crude obscene chants over the years.  That's nothing.  I've seen old ladies spit over the balcony onto the visiting bench.  I've seen vile hand gestures made to refs and to visiting players and coaches often times by the mothers of players.  I've seen fights in the stands and out in that parking lot.  The list of events goes on and on.  There's never been adequate security there, but most importantly, there's never been any respect for fellow human beings.  That place is truly a black hole for bad behavior.

I will say that not every organization there has had this problem.   The Freeport crowd was mild in comparison.  The Armstrong youth organization was mild in comparison.  It's important that not every team and organization in that region get painted with the same broad brush.  But trust me, anyone who has been involved in youth or high school hockey over the last 15 years knows where the bad apples are in that area.  

It's distressing to see that even here people are making excuses for this behavior.  No wonder the kids up there are out of control, when even some parents seem to think that this level of uncivilized behavior is acceptable.

Edited by oldhockeydad
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The next Mars game is Monday, November 8, at 8:00 PM, at Lemieux. PIHL is expecting a LARGE turnout supporting the Mars goalie, so they moved it from Baierl to Lemieux to accommodate the crowd. It would be amazing for a huge crowd to show up for this game, to support the goalie, but also to make a statement that the sort of behavior that occurred at Belmont is not accepted by the Pittsburgh area hockey community, and also that this sort of thing will not be tolerated. Several of the local 12U and 14U girls teams are planning to attend the game as a team.

Good on PIHL and the rinks for making this change in support of the player.

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32 minutes ago, Lifelongbender said:

The next Mars game is Monday, November 8, at 8:00 PM, at Lemieux. PIHL is expecting a LARGE turnout supporting the Mars goalie, so they moved it from Baierl to Lemieux to accommodate the crowd. It would be amazing for a huge crowd to show up for this game, to support the goalie, but also to make a statement that the sort of behavior that occurred at Belmont is not accepted by the Pittsburgh area hockey community, and also that this sort of thing will not be tolerated. Several of the local 12U and 14U girls teams are planning to attend the game as a team.

Good on PIHL and the rinks for making this change in support of the player.

I hear that Seneca Valley, North Allegheny and Pine Richland Varsity teams will all be there to show their support as well as show the community that hockey is for everyone and the events at the Armstrong game are not tolerated nor acceptable to other teams/players/coaches/fans in our area. 

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Question about the incident - perhaps I missed this in an earlier post.

Is there any accountability for the refs in all of this?  If the goalie can hear the chants, the refs certainly can.  I haven't seen a single quote from the referees from the game, on this subject.  

Will the PIHL have anything to say to the refs (or the refs face any sanctions) about why they didn't stop the game and handle this immediately?

The whole incident could have been vastly different had this been dealt with mid-game, rather than letting the whole thing transpire and blow up on social media and in the forum.

 

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3 hours ago, hockeyisgreat said:

Hey Paul & Forbin. I see you are up to 21K views on this topic. How does it compare to the most ever?  I'm sure it's far from over as we await what the PIHL has to say tonight. Then get everyones opinion about how it's not enough of a punishment. Whatever it is!

We have experienced an increase in registrations (due to new people registering and posting on this topic), and we have had an increase in activity (also in this thread).  The only time we had more posts was August 2020 - presumably due to lots of questions/comments pertaining to COVID and impact on games.  I haven't found a specific report that lets me see what the most # of views is.  If I find that I will post more info.

Here is a graph of the traffic activity for those who are interested.

 

2021-11-03_14-51-40.jpg

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40 minutes ago, Wes said:

Question about the incident - perhaps I missed this in an earlier post.

Is there any accountability for the refs in all of this?  If the goalie can hear the chants, the refs certainly can.  I haven't seen a single quote from the referees from the game, on this subject.  

Will the PIHL have anything to say to the refs (or the refs face any sanctions) about why they didn't stop the game and handle this immediately?

The whole incident could have been vastly different had this been dealt with mid-game, rather than letting the whole thing transpire and blow up on social media and in the forum.

 

The refs involved are sadly no surprise to anyone who has been around for a while.  I know one of them personally, and he's a very nice guy that I've known for years, but he has no stomach for controversy.

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1 hour ago, Hockey22 said:

I hear that Seneca Valley, North Allegheny and Pine Richland Varsity teams will all be there to show their support as well as show the community that hockey is for everyone and the events at the Armstrong game are not tolerated nor acceptable to other teams/players/coaches/fans in our area. 

I hope the young lady will be comfortable with all that attention. She may feel a lot of pressure and feel like she's under a microscope. The intentions are sincere, but it may be risky not knowing her personality/wishes. Sometimes a victim of an assault needs some space. Many don't come forward for a long time. I haven't seen any evidence that anyone posting here or anywhere else has offered anything but good intentions, but I wouldn't be sure that this will work out as well as we hope.

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10 minutes ago, Otis said:

I hope the young lady will be comfortable with all that attention. She may feel a lot of pressure and feel like she's under a microscope. The intentions are sincere, but it may be risky not knowing her personality/wishes. Sometimes a victim of an assault needs some space. Many don't come forward for a long time. I haven't seen any evidence that anyone posting here or anywhere else has offered anything but good intentions, but I wouldn't be sure that this will work out as well as we hope.

At least she will be aware and be able to be prepared for this. Playing goalie is one of the toughest positions in all sports. But maybe her mom can answer your question a bit better than me. She has been reading this forum and gave us some good incite already.

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2 hours ago, Otis said:

I hope the young lady will be comfortable with all that attention. She may feel a lot of pressure and feel like she's under a microscope. The intentions are sincere, but it may be risky not knowing her personality/wishes. Sometimes a victim of an assault needs some space. Many don't come forward for a long time. I haven't seen any evidence that anyone posting here or anywhere else has offered anything but good intentions, but I wouldn't be sure that this will work out as well as we hope.

I assure you that Mars was contacted and a conversation was had.  A lot of players know and play with her. A lot of players know players on the Mars team and the coach. ALL PIHL coaches know each other and most board members. These players play together outside of PIHL weekly. The implication of ill intensions is head scratching. 

 

BTW...You realize they moved the event to a larger venue as teams and players are coming from all over. It's on Yahoo news, TMZ and an Olympian tweeted about it. 

 

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9 hours ago, long time hockey fan said:

 Third, for a period of time (maybe the rest of this year) make Armstrong students be required to pre-purchase tickets to get into the game and have to provide their student ID to get one so administrators know who was there if trouble arises.  

They have banned all students from attending the games for the rest of the year but this is a FANTASTIC idea moving forward. 

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7 hours ago, Wes said:

Question about the incident - perhaps I missed this in an earlier post.

Is there any accountability for the refs in all of this?  If the goalie can hear the chants, the refs certainly can.  I haven't seen a single quote from the referees from the game, on this subject.  

Will the PIHL have anything to say to the refs (or the refs face any sanctions) about why they didn't stop the game and handle this immediately?

The whole incident could have been vastly different had this been dealt with mid-game, rather than letting the whole thing transpire and blow up on social media and in the forum.

 

You seem to have it out for the refs in this game. Did they call a penalty on your kid once or something?

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8 hours ago, Hockey22 said:

I hear that Seneca Valley, North Allegheny and Pine Richland Varsity teams will all be there to show their support as well as show the community that hockey is for everyone and the events at the Armstrong game are not tolerated nor acceptable to other teams/players/coaches/fans in our area. The Pittsburgh Penguins Elite Girls, along with many other local girls' teams, plan to attend and wear white jerseys in support of Willow!!!

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