Jump to content

Armstrong vs Mars incident


Recommended Posts

2 hours ago, hockeyisgreat said:

Officating epidemic: Referees fleeing youth sports because of abuse, low pay, increased costs

This article was in the Observer Reporter today.  Behind a paywall but I'm sure it relates to Hockey as well.  Not a new problem but people should think about it before getting on the Refs at games.  Without them we don't play the games.

That's nice and I agree, however they still bear some responsibility for what happened. 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, BeaverFalls said:

Problem is because there are so few officials available they take and use anyone. Not the best and brightest. Not saying that’s the case for all of them by far but there so few out there that crews are doing HS games that 30 years ago would’ve been doing peewee games at best. 

Well, these two were experienced enough to know better. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

16 hours ago, nemesis8679 said:

 

21 hours ago, BeaverFalls said:

Problem is because there are so few officials available they take and use anyone. Not the best and brightest. Not saying that’s the case for all of them by far but there so few out there that crews are doing HS games that 30 years ago would’ve been doing peewee games at best. 

I get it, but the low numbers are used too often as a shield imho. Primary responsibility of the refs is to protect the players. Miss an offsides, goal, fine. Ignore the bad behavior right in front of you...I think we should be complaining.

Our governing bodies share some blame for this. There are players who develop a rep for only playing to hurt kids and they get passed around from organization to organization, rather than being booted entirely from the game. Kids booted from their school teams get too much time in PAHL to continue to target children and vice versa. I don't know how many times last year I heard that there is no point to complain about no calls or light punishment rendered by refs for serious injuries rendered by these types of players because there aren't enough refs. The checking rules requiring a play to be made for the puck are STILL rarely called, and we've had that for a few years now. Puck kinda only needs to be in the vacinity for a check to be ok. Call it, call the late hits.

What happened to the Mars goalie and the type of behavior I just described, we really need you, refs. Please protect our kids.

I hear your complaints as well, refs. The behavior in the stands is also a huge problem. Organizations need to start policing their own. Help the refs out by not being an ahole and helping to figure out how to curb the aholes sitting next to you. The refs and USA Hockey and PIHL, PAHL etc have been pleading with us to do so for years.

Armstrong apparently didn't care and/or bother to try and curb behavior for years and became subject to some national level embarrassment. Wake up call for all programs.

It is a multi pronged issue with many shoulders that responsibility falls on. In this thread, I have seen responsibility being handed off and deflected. We need to all be a part of the solution.

We need to do better by our kids.

Edited by Saucey
Wrong person quoted
  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 3 weeks later...
8 hours ago, hockeyisgreat said:

https://whdh.com/news/necessary-mass-hockey-launches-reporting-system-for-violations-by-parents-spectators-following-brawl-at-youth-game-in-tewksbury/

The PIHL and PAHL should start this here!  Maybe it would help with behavior at all games if it was enforced.  How do we get it on their radar?

News of this has spread far and wide, I assure you. Everyone is aware of it. It will be interesting to see if more organizations implement it or something like it, and how effective it is at actually changing behaviors.

It's worth also noting that reporting parents after the fact isn't the same thing as everyone having taken appropriate action at the time, but it's an interesting development. As hard as it is to find decent officials nowadays something like this is probably needed.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 1 month later...
23 hours ago, BACKCHECKING said:

Any update on how the young lady is doing, have any changes been implemented and enforced, did the referees get any repercussions?

All good questions?  Is no news good or bad?  Is it all forgotten except for your questions?  I would think we would hear of any other incidents occurring!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 1/6/2022 at 12:34 PM, BACKCHECKING said:

Any update on how the young lady is doing, have any changes been implemented and enforced, did the referees get any repercussions?

I can confirm that the referees received no repercussions from this and you are an absolute moron for thinking that they should be punished. Crowd control is not the job of the referee, check the USA hockey rule book and every officiating class ever taught. The crowd control responsibility falls on the sleepy security guard in the lobby who PIHL employs at every game for such instances. The security guard should be crowd controlling instead of sleeping in the lobby like most of them do. Has anyone mentioned that the guard is the one who deserves to not be hired to another game ever again? 

  • Like 1
  • Dislike 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

If there was a yell, "hey ref you suck", I guarantee they'd be thrown out. I've seen it many times. So I don't buy any excuses from the refs. And while I'm on that: the refs have a hard job. But I'm tired of hearing, "we have such a hard time getting refs because they're abused". Sorry, it's part of the job. You can choose to control it, or ignore it. How hard is that? Oh, and a lot of the "abuse" is legit criticism for frankly some terrible officiating and total lack of controlling a game. Some of it is out of line and obviously unacceptable. Nobody's perfect and calls are going to be missed and bad calls made. But I've seen more abusive language hurled at the players than the refs, who I remind everyone, are children. Again, no one should be name-calling or threatening refs or anybody else. But lately in my observation this is just becoming an excuse to permit bad officiating. 

That said, I've seen many games that were called perfectly. Usually when I see who the refs are I know how it will go. 

 

And I agree, that guard shouldn't work a game ever again. 

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

The referees absolutely should have been punished. If they can throw someone out for yelling at them, they can, and absolutely have the responsibility to throw out people that are abusing players. As a a matter of fact, I would suggest that referees fall under the mandatory reporter guidelines and should have reported this behavior to authorities themselves. This is also true of any USA Hockey and safesport mandatory reporter present. This abuse was not the “hey you suck” type of abuse. It was sexual in nature and therefore would fall as an event that requires mandatory reporting. 
 

The referees at the next Armstrong home game were excellent. They hustled and called penalties according to the rules. (Against both teams) They were not the same as the ones that did the Mars game. 

Edited by Happy Hockey Fan
  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I make no judgement as to fault or responsibility regarding officials or security guards.

But at a Mars game last night the on ice official threw the entire Mars student section out.

I wasn’t at that end of the ice but play stopped until the student section left.

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

12 hours ago, nemesis8679 said:

Oh, and a lot of the "abuse" is legit criticism for frankly some terrible officiating and total lack of controlling a game. Some of it is out of line and obviously unacceptable.

And I agree, that guard shouldn't work a game ever again. 

Agreed all around that the security guy failed in his basic duty and should never be hired to work a PIHL game again.

However, I have to disagree with the first sentence I left above. The vast majority of yelling at the referees that I hear is parents who have been watching their kids play for years and still don't understand what a hook or a trip is. Most of the yelling I hear comes from people who have no idea what they are talking about.

Finally, even if the criticism is warranted, is yelling like a five year old having a tantrum a good idea? Let's ask the refs on this forum to weigh in on how often they change the way they're calling a game in favor of the parents whining from the stands, shall we? As a coach I can tell you I hate it when parents make fools of themselves this way. You can sometimes discuss a call from the bench with a ref and at least get a makeup call, and the better guys in the business either explain and keep going the way the have been or make adjustments if you make a good point. Screaming parents make that hard to do.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

25 minutes ago, Lifelongbender said:

Agreed all around that the security guy failed in his basic duty and should never be hired to work a PIHL game again.

However, I have to disagree with the first sentence I left above. The vast majority of yelling at the referees that I hear is parents who have been watching their kids play for years and still don't understand what a hook or a trip is. Most of the yelling I hear comes from people who have no idea what they are talking about.

Finally, even if the criticism is warranted, is yelling like a five year old having a tantrum a good idea? Let's ask the refs on this forum to weigh in on how often they change the way they're calling a game in favor of the parents whining from the stands, shall we? As a coach I can tell you I hate it when parents make fools of themselves this way. You can sometimes discuss a call from the bench with a ref and at least get a makeup call, and the better guys in the business either explain and keep going the way the have been or make adjustments if you make a good point. Screaming parents make that hard to do.

This is well put. Let me make another point as well: just as there is a shortage of fast food workers and waiters that makes your wait time longer at restaurants and there is a shortage of flight attendants and pilots that cancel your flights there is an extreme shortage of referees. They are burnt out, tired of skating 10 games a weekend and every week night, and naturally you’re going to have less talented officials on the ice because that’s all that is available. Screaming at them and “punishing” them won’t help this scenario. And as much as you keep wanting to complain about the officiating, keep in mind that the soon arriving alternative is canceled games due to no officials being available. 
 

Food for thought on this chilly Saturday afternoon. 

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

It has nothing to do with me keeping "wanting to complain" about officiating. If you noticed, I noted there are a lot of great refs and perfectly officiated games. They're making 50-some bucks a game, just do the job. I've seen everything from putting the wrong player in the box, to faceoffs in the wrong place on the ice. A lot of them could do much better.  And by the same token some of them go above and beyond to do a good job and not let their own ego get in the way. 

 

And as mentioned above, yeah, parents are obnoxious sometimes. They should be warned, then tossed. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 minutes ago, nemesis8679 said:

It has nothing to do with me keeping "wanting to complain" about officiating. If you noticed, I noted there are a lot of great refs and perfectly officiated games. They're making 50-some bucks a game, just do the job. I've seen everything from putting the wrong player in the box, to faceoffs in the wrong place on the ice. A lot of them could do much better.  And by the same token some of them go above and beyond to do a good job and not let their own ego get in the way. 

 

And as mentioned above, yeah, parents are obnoxious sometimes. They should be warned, then tossed. 

There are good and bad. The problem I see is that there are no repercussions for the bad. The lack of discipline for the refs involved in the Mars game is a prime example. And I feel that there needs to be evaluations done on all referees throughout the year. The current system does not do enough evaluation in my opinion. 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

34 minutes ago, Happy Hockey Fan said:

There are good and bad. The problem I see is that there are no repercussions for the bad. The lack of discipline for the refs involved in the Mars game is a prime example. And I feel that there needs to be evaluations done on all referees throughout the year. The current system does not do enough evaluation in my opinion. 

That's exactly it- no repercussions. 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Associated Press Article about Officials:

Youth sports referees are quitting in droves due to a toxic combination of abuse from coaches and parents, low salaries, and COVID-19
Heather Schlitz Aug 15, 2021, 7:17 AM

Referees are leaving youth sports in droves. Kurt Voigt/Associated Press
The pandemic, low pay, and abuse has triggered an exodus of referees from youth sports.
The loss of hundreds of referees each season could lead to game cancellations and delays. 
Inexperienced referees charged with officiating fast-paced games could endanger players. 
 

From a brawl breaking out at a youth baseball game to a furious coach screaming at and shoving an umpire, youth sports officials have had to deal with chaos on and off the field, on top of low pay for years.

But combined with the pandemic, referees are leaving youth sports at such a quick pace that it could lead to a disastrous shortage of officials this coming fall. 

"There were so many referees quitting at an alarming rate before corona. With corona on top of it all, it's an epidemic of referee shortages," Brian Barlow, a soccer referee for 14 years and creator of Offside, a Facebook page that shames unruly parents, spectators, and coaches at games and advocates for respectful treatment of referees.

Seventy percent of referees quit within three years of starting, according to The New York Times, and 57% of referees surveyed thought sportsmanship was getting worse, with respondents saying that parents, coaches, and fans set off the biggest problems.


"A lot of referees in their first year quit because the parents, the coaches and the players are so hateful and say such awful things. They don't want the 40 bucks they're paid. If there's that much mental abuse, they don't want it. They're leaving." Barlow said. Referee numbers in soccer have dropped continuously for years, with Illinois losing 11% of high school referees in the 2018-2019 soccer season even as the number of young soccer players increases.

Peter Makeover, the CEO of Payball, an app for paying officials, coaches and event staff, said referees rarely earn a living from officiating, and most become officials to to earn extra money and stay connected to the game they love.

"But when they don't get that sense of connection, it simply isn't worth their time," he said.

The pandemic has also pushed a growing number referees out, with officials leaving out of fear of getting sick and others quitting over disagreements about masking requirements. The pandemic halted games in some sports for months, which sparked other referees to realize that the industry wasn't for them, Barlow said. 


"A lot of them use it [the pandemic] as an excuse to not referee anymore. They're already getting burnt out. Then you realize 'it's nice not having people yell at me, judging me, and threatening me.'"

Barlow said the drop in referees is already having a negative effect, as games are getting cancelled and fewer referees officiate each game. 

A decline in the number of referees could be especially damaging in contact sports like football, where the shortage has already resulted in inexperienced officials being promoted to work fast-paced varsity-level games, where a green official might struggle to signal penalties that could cause injuries for players, the Chicago Tribune reported. 

"You have to get those fouls," Laurie Jordan of the Inter-Athletic Council of Officials, told the Chicago Tribune. "We don't want any players hurt or knocked out of the game. We don't want the possibility of concussions. When the game moves that much faster, the officials have to move that much faster, and it becomes very difficult."


Sports organizations and administrators have to hold coaches and parents accountable for their behavior and pay referees more if they want to have enough people to officiate their games, Makeover said. 

But despite the looming fall season, there hasn't been a systematic effort to pay referees better or reduce the amount of physical and verbal abuse officials are subjected to, beyond isolated efforts in certain club teams or school districts. 

"We've made it OK to treat officials who do a hard job like shit," Barlow said


    •  
 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, nemesis8679 said:

It has nothing to do with me keeping "wanting to complain" about officiating. If you noticed, I noted there are a lot of great refs and perfectly officiated games. They're making 50-some bucks a game, just do the job. I've seen everything from putting the wrong player in the box, to faceoffs in the wrong place on the ice. A lot of them could do much better.  And by the same token some of them go above and beyond to do a good job and not let their own ego get in the way. 

 

And as mentioned above, yeah, parents are obnoxious sometimes. They should be warned, then tossed. 

Sounds like you should start officiating.  I will bet you never have.  It is not as easy as it looks.   

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

18 minutes ago, hockeyisgreat said:

Associated Press Article about Officials:

Youth sports referees are quitting in droves due to a toxic combination of abuse from coaches and parents, low salaries, and COVID-19
Heather Schlitz Aug 15, 2021, 7:17 AM

Referees are leaving youth sports in droves. Kurt Voigt/Associated Press
The pandemic, low pay, and abuse has triggered an exodus of referees from youth sports.
The loss of hundreds of referees each season could lead to game cancellations and delays. 
Inexperienced referees charged with officiating fast-paced games could endanger players. 
 

From a brawl breaking out at a youth baseball game to a furious coach screaming at and shoving an umpire, youth sports officials have had to deal with chaos on and off the field, on top of low pay for years.

But combined with the pandemic, referees are leaving youth sports at such a quick pace that it could lead to a disastrous shortage of officials this coming fall. 

"There were so many referees quitting at an alarming rate before corona. With corona on top of it all, it's an epidemic of referee shortages," Brian Barlow, a soccer referee for 14 years and creator of Offside, a Facebook page that shames unruly parents, spectators, and coaches at games and advocates for respectful treatment of referees.

Seventy percent of referees quit within three years of starting, according to The New York Times, and 57% of referees surveyed thought sportsmanship was getting worse, with respondents saying that parents, coaches, and fans set off the biggest problems.


"A lot of referees in their first year quit because the parents, the coaches and the players are so hateful and say such awful things. They don't want the 40 bucks they're paid. If there's that much mental abuse, they don't want it. They're leaving." Barlow said. Referee numbers in soccer have dropped continuously for years, with Illinois losing 11% of high school referees in the 2018-2019 soccer season even as the number of young soccer players increases.

Peter Makeover, the CEO of Payball, an app for paying officials, coaches and event staff, said referees rarely earn a living from officiating, and most become officials to to earn extra money and stay connected to the game they love.

"But when they don't get that sense of connection, it simply isn't worth their time," he said.

The pandemic has also pushed a growing number referees out, with officials leaving out of fear of getting sick and others quitting over disagreements about masking requirements. The pandemic halted games in some sports for months, which sparked other referees to realize that the industry wasn't for them, Barlow said. 


"A lot of them use it [the pandemic] as an excuse to not referee anymore. They're already getting burnt out. Then you realize 'it's nice not having people yell at me, judging me, and threatening me.'"

Barlow said the drop in referees is already having a negative effect, as games are getting cancelled and fewer referees officiate each game. 

A decline in the number of referees could be especially damaging in contact sports like football, where the shortage has already resulted in inexperienced officials being promoted to work fast-paced varsity-level games, where a green official might struggle to signal penalties that could cause injuries for players, the Chicago Tribune reported. 

"You have to get those fouls," Laurie Jordan of the Inter-Athletic Council of Officials, told the Chicago Tribune. "We don't want any players hurt or knocked out of the game. We don't want the possibility of concussions. When the game moves that much faster, the officials have to move that much faster, and it becomes very difficult."


Sports organizations and administrators have to hold coaches and parents accountable for their behavior and pay referees more if they want to have enough people to officiate their games, Makeover said. 

But despite the looming fall season, there hasn't been a systematic effort to pay referees better or reduce the amount of physical and verbal abuse officials are subjected to, beyond isolated efforts in certain club teams or school districts. 

"We've made it OK to treat officials who do a hard job like shit," Barlow said

 
  •  
    •  
    •  
    •  
    •  
    •  
    •  
    •  
    •  
    •  
    •  
    •  
  •  
  •  
  •  
  •  
  •  
  •  
 

 

Something that your statement touched on was players not getting called for penalties that have great potential to hurt someone. That is definitely one of the problems I see at the JV and varsity level. And it isn’t because they are young referees that don’t know what they are doing. I feel that is the opposite, in that some older referees refuse to call the game according to the updated head contact and checking rules. 
 

And as I said previously, if there is no evaluation of how referees call games, there is no way it will improve. 
 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hap - I doubt that you are or ever were an official. How do you know how frequently evals occur? If the evaluators are doing their job nobody but the officials will ever know they are in the building and I can assure that that they do happen. It would be nice to see them happen more frequently but that is very difficult to make happen. If you think there is a shortage of officials then you should think about the qualifications needed to evaluate and supervise and look at that pool. The evaluator needs to be experienced, respected by the officials being evaluated, be able to both teach and chastise in a positive manner that will be accepted and assimilated by the officials. So you want to take the better\best active officials out of your pool of skaters to go watch games and evaluate... sure you do..... but those officials can make a hell of a lot more money skating than watching so why would they give up hundreds of dollars skating to watch other officials make those dollars...... These guys are already out there 4-6 nights a week, you want them out all 7 days of the week? You must be a divorce lawyer. If you want more evals then you gotta convince better retired officials (who got out because they were burnt out and are enjoying not being at a rink all the time) to get back into the mix. Are you ready to pay for them? Assuming that the game fees for officials have gone up over the last few years then the total cost per varsity game for officials is conservatively $250+ to cover the two officials game fees and the scheduling fee. If you want me to do an eval I can guarantee that I'm not doing it for less than ~$80 per official per game.... and I'm probably low-balling myself as my time and experience are worth a lot more than that..... don't forget that I'm doing it to make money so whatever I get paid has to cover the IRS mileage rate for my round trip and still pay me enough to be worth my time to even be considered (my personal standard for accepting any assignment - screw this volunteer crap PAY ME NOW cuz that's the way the world works now). To put that mileage thing in perspective, think about the mileage that one would rack up traveling to Wheeling, Morgantown, Erie, or State College if you are geographically centered between them.... SO you are talking over 100 miles round trip

 

As for sanctions on officials that some of you are calling for, what would satisfy you - How about we draw, quarter, and hang the body parts at the four corners of your kingdom? And just what make you think that any sanction would ever me made public without the involvement of a bunch of lawyers? There have been officials suspended for weeks, months, even entire seasons. You just never hear about it.

Edited by GrumpyOldPucker
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×
×
  • Create New...