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What if the Pittsburgh Penguins and Philadelphia Flyers got together and really supported Youth Hockey and the Community School Programs it serves?


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The short and cynical answer is because Pittsburgh is small professional football town who cheers for the professional hockey team when they are playing well. People don't give a crap about high school sports here. 

The long answer is there is simply no point in comparing Pittsburgh to Minnesota.

High School Hockey in Minnesota is the pinnacle of top level play there. Every single youth organization feeds into their high school program, and every single kid that wears that sweater WANTS to play for their school. The varsity teams practice every day after school. These kids don't play for multiple teams. They play for their school and that's it. The high school games are packed every single night because the towns rally around them the way they rally around high school football in TX.  The kids that don't play for the school essentially play high level in house. The only AAA hockey in MN is played during the spring and summer. There are dedicated newspapers, and websites and talk shows about MN high school hockey. People who don't have any kids on the team go to the games. Offices take their employees to games as a night out. People tailgate in the parking lots. Most arenas have a local water hole nearby that the old timers hang out at and watch the game on TV. When people talk about "did you catch the game last night?" its not about the Vikings game, its about the Edina vs Eden Prairie varsity game. It is an incredible atmosphere to witness. I highly suggest going to a game or two if you ever get the chance. I had the pleasure of living in MN for 3 years and saw some amazing hockey. The state championship sells out the Xcel center. There's nothing like it and Pittsburgh will unfortunately never get there.

With how many AAA and "faux AAA", AA and National Bound teams here, there is no set in stone pinnacle of hockey. There is no community support for the high school teams, hell 99% of the teams are CLUB sports for their schools! They don't even have the financial backing of their own school! Most schools don't have youth programs too which is a HUGE issue. Some schools have "developmental" programs for the mites/squirts/peewees where they practice once a week and MAYBE play a scrimmage or two. That needs to change. Get these kids and parents on board from the start. Why can first and second graders play football for their school and play in actual games against other schools on the weekends but we can't do the same for hockey kids? Imagine how much pride those kids would have for their school if they did it from the beginning?

As much as its a nice thought that the Pens and Flyers would support high school hockey, they wont. They both have their own "Junior" teams (PPE and Jr. Flyers) and those parents help pay for their practice facilities and that's all they care about. 

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I am anti school hockey.  I get it the kids have fun but most of the time it is bad hockey.  Just not enough kids to fill teams appropriately.  For example we have a AAA senior and a bunch of kids who have never even came close to playing AA.  That is even ignoring the age difference.

And it is expensive.  We complain about the cost of AAA or faux AAA hockey and yet we want our kids to play for club teams and their school.   

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Unfortunately for many schools, HS hockey has turned into the modern day in-house. The prevalence of AAA and AA programs in the area is correlated to that. I’m not getting into the legitimacy of those AAA/AA teams, but you can’t play a 40-80 game schedule with 2-3 practices a week and then turn around and take seriously another 20 HS games.  It’s overload and why a lot of players either don’t bother playing HS or treat it like in-house. 
 

 

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School hockey is a blast for the kids.  My kids play both and I still get together with the guys I played with almost thirty years ago.  My oldest son did not want to play school hockey at first but now he has as much fun if not more playing with his friends from school.  Sure it is expensive but if you play AAA school hockey or even AA at the Varsity level it is very competitive and fun.  The divisions below that are a bit rough as they just don't have enough kids to field quality teams.  It is expensive for the price but  if these wanna be AAA teams didn't travel so much to play another bunch of wanna be  AAA teams they would be able to put that money toward the school team.  Two tournaments with travel and hotels typically will cost you about $1000 each.  That is tourney fee, cost to drive, hotels and food to play what 8 or maybe 10 games total.  Now that is a waste.

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Honestly, having a pro team I don't think helps get people to attend or follow the high school, PAHL, junior, or college teams, at all, to be honest. 

Most people are going to follow the pro team that's close. By close, I'd say within 45 minutes of travel distance. Attending/watching/following a minimum 82 games takes up a good chunk of time. Semi-pro teams or amateur teams do a lot better when they're the only game in town and get TV time, news coverage, and attendance (college being helped a lot by having an on-campus arena in an area with nothing much else to do, which also doesn't exist around here). 

Combine that with school support where they don't even mention on the morning announcements upcoming hockey games, and you're lucky if they even announce the score of the hockey game the day after. 

 

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On 11/10/2021 at 11:15 PM, Pa Hockey said:

5 Stanley Cups for the Pittsburgh Penguins doesn't mean much does it?  Wow ............Really?

No it doesn’t.  Pittsburgh is not a hockey town.  It’s a Penguins town or maybe a Crosby town, but not a hockey town.  It’s lack of support of youth, college and junior hockey shows.  If you think Pittsburgh is on par with Minnesota, Boston, Chicago etc, you may not have spent enough time there to understand the difference.  Sorry 

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Anyone notice the empty seats at PPG and how cheap tickets are now on sites like StubHub and Seat Geek for Pens games?  I went to last nights game - two seats, lower bowl for under $90.  Is it because Sid and Geno are not on the ice?  If so, imagine what its gonna look like when they are gone.

True hockey towns have high attendance and interest when their teams are good or bad.  Not here, and when the boys are retired and gone youth hockey will take a huge hit here. Do I want to see it happen?  No, but reality is coming soon.

As far as the Pens helping to develop youth hockey in western PA, I recall PPE was founded on that concept.  Not anymore, and as many have said on this thread the Pens are all about the dollar and its brand, nothing more.  Just look at any of the U14 and above rosters to see how many imports are holding roster spots.  

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Pens model of development is like giving out some 'seed money'. Like donations here and there for various rink upgrades around town. Building deks around town. Buying the jerseys for a program. Hosting youth hockey websites. They want to empower others to develop the game, be in the background, not owners of it. You can disagree with that, but they are a private entity. Although encouraging development is good for them in the long run for their fan base.

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1 hour ago, Saucey said:

Pens model of development is like giving out some 'seed money'. Like donations here and there for various rink upgrades around town. Building deks around town. Buying the jerseys for a program. Hosting youth hockey websites. They want to empower others to develop the game, be in the background, not owners of it. You can disagree with that, but they are a private entity. Although encouraging development is good for them in the long run for their fan base.

I agree and this is what the Penguins Foundation was developed for. There is a greater cause that would put this over the top and serve High School, Travel and Collegiate Hockey and bring interest to 3rd party people who may not be involved with the game. 

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4 minutes ago, Pa Hockey said:

I agree and this is what the Penguins Foundation was developed for. There is a greater cause that would put this over the top and serve High School, Travel and Collegiate Hockey and bring interest to 3rd party people who may not be involved with the game. 

I asked this before, what more do you see the Foundation doing? I couldn't make it out from your original post. Buying the rinks?  I don't really know how the programs you mentioned as examples are run, so I was curious for more details.

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All great points here. To be honest, I think the person who mentioned the Jr Flyers and PPE has the right idea. Most high schools on this side of the state have barely enough kids to have a team, if they have one at all. Amateur hockey doesn't have the problem of school boundaries. In my time, I've seen lacrosse go from a niche, club sport, to fully sanctioned. So it's possible to see, but unlikely given that there are so few kids playing HS hockey. It's a lot of resources to invest in a small number of people. 

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49 minutes ago, Spear and Magic Helmet said:

All great points here. To be honest, I think the person who mentioned the Jr Flyers and PPE has the right idea. Most high schools on this side of the state have barely enough kids to have a team, if they have one at all. Amateur hockey doesn't have the problem of school boundaries. In my time, I've seen lacrosse go from a niche, club sport, to fully sanctioned. So it's possible to see, but unlikely given that there are so few kids playing HS hockey. It's a lot of resources to invest in a small number of people. 

I am not asking for schools to foot the entire bill.  I would like to see them allocate a similar amount of money to hockey  that they give to the other school sports.  I believe they pay for coaches, travel, uniforms,....

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1 hour ago, Carl Racki said:

I am not asking for schools to foot the entire bill.  I would like to see them allocate a similar amount of money to hockey  that they give to the other school sports.  I believe they pay for coaches, travel, uniforms,....

Don't schools foot the bill for Football, Basketball, etc.  Why not Hockey!   Someone was saying numbers of players doesn't justify the expense.  Seems to me there are JV teams at most every school and some even have 2 teams.  I haven't seen too many schools skating short this year.

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10 minutes ago, hockeyisgreat said:

Don't schools foot the bill for Football, Basketball, etc.  Why not Hockey!   Someone was saying numbers of players doesn't justify the expense.  Seems to me there are JV teams at most every school and some even have 2 teams.  I haven't seen too many schools skating short this year.

Because the cost is too high. Most schools have their own football fields and multipurpose courts for basketball/volleyball etc that are already paid for by the taxpayers therefore they aren't having to rent ice time for practices and games. Ok, so then people ask why don't schools just have their own arena for their teams? Awesome idea however the cost to build a single sheet arena is probably around 3-5 million and then to maintain and upkeep is likely close to $30-40k a month. There is no way a public school could afford that so we are left with paying the $300+ per hour for ice time, which really adds up.

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I personally feel that the boat has been missed. It sailed long ago and sunk in a storm. In the late 1990's and early 2000's there were over 125 programs that had varsity teams, most also had JV and Freshman teams. When the leagues unified as the PIHL it should have been under the auspices of either PIAA or NFHS..... not a local stand alone league (but that was as much a control issue as anything. They also should have got together with the PAHL and found a way to make a split season work.

Regarding the money side - In 1995 the program I was involved with had all 3 teams and practiced 3 days a week  (6 hours of ice divided between the 3 teams, some joint practices, some split ice, some full ice), with paid coaches. The school donated $5000 to the program and the budget for the year was north of $130k. There is no way most Western PA School boards are gonna fund a sport (in todays dollars) to the tune of $200K+ A YEAR! And no way they are gonna fund a school district owned rink......

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On 11/12/2021 at 8:17 AM, fafa fohi said:

Anyone notice the empty seats at PPG and how cheap tickets are now on sites like StubHub and Seat Geek for Pens games?  I went to last nights game - two seats, lower bowl for under $90.  Is it because Sid and Geno are not on the ice?  If so, imagine what its gonna look like when they are gone.

True hockey towns have high attendance and interest when their teams are good or bad.  Not here, and when the boys are retired and gone youth hockey will take a huge hit here. Do I want to see it happen?  No, but reality is coming soon.

As far as the Pens helping to develop youth hockey in western PA, I recall PPE was founded on that concept.  Not anymore, and as many have said on this thread the Pens are all about the dollar and its brand, nothing more.  Just look at any of the U14 and above rosters to see how many imports are holding roster spots.  

OMG, I know you and I don’t see eye-to-eye on most things, but this post was spot-on.  Perfect examples of the state of hockey in Pittsburgh, well said.

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