Question for PIHL JV Coaches.

[Ron Shock]

I have watched many JV games over the years and it baffles me when I see a JV coach not run lines. Why? As a JV coach your job should be to develop players to move up to Varsity, not win games. If your organization is judging you on how many wins your team has instead of on how many players you can move up to Varsity skill level, That program is a gong show.

I have never heard a good reason to not run lines evenly. 
If you are a JV coach that doesn’t run lines, please defend your decision to not play kids. Change my mind. 

p.s. Parents of JV players, if you are ok with your team not running lines, then your kid is obviously on one of the top lines.

Edited February 7, 2022 by Ron Shock

[Happy Hockey Fan]

Absolutely correct sir!! The job of a JV coach is to develop ALL players. 

[HSFBLJ]

practice develops players, not games.  

[Jack Handey]

Been on both sides.  The explanation we got (years ago as parents) was that they are prepping the kids to understand how things work at Varsity, and Varsity doesn't roll lines. Seemed reasonable to me.  For our kids - they were mostly unaffected, got regular playing time, except one.  After a season of getting shorted, that one lost interest in school hockey.  Not our preference, but allowed for other interests to develop, and potentially saved us some bucks.

Also, most of the JV coaches make up the pool of prospects for when there is a Varsity vacancy.  So they have an incentive to perform.

[nemesis8679]

So I agree with what you're saying. That said, at that age, some kids don't listen well. Some kids are slow (physically slow but putting out effort is one thing, lack of effort is another), or not good shots, or make bad decisions. After all reasonable coaching efforts are made to improve that player, ice time is the next motivator. If you can't put in maximum effort and getting beat to the puck constantly or trying to skate through as many opposing players as you can before turning the puck over or you continue to be out of position or take too long of shifts or blindly throw the puck around- you shouldn't be taking ice time from those that are not doing these things. If so-and-so knows coach will put them out just the same as the kid who's blocking shots, racing to pucks, making hard passes, and they can continue to not play to maximum ability, there is no incentive to do any different. Yeah, that kid should be sitting more of the game than the kid who's working hard. Anything different is not fair to the kids who are busting their asses. It's okay to just want to play hockey and have a good time without getting too serious and getting the same ice time as everyone else- that's why there's in-house leagues. 

 

And to clarify, I'm not talking about players who just aren't as gifted as others, I'm talking players who aren't putting effort in. If maximum effort is being used, then that's a completely different story. 

 

Edited February 8, 2022 by nemesis8679

[carroll81]

5 hours ago, nemesis8679 said:

So I agree with what you're saying. That said, at that age, some kids don't listen well. Some kids are slow (physically slow but putting out effort is one thing, lack of effort is another), or not good shots, or make bad decisions. After all reasonable coaching efforts are made to improve that player, ice time is the next motivator. If you can't put in maximum effort and getting beat to the puck constantly or trying to skate through as many opposing players as you can before turning the puck over or you continue to be out of position or take too long of shifts or blindly throw the puck around- you shouldn't be taking ice time from those that are not doing these things. If so-and-so knows coach will put them out just the same as the kid who's blocking shots, racing to pucks, making hard passes, and they can continue to not play to maximum ability, there is no incentive to do any different. Yeah, that kid should be sitting more of the game than the kid who's working hard. Anything different is not fair to the kids who are busting their asses. It's okay to just want to play hockey and have a good time without getting too serious and getting the same ice time as everyone else- that's why there's in-house leagues. 

 

And to clarify, I'm not talking about players who just aren't as gifted as others, I'm talking players who aren't putting effort in. If maximum effort is being used, then that's a completely different story. 

 

I agree with this and would add that sometimes you are up against an opponent that not everyone will be able to compete against.  So, a third line might go every other shift or not get a penalty kill shift.  But, then you make it up to them on a game where they can have more success.

[twoboys]

So, high school hockey is developmental?  Hockey parents are crazy to expect equal playing time.  Playing time for other high school sports is not equal.   If you want to play you better be able to contribute.

[hockeyisgreat]

11 minutes ago, twoboys said:

So, high school hockey is developmental?  Hockey parents are crazy to expect equal playing time.  Playing time for other high school sports is not equal.   If you want to play you better be able to contribute.

I agree 100%. By the time kids get to High School they should understand that the effort they put out in practice and games correlates to amount of playing time.  Fact of life. Sports or not.

[Denis Lemiuex]

3 hours ago, twoboys said:

So, high school hockey is developmental?  Hockey parents are crazy to expect equal playing time.  Playing time for other high school sports is not equal.   If you want to play you better be able to contribute.

Wrong. Wrong. Wrong. Varsity yes. JV is development. No one cares what your JV record is. No one cares that your kid scored 30 goals in JV.  That's the problem with HS hockey. The good programs develop all their players to the best of their availability and work in tandem with the V coach. Sadly most JV coaches just care about W/Ls. I told one JV coach who had 16 skaters and used only 10 for 90 percent of the game he must be embarrassed that he is such a lousy coach that he could not develop his players so they could play more  than one shift a period. He wasn't happy but what's his comeback. I ran up and down my bench and won. And the program I was at wasn't one of the area blue bloods while his had 2 JV teams and 2 MS teams.

[Happy Hockey Fan]

A few things. 
 

If a kid is doing stupid things or not giving effort that is a good reason to have them sit some shifts.  But otherwise roll them. 
 

Hockey is different than all other high school sports in that it cost parents around $3000 a year, so comparing playing time at the JV levels in hockey and other sports is moot. Everyone that makes a team should be playing. 

 

JV is developmental in all sports. That is why they have it, to hopefully develop kids into varsity players. Any coach that ignores this shouldn’t be coaching kids at this level. 
 

Win and loss records in JV shouldn’t matter at all in the PIHL. All JV teams are eligible for playoffs, and PIHL tries to place each team in a playoff division in which they can compete. (Too bad they do a poor job of placing teams for the regular season. For example, placing a team with a U18AAA player in the lowest division so that kid can score 5 goals a game against true JV players. Which has happened at Highlands and Deer Lakes in the past 4 years.) 

And lastly, if you are a varsity coach and demean or ignore of the JV team as a way to develop future players you are doing your organization a serious disservice. 

 

 

[Carl Racki]

21 hours ago, twoboys said:

So, high school hockey is developmental?  Hockey parents are crazy to expect equal playing time.  Playing time for other high school sports is not equal.   If you want to play you better be able to contribute.

As a guy that has played, coached and currently has kids playing it is my opinion that it should be mostly equal playing time at the JV level.  Maybe the last few minutes in a tight game go for it or a power play/ pk  near the end.  For the most part it should be equal ice time with a few bones thrown in for motivation.  The coaches job is to develop and push the players to the maximum potential. 

Also, any more than three lines at the highschool level doesn't make sense.  Three lines is plenty.  You can always call up if you are short players.  Varsity should be earned time but again a good coach will be able to develop HARDWORKING players and playing time should about even out.  The better players get more ice time in tight games and a little less in the blowout games. 

It's not highschool football.  People are paying $2000+ to play.  That being said, my kids MS team runs a power play and pk sometimes.  It is earned.  I would personally roll lines except for the playoffs maybe but they don't.  It is usually the older players on the pp so it evens out over the years.

[Jack Handey]

1 hour ago, Carl Racki said:

I would personally roll lines except for the playoffs maybe but they don't. 

If structured properly, MS and JV should also be doing the same drills and introducing the same systems that varsity uses.  Since Varsity doesn't roll lines, and MS and JV are feeders to Varsity, most MS and JV teams are setting the expectation with the youth that the program is about winning, not development.  If you are not getting any playing time for your $2-3k, the money is probably better spent on PAHL teams, house programs, private lessons, or better yet the family 529 plan.  

[PUCKCOVID19]

what ever happened to earning your ice time?    if ou bust your ass in practice and in weight room and are doing the other things then obv it'll show and you have earned your ice time for that weeks game. EVERY kid has good and bad weeks. few weeks later that 3rd line little Johnny might have busted his ass earned more ice time and maybe put up a point or 2. Now little Johnny is on a roll and might get another shot next week with another week of hard practices....

 

NOW Y'all want equal ice time for ALL? really. thats pretty sad...EARN IT!!!!!!!!!! 

 

THIS GENERATION WOULDNT SURVUVE BOOT CAMP AT THE ARMY OR MARINES!!!!! 

[Jack Handey]

17 minutes ago, PUCKCOVID19 said:

if ou bust your ass in practice and in weight room

Are there any PIHL programs that offer access to a weight room or professional off-ice group training?

[Saucey]

26 minutes ago, Jack Handey said:

Are there any PIHL programs that offer access to a weight room or professional off-ice group training?

Yes

[Denis Lemiuex]

5 hours ago, PUCKCOVID19 said:

what ever happened to earning your ice time?    if ou bust your ass in practice and in weight room and are doing the other things then obv it'll show and you have earned your ice time for that weeks game. EVERY kid has good and bad weeks. few weeks later that 3rd line little Johnny might have busted his ass earned more ice time and maybe put up a point or 2. Now little Johnny is on a roll and might get another shot next week with another week of hard practices....

 

NOW Y'all want equal ice time for ALL? really. thats pretty sad...EARN IT!!!!!!!!!! 

 

THIS GENERATION WOULDNT SURVUVE BOOT CAMP AT THE ARMY OR MARINES!!!!! 

This is so funny. So you are saying the best player on the team misses a practice and off ice team activities because of PAHL conflicts you would bench him in favor of a less talented player who made all these things that week.  And I should have added in my first post that yes if there is a discipline problem or total lack of effort the kid should lose ice time. But hey. If you or your coach doesn't have the talent to develop the least talented player enough to allow him to contribute on a regular basis then maybe some self awareness is needed.

[Carl Racki]

9 hours ago, Jack Handey said:

If structured properly, MS and JV should also be doing the same drills and introducing the same systems that varsity uses.  Since Varsity doesn't roll lines, and MS and JV are feeders to Varsity, most MS and JV teams are setting the expectation with the youth that the program is about winning, not development.  If you are not getting any playing time for your $2-3k, the money is probably better spent on PAHL teams, house programs, private lessons, or better yet the family 529 plan.  

Jack Handy, like I said by Varsity it should be earned.  I have coached for many years.  It is rare on the higher level teams that you have players that do not try to compete.  Again, JV and Middle School should be mostly equal time with maybe a power play line here and there and maybe put out your best players for some extra time in the last few minutes in a tight game.  They are still learning, developing, and hopefully gaining confidence. That won't happen sitting on the bench and skating around cones.  Just my opinion.   Should squirts not get close to equal playing time, pee wee, ...  What age?  Or do you think mites should have to earn their playing time and sit the kids that don't?

[hockeyisgreat]

12 hours ago, Carl Racki said:

Jack Handy, like I said by Varsity it should be earned.  I have coached for many years.  It is rare on the higher level teams that you have players that do not try to compete.  Again, JV and Middle School should be mostly equal time with maybe a power play line here and there and maybe put out your best players for some extra time in the last few minutes in a tight game.  They are still learning, developing, and hopefully gaining confidence. That won't happen sitting on the bench and skating around cones.  Just my opinion.   Should squirts not get close to equal playing time, pee wee, ...  What age?  Or do you think mites should have to earn their playing time and sit the kids that don't?

Double edged sword here.  People are paying a lot of money to play.  But I still think anything after 14 years old should have earned playing time.  You earn playing time by working hard in practice and doing extra lessons and work off the ice to get better.  Most kids just aren't going to get that much better at practice 1 or 2 hours a week.  Play rec league if you want to play for fun.  If your kid is not getting on the ice enough in games ask him if he wants to get better and put in the time to make it happen.  Life is competition every day.  Hockey is no different.  People who work the hardest get rewarded.

[forbin]

13 hours ago, Carl Racki said:

 Should squirts not get close to equal playing time, pee wee, ...  What age?  Or do you think mites should have to earn their playing time and sit the kids that don't?

You'd be shocked how much this happens at the younger ages....

[hockeyisgreat]

4 hours ago, forbin said:

You'd be shocked how much this happens at the younger ages....

If it does I would be shocked because the younger ages are supposed to be development and fun!

[aaaahockey]

Big issue I have with school hockey (below varsity) is that you never know who is going to show up especially if you have a Thursday night game.  

[3 Boys]

On 2/10/2022 at 1:35 PM, hockeyisgreat said:

If it does I would be shocked because the younger ages are supposed to be development and fun!

Agree but is is shameful that for majority of the teams, even in B to A divisions, this is not the case.  I also agree that JV should be about developing for Varsity.  How good a JV team ends up being is never remembered - and so shouldn't be.  Roll the lines for majority of the game.

 

Hockey is on a downward spiral.  I have to find the article but it was written by a scout from a junior team stating how bad the state of hockey is becoming.  He said it's not just the kids but that the coaches are contributing to the problem by not disciplining the kids.  The scout wrote about how the kids are so selfish and not playing for the team.  Basically skating the puck end to end trying to do everything on their own and how coaches don't sit the kids for their mistakes.  It happens at all ages.  Heck, on my sons team we have kids that are repeat offenders for fighting and after their 1 or 2 game suspension the coach puts them right back out there.  Just a shame because not only does it hurt the team, in the end the kid doesn't learn that there are consequences for their actions.  This goes for kids that get the same "hot-head" penalties almost every game yet the coach puts them right back out there.  I know when I was an assistant coach for my one sons team, I had zero problem sitting him for not listening or for when the head coach sat him for a repeated penalty.  Today, he is a better player not making those dumb intentional penalties and more importantly a better person. 

Majority of these kids have no clue about the meaning of the word TEAM.  If they did there would be so much more passing and encouraging with each other but instead there is more dissent because there are no consequences.  

 

 

[Ron Shock]

On 2/8/2022 at 11:19 AM, twoboys said:

So, high school hockey is developmental?  Hockey parents are crazy to expect equal playing time.  Playing time for other high school sports is not equal.   If you want to play you better be able to contribute.

We are talking JV hockey Not Varsity. JV should be developmental.

[rkowallis]

This is a great thread initiated by a great question.  I will offer a few opinions as I coach JV at McDowell and have been a coach for 20 some years.

First let me offer that JV hockey is absolutely developmental. You need to have effort for JV but you need to have effort AND execution for varsity. 

Practices AND games are treated much differently than varsity because they are not the same.

JV practices look like:

50% skill development (power skating, simple passing, stickhandling, shooting)

25% systems drills (breakouts, regroups, angling, cycling, etc)

25% competition drills (1v1s, 2v1s, net front battles, simple puck races, etc)

There is A LOT of teaching that goes into each of those components…

Skill development: we are trying to make them faster, stronger skaters, every year we have to teach kids how to pass and catch passes on their backhand, we have to get their shots quicker and stronger, stickhandle with their heads up…

Systems drills: they are broken down into much smaller components than varsity. We have to teach them how to use the dots, how to support the puck, how to create space for themselves, do they need to use a direct pass, area pass, indirect pass? We deal with a lot of the why you’re doing what you’re doing.  Hockey is such a fluid game that the why is VERY important.

Competition drills: we have to teach proper lanes to the puck, puck protection, self-protection, leverage, etc

JV coaches obviously teach their programs systems but most of that is done on the board in the locker room or thru video review AND in the way we structure the practice drills. Many of the drills varsity teams run are worthless to JV teams because there would be too many breakdowns in skill and execution.

Generally speaking the season is broken into 1/3s. In the first third, your practices are geared toward the skill level of the bottom third of your players, the middle to your average player and then the last third pushes even your most skilled players. Its 50/25/25 all season long though. By February, 75% of varsity practice is breakouts and special teams.  JV teams may work on special teams but its more the principles rather than structure (creating 2v1s with the advantage and eliminating them on the kill)

The goal is to have your players be able to step into varsity as upperclassmen as complete players.  Players that have effort and execution inside whatever drill or system they want to run.

As far as games, I will repeat that only effort is required at JV.  If you compete your hardest, you have EARNED the ice time.
Now the caveat here is that a big part of coaching is that you try to put kids in positions to succeed so everything is not exactly equal. JV coaches dont match lines like varsity teams. If a varsity coach has an off zone draw and he sees the other teams third D pair out, that coach is probably putting out his top line. At JV, the opposite is true much of the time. JV coaches will put out their third line to give them the opportunity to get some off zone pressure against the other teams weaker players. But conversely, the third line MAY get a shorter shift if there is a dzone draw and the other team has their top line on the ice.

I know this was a long response but I wanted to offer insights as to how JV teams are run. As for McDowell, we are down to about 10 healthy players because we keep playing JV teams loaded with 04s and 05s for some reason. I will save my complaints about PIHL JV team placement for another day, however.

[Saucey]

... we keep playing JV teams loaded with 04s and 05s for some reason. I will save my complaints about PIHL

I think a lot less kids came out for programs. COVID? My kids play for a big program where they wouldn't keep seniors/juniors normally, but the kids weren't there.

That was nice of you to share. I think high school hockey presents a unique challenge in that you can have a wide degree of disparity in age and talent on one team, particularly a small program. Some players are ready for system work and others really still need the basics.