The Viper's Demise

[forbin]

10 minutes ago, RegDunlop7 said:

Never mind, there are some Viper Stars teams at the PAHL A level. What's the difference between Viper Stars and Vipers then?

Apparently just a different logo and more money?.... which is a shame. 

[hockeyisgreat]

1 hour ago, forbin said:

Apparently just a different logo and more money?.... which is a shame. 

I would assume that they are trying to attract AA players to the Viper Stars.  The question becomes what do they do when the talent they get isn't good enough for AA!  Does anyone know if they charge more for PAHL A teams that played under Viper Stars? It all does seem a little crazy.  Clonbur why did so many kids leave?  Coaching? Icetime? 

[RJUSHL]

3 hours ago, bender05 said:

yes last year 09s were a major white or gold-not even a major black 

Are you talking about the season that just ended? 2021-2022? Viper Stars 09 team was PAHL AA.

Edited March 31, 2022 by RJUSHL

[nemesis8679]

2 hours ago, RegDunlop7 said:

Never mind, there are some Viper Stars teams at the PAHL A level. What's the difference between Viper Stars and Vipers then?

A few hundred bucks, it's sounds like. 

[bender05]

1 hour ago, RJUSHL said:

Are you talking about the season that just ended? 2021-2022? Viper Stars 09 team was PAHL AA.

Last year. 2020-2021 08 viper stars Aa and went 0-19-1 and 09s won 4 games in A major gold. not even a major black for AA team paying a few thousand bucks for a major gold 

[RJUSHL]

7 minutes ago, bender05 said:

Last year. 2020-2021 08 viper stars Aa and went 0-19-1 and 09s won 4 games in A major gold. not even a major black for AA team paying a few thousand bucks for a major gold 

That's going back in time quite a bit and certainly less relevant than this past season.

The 08 Viper Stars team went 17-1-2 in 14U AA Minor this past season.

The 09 Viper Stars went 4-12-4 in 12U AA this past season.

Most 12U AA teams play Major Black or Major Gold in their minor year. Nothing wrong with that. Foxes 09 played Minor Gold as well and then jumped up to AA in their major year.

I have zero clue about internal workings at Viper Stars, but they have some decent AA teams.

Edited March 31, 2022 by RJUSHL

[fafa fohi]

06 Viper Stars expected to be placed in PAHL AA U16 for this past season. They were designated A Major Black based on the placement games. They declined, went independent AA and ended up 13-28 for the season. 
 

Read into this what you will. 

[Saucey]

7 hours ago, forbin said:

I have without a doubt seen Viper Stars teams placed in PAHL A divisions, so just because they are a AA program doesn't mean they will be automatically placed in AA. 

True. The top team at an organization often doesn't get in at AA if they don't belong there 

[AMR24]

13 hours ago, Clonbur said:

If you are on the Board... you should resign.  You are not doing anything to help the organization.  You have years of bad decisions.  We left a few years ago.  I went to a board meeting to address issues and it was a joke.  I heard the same "the grass isn't greener comment" which is you mantra.  It is greener.  Much much greener.  The board does not do what's best for development.  I've witnessed 80 kids on one sheet of ice, board member kids get put on better teams above their skill level, teams being forced to play down because they don't want to go "Stars" and pay more money for the same amount of Ice and instruction, 80 kids in an ADM program 4 years ago and I can only name 8 that are still skating for the Vipers.  You are now on your 4th year of mass exodus.  RESIGN.  You are doing no favors to anyone.  

Sir, you do not know me please leave your shouty cap lock on off. Or maybe you do know me but I am newer to the board. There has been changes and more are to come. You claim that you left years ago but you seem to have all the “inside scoop”. 
 

I know you believe that I’m not doing anyone any favors by staying on the board but I disagree. I joined in 2020. Much didn’t get accomplished in 2020 and 2021 for obvious reasons but things are moving in a positive direction now. Changes are being discussed and implemented. We have some really good individuals involved now that have some great ideas and the desire to get them going.

I’ve been around a long time in ice hockey and dek hockey. This is the 2nd board I’ve been involved in. What I will say is that every organization goes through an ebb and flow over the years; high numbers and low numbers. Happy participants and unhappy participants.

On another comment, you mentioned the vast difference between team options. I agree with you. AA or A minor shouldn’t be the only options. There needs to be more talent pulled or retained into the organization. That’s hard to do when everyone jumps ship the moment things don’t go in the manner as which they believe it should. Nobody wants to ride out the growing pains or are trophy chasing. Our rink is in New Ken and not very accessible so our numbers are just small to begin with.

Personally, you seem to have an issue with specific boards members. I’m sorry your experience with the Vipers was not great but I don’t see how going onto a forum, starting this thread is going to make that experience any better a few years out. Again, I’m willing to have an adult conversation with you in regards to what made your experience so negative. But I will need more specifics than over generalizations. Please feel free to message me directly.

 

[JAR48]

5 hours ago, nemesis8679 said:

A few hundred bucks, it's sounds like. 

The difference is the practice time, non player coaches, skilled instructors, films, independent games

[AMR24]

2 hours ago, fafa fohi said:

06 Viper Stars expected to be placed in PAHL AA U16 for this past season. They were designated A Major Black based on the placement games. They declined, went independent AA and ended up 13-28 for the season. 
 

Read into this what you will. 

That was a decision made by the parents and coaches. Their record may not look great but practically every game was competitive. The team seemed to struggle with “finishing”. Something they couldn’t overcome. Plus they were plagued with injuries all season. You can look at records all you want but to really see growth from beginning of the year to the end, you gotta look at the nitty gritty stats. That’s the true tell.

[AMR24]

13 hours ago, Clonbur said:

I've never hid.  I've said my piece to the board members when we went there.  The Vipers even have board members leaving for other organizations this year.  You would think that would wake up some of them.  It is run by a few that now collect a stipend that they refuse to relinquish.  They aren't doing it for the kids.  I look forward to another organization moving into PICE. 

Again with the “inside scoop”. You know nothing about stipends and refusing to give it up. We have a board member who is a paid coach. He gave up his whole coaching stipend this past season to offset the ice cost increase that was thrown onto us from Black Bear after tryouts and financial papers from parents were signed. That’s who is on the board now. People who are willing to forgo something that they earn just so parents wouldn’t have to pay more after committing to a certain amount. Again, I’m sorry your experience was negative but things are changing. Maybe it’s time to let it go and move on. You said you are on the greener side, why not just enjoy it and let go of the past.

[HereWithPopcorn]

7 hours ago, AMR24 said:

That was a decision made by the parents and coaches. Their record may not look great but practically every game was competitive. The team seemed to struggle with “finishing”. Something they couldn’t overcome. Plus they were plagued with injuries all season. You can look at records all you want but to really see growth from beginning of the year to the end, you gotta look at the nitty gritty stats. That’s the true tell.

The true tell is that this team finished below every A+ Black team with the exception of 1 in the MyHockeyRankings.  And that was with playing low level teams all year during the season with their "independent" schedule.

[AMR24]

12 minutes ago, HereWithPopcorn said:

The true tell is that this team finished below every A+ Black team with the exception of 1 in the MyHockeyRankings.  And that was with playing low level teams all year during the season with their "independent" schedule.

That is a good point.  I’m not arguing whether they were AA or not. My point was that there was development throughout the year. They moved up MyHockey rankings as the season went on. It may not have been much or put them in the top 20 but it was consistent. 

[hockeyisgreat]

1 hour ago, AMR24 said:

That is a good point.  I’m not arguing whether they were AA or not. My point was that there was development throughout the year. They moved up MyHockey rankings as the season went on. It may not have been much or put them in the top 20 but it was consistent. 

Here you have a board member that knows specific facts about one team in the organization and seems to know about them all.  How can anyone dispute the fact that NHAHA isn't trying to do what's best for the kids. At the end of the day records do not matter as much as growth of the players and ultimately the team.  Seems to me that parents who complain more often than not didn't get their kid placed on the team they wanted.  I think we should ask some kids from that 06 team if they would do anything different. I have no idea but sometimes adversity makes you stronger and wanting a challenge shows the dedication of the kids.  Are people who complain about there ranking more concerned about wins and losses? Maybe they would have liked them to play A major gold and win the championship.  Would that have validated the team?

[Clonbur]

30 minutes ago, hockeyisgreat said:

Here you have a board member that knows specific facts about one team in the organization and seems to know about them all.  How can anyone dispute the fact that NHAHA isn't trying to do what's best for the kids. At the end of the day records do not matter as much as growth of the players and ultimately the team.  Seems to me that parents who complain more often than not didn't get their kid placed on the team they wanted.  I think we should ask some kids from that 06 team if they would do anything different. I have no idea but sometimes adversity makes you stronger and wanting a challenge shows the dedication of the kids.  Are people who complain about there ranking more concerned about wins and losses? Maybe they would have liked them to play A major gold and win the championship.  Would that have validated the team?

You must be drinking the Viper cool aide.  People are not leaving because of not making teams or the coaches or the ice time (maybe a small percent but that's everywhere).  They are leaving from the continued (4 years and counting) poor decisions from the board.  The board should review who started in their program and who has moved on.  This kind of mass movement does not happen at other locations.  The Board will use lines like "grass is not greener" and "maybe you should volunteer more"....  these lines are used on previous head coaches.  They also have Board Members who are leaving each year.  Count the number of coaches that have left.  You can have good intentions and be on 100 boards but data doesn't lie.  They need new leadership and soon.  Black Bear is going to pull that rug from underneath them.  I know it's hard to swallow for those who still think they are "doing their best".  

[hockeyisgreat]

Wow, time to move away from this thread. I have no dog in this fight and have never tasted the Viper cool aide but it sounds good from what ARM24 had to say.  You have made a lot of allegations with no facts.  "poor decisions from the board" examples? You seem to know. Tell us how many coaches have left.  Why didn't you become a coach?  Enough, hard to argue when you present no facts.  I'm done and won't respond to what ever you say because I don't like going around in circles.

[AMR24]

7 minutes ago, Clonbur said:

You must be drinking the Viper cool aide.  People are not leaving because of not making teams or the coaches or the ice time (maybe a small percent but that's everywhere).  They are leaving from the continued (4 years and counting) poor decisions from the board.  The board should review who started in their program and who has moved on.  This kind of mass movement does not happen at other locations.  The Board will use lines like "grass is not greener" and "maybe you should volunteer more"....  these lines are used on previous head coaches.  They also have Board Members who are leaving each year.  Count the number of coaches that have left.  You can have good intentions and be on 100 boards but data doesn't lie.  They need new leadership and soon.  Black Bear is going to pull that rug from underneath them.  I know it's hard to swallow for those who still think they are "doing their best".  

But the Viper Kool-Aide is the best kind ? 

In all seriousness, though, no one is disputing the fact that there needs to be some changes within the organization. Every organization has times when changes need to be made. Even those on “the much greener side”. And, believe it or not, we do have a good pulse on what’s going on within the organization and why people are leaving. And it is being addressed. Just because there’s not a huge town hall announcing it doesn’t mean it’s not being talked about. And, yes, if you are unhappy, a common response is “then volunteer” because the more volunteers you have with voices, the more it will be heard. Is that no different than telling someone to go vote if they don’t like how the government is run?

You have such a dislike for the organization that you wish it to fail so no matter what I type, it’s not going to make a difference to you. And your dislike is so deep that you wish for Black Bear to pull the rug out. That’s your choice. But there are good, honest, hard-working people on the board. You just don’t want to see it because of the 3 or 4 you dislike. Again, you’ve left. You’ve moved on. I’m still unsure as to why this board bothers you still many years later?

[Saucey]

26 minutes ago, Clonbur said:

 This kind of mass movement does not happen at other locations.  

I beg to differ. It only takes one charismatic dad to convince entire teams that what the organization did was wrong and another organization in need of check books. That's how the Icemen fill their rosters every year. You know, because they don't have a program that develops from the mites on.

[AMR24]

3 minutes ago, Saucey said:

I beg to differ. It only takes one charismatic dad to convince entire teams that what the organization did was wrong and another organization in need of check books. That's how the Icemen fill their rosters every year. You know, because they don't have a program that develops from the mites on.

????????
 

I have seen this EXACT thing happen at ice and dek. 1 or 2 upset parents can move mountains when they want. And it ebbs and flows in EVERY organization within different times. It’s the nature of the beast.

[bender05]

9 minutes ago, Saucey said:

I beg to differ. It only takes one charismatic dad to convince entire teams that what the organization did was wrong and another organization in need of check books. That's how the Icemen fill their rosters every year. You know, because they don't have a program that develops from the mites on.

true. Icemen/yetis said they are having 09 aa/aaa team and their team won 2 games in 12UAA 

[RegDunlop7]

11 hours ago, JAR48 said:

The difference is the practice time, non player coaches, skilled instructors, films, independent games

My original understanding was that the Viper Stars are NHAHA's AA teams (Independent and/or PAHL) and Vipers are NHAHA's PAHL A/B teams. However, several Viper Stars teams have played at the A level over the past few seasons. So what's the purpose of having separate "Viper Stars" and "Vipers" designations while potentially playing at the same level? @AMR24 can you provide some insight?

Edited April 1, 2022 by RegDunlop7

[dazedandconfused]

1 hour ago, RegDunlop7 said:

So what's the purpose of having separate "Viper Stars" and "Vipers" designations while potentially playing at the same level?

Viper Stars teams come with the Posey tax.

Edited April 1, 2022 by dazedandconfused

[twoboys]

1 hour ago, RegDunlop7 said:

My original understanding was that the Viper Stars are NHAHA's AA teams (Independent and/or PAHL) and Vipers are NHAHA's PAHL A/B teams. However, several Viper Stars teams have played at the A level over the past few seasons. So what's the purpose of having separate "Viper Stars" and "Vipers" designations while potentially playing at the same level? @AMR24 can you provide some insight?

They get additional ice time, independent games, tournaments and non-parent coaches.  NHAHA, like the Renegades, the Artic Foxes and other teams charge more for birth year teams.  You get more but you gotta pay more.  Not everyone wants to pay more.  And it requires more time.  This isn't for everyone.

[Pucks11]

1 hour ago, dazedandconfused said:

Viper Stars teams come with the Posey tax.

And he will sleep with your wife for free???

Plus he will tell you that your kid is the best and you should get an agent/advisor. 

Also make sure you do all of those extra skating classes with him to get you where you need to be playing AA at a single A level. 

Edited April 1, 2022 by Pucks11