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The Viper's Demise


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2 hours ago, RegDunlop7 said:

My original understanding was that the Viper Stars are NHAHA's AA teams (Independent and/or PAHL) and Vipers are NHAHA's PAHL A/B teams. However, several Viper Stars teams have played at the A level over the past few seasons. So what's the purpose of having separate "Viper Stars" and "Vipers" designations while potentially playing at the same level? @AMR24 can you provide some insight?

Viper Stars are set up to be AA teams. However, they don’t always place AA in PAHL…especially if it’s a newer, younger group. They may not play AA in PAHL but when they go to tournaments, they will play in the AA bracket if warranted. What sets them apart from Vipers are several things: non parent/paid HC, more ice time, more scheduled games, access to gym/work out facility  and tournaments are included in the season fees. Both my boys played VS; 1 loved it and 1 tolerated it. Lol. If you want your child to be on the ice more and go to out of state tournaments, Viper Stars provide that. Vipers is for the A/B kiddos and families who want to just play PAHL and maybe 1 or 2 tournaments a season. 

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30 minutes ago, hockeyisgreat said:

Wow, between this and the PT thread it is Coach character assault day.  Don't personally know any of them but they sure must have pissed some people off! Maybe we should go back to talking about how the Pens Elite take your money and don't deliver your kid to the NHL.

Great Assessment Sir ! 

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11 minutes ago, AMR24 said:

They may not play AA in PAHL but when they go to tournaments, they will play in the AA bracket if warranted.

If PAHL deems you to not be qualified for AA, then there's a 99.75% likelihood that you should not be entering AA tournaments.

Case in point, the 16U team. Not AA. Not in PAHL's evaluation, not as far as the results against local teams provide and certainly not by what MHR says.

You can call yourself whatever you want and this is in no sense unique to this team or organization but regardless of what you call yourself, the skill level and quality of team play of the players make that determination.

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12 hours ago, Clonbur said:

You must be drinking the Viper cool aide.  People are not leaving because of not making teams or the coaches or the ice time (maybe a small percent but that's everywhere).  They are leaving from the continued (4 years and counting) poor decisions from the board.  The board should review who started in their program and who has moved on.  This kind of mass movement does not happen at other locations.  The Board will use lines like "grass is not greener" and "maybe you should volunteer more"....  these lines are used on previous head coaches.  They also have Board Members who are leaving each year.  Count the number of coaches that have left.  You can have good intentions and be on 100 boards but data doesn't lie.  They need new leadership and soon.  Black Bear is going to pull that rug from underneath them.  I know it's hard to swallow for those who still think they are "doing their best".  

I've been involved in hockey a long time at many different levels and positions and from what I have seen this happens at all organizations. I know of a few that do stay long term in one organization, but on average a player will play on 3 different organizations by the time he moves out of the armature ranks. Most of the reasons are development and moving to an organization that offers a higher level. For example a kid may start at his local rink for ADM, say Vipers then move to renegades for squirt or peewee cause they typically have a AA team, then onto a AAA team like the vengeance or the other options. I will say this the birth year teams have the most movement, typically when you have a group of people together like everyone brags about the benefits of being part of a BY team, they tend to pick each other apart and get on each others nerves and end up parting ways, and you can have entire teams or groups move if they don't get their way or a certain coach. 05 Vengeance was Preds, 06 Shaha was south pointe, 07 Huskies was Butler Valley, 08 or 09 Lebo soon to Shaha? I'm sure we can make a long list.

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1 hour ago, aaaahockey said:

The 08 Lebo AAA team is moving to SHAHA. 

And what is the point to all this?  The old org won't let them do what they want?  More ice time available? In the end why should we care?  Does it dilute the level of play in Western Pa or give more options to kids?  Seems there are only so many AAA/AA kids anyway so who cares what the rest of the teams call themselves?  There will always be top teams and bottom teams. Most kids will play in the middle what ever you want to call it.

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10 hours ago, hockeyisgreat said:

And what is the point to all this?  The old org won't let them do what they want?  More ice time available? In the end why should we care?  Does it dilute the level of play in Western Pa or give more options to kids?  Seems there are only so many AAA/AA kids anyway so who cares what the rest of the teams call themselves?  There will always be top teams and bottom teams. Most kids will play in the middle what ever you want to call it.

I think the AAA hornets team have been AAA for a few years.  I believe they have been one of the few orgs who have had pretty good success being independent.  I think they went to SHAHA because of ice time being much better.  Hornets have been shrinking and bleeding players/teams for several years now due to ice time.  

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2 hours ago, aaaahockey said:

I think the AAA hornets team have been AAA for a few years.  I believe they have been one of the few orgs who have had pretty good success being independent.  I think they went to SHAHA because of ice time being much better.  Hornets have been shrinking and bleeding players/teams for several years now due to ice time.  

1 year they have been AAA. The parents I spoke with from that team said ice time and a gym are the factors. It will be the same coaches and with SHAHA not having an 08 team it should be a smooth move.

If you look at SHAHA's website it looks like they had 4 teams above Mites last season and from the way they advertised they are trying to get it up to 12 teams this season. That might defeat the purpose of going there because of ice time. 

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6 hours ago, Pucks11 said:

 

If you look at SHAHA's website it looks like they had 4 teams above Mites last season and from the way they advertised they are trying to get it up to 12 teams this season. That might defeat the purpose of going there because of ice time. 

SHAHA had a lot more than 4 teams last year. My hockey rankings lists 15 teams above mites.   A few of the top AA teams created their own sub-websites and those were the ones listed.  The ice advantage they have comes from the fact SHAHA and Bethel HS basically rent all of the ice. There isn't figure skating, open skates, learn to skate, etc. on a regular schedule there during the season. They also don't cram teams on a tiny studio ice like Lebo does.  I think the down side is it sounds like several of their teams are starting to get in the business of chasing As and I guess we will see how that works out.  Their 09 team was strong in PAHL but tied several games and I'm still not sure what possessed them to want to go independent.  The older AAA teams have had some mixed levels of success. 

The Lebo 08 team (becoming SHAHA) was 66th in the country last year.  That to me seems borderline going independent but as everyone else points out in here where are they going to find competition if all these other 08 teams are going independent in the area? 

Edited by aaaahockey
Changed squirt to mite
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2 minutes ago, Clonbur said:

You must not be a top 4 board member.  Sad you had to hear about it on a forum.  Ask your Safe Sports member.  Typical as to how other board members are informed.  Decisions are only made from the top.  Good Luck.

Again, you are still misinformed. But it honestly is not going to matter what I say. And the SafeSport coordinator is a dear friend of mine, so, yes, I shall ask her. I shall ask the VP too since I’m extremely close to them as well.
You have a large ax to grind and you are going to manipulate any piece of information to fit your agenda. If anyone on here has questions regarding these allegations, please feel free to private message me. I am no longer going to feed his fodder for him to manipulate it.

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@Clonbur We get it - you have an axe to grind with the board and I think at this point, you have grinded that axe down to a nub.  Kinda like Andy Dufrain did with that rock hammer of his when tunneling out of Shawshank prison.

I think it is time to let it go and move on - this is getting really old.

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1 hour ago, fafa fohi said:

@Clonbur We get it - you have an axe to grind with the board and I think at this point, you have grinded that axe down to a nub.  Kinda like Andy Dufrain did with that rock hammer of his when tunneling out of Shawshank prison.

I think it is time to let it go and move on - this is getting really old.

That's the way to step up, @fafa fohi. Love the Shawshank reference!

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This thread is now locked. 

We have now set a world record for number of threads locked in a year, and we're only in April.

Way too much mud being slung here that is not verifiable by the general public.  It's one thing to have an opinion and another to go to the level where @Clonbur has gone.

@Clonbur you have been publicly warned and I am DONE with the posts on the Vipers organization.  We understand you don't like them.  Leave it at that.  

I have NO PROBLEM with anyone who doesn't like an organization to talk about it, but it needs to be diplomatic and not like this thread has gone.  I deleted around 20+ posts here because it was just totally going off the tracks (another record for me).

Like I have said before, it is NOT my full time job policing these threads.  I am thankful @forbin helps out here, but we cannot verify the accuracy of every thread.  So give us moderators a break here.

PB

 

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