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Vipers revisted


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4 hours ago, surecat069 said:

Mon valley and rostraver is a done deal. Already appointed a director of hockey ops and organization has been signed over, just not officially announced. there was not much of a choice for Mon valley , as the deal was sign with blackbear exclusively or find another rink. What choice was did they actually have? In this case it probably will be better for a dying organization.  

Wonder what their season fees will go up to now. Hopefully not anything crazy as they always promoted themselves as the cheapest in town. 

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1 hour ago, hockeyisgreat said:

I wonder if Clonbur will be happy now that the Vipers will have to find a new home or cease to exist?

It's not about me.  It's about the kids and the benefits of playing the great sport of Hockey.  If the Vipers made decisions in the best interest of Hockey and the Kids, they wouldn't be in this position.  A landlord doesn't evict good tenants.  

Edited by Clonbur
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5 minutes ago, Clonbur said:

It's not about me.  It's about the kids and the benefits of playing the great sport of Hockey.  If the Vipers made decisions in the best interest of Hockey and the Kids, they wouldn't be in this position.  I landlord doesn't evict good tenants.  

So much wrong w this statement…but I digress…

I’m coming to find that this is Black Bear’s MO. It’s not about being a good tenant.  It’s about taking over and monopolizing the game. Look on Black Bears social media. Many organizations have been forcefully taken over by them. And, again, they never speak of growing the sport. It’s about growing their kingdom. That’s not what’s best for youth hockey on the broad scale. 
 

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2 hours ago, sadday4hockey said:

You almost appear to have a quietly vested interest in this AHF takeover.

Competition is good, but monopolies are not.

Just the way the PPE arrival made the sport far more cut throat and created crazier parents so too will this at the Tier 2 level.

 

Zero vested interest in AHF taking over. In fact, my gut says it will be a bad thing for hockey in this region. I just read basically the entire AHF website last year when they had all sorts of drama with the DVHL and other leagues out east. And I specifically remember one of their selling points was an unbalanced schedule that has some sort of formula to minimize driving distances. But even with an unbalanced schedule, it's going to be way more driving that we currently have in PAHL, that is until they completely push PAHL out.

Edited by RJUSHL
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What are the "negotiations" like? It sounds like... 

Black Bear: Give us your non-profit youth org- which you, as a non-profit will get nothing in return for. 

Youth hockey org: Well, that doesn't sound like a good thing to us... 

Black Bear: Okay, we won't sell you ice time at any of our arenas, so you either find another rink with ice available (good luck), or sign ownership over to us. 

Youth hockey org: (picks up pen and sighs) Okay, where do we sign? 

 

Volunteer parents on a hockey board don't stand a chance negotiating anything with a maximize-profit-at-all-costs corporate board of directors. Unless some of the parents are attorneys or MBA's. These people you're "negotiating" against know how to this, and have done many times. They're experts in it. 

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1 hour ago, nemesis8679 said:

What are the "negotiations" like? It sounds like... 

Black Bear: Give us your non-profit youth org- which you, as a non-profit will get nothing in return for. 

Youth hockey org: Well, that doesn't sound like a good thing to us... 

Black Bear: Okay, we won't sell you ice time at any of our arenas, so you either find another rink with ice available (good luck), or sign ownership over to us. 

Youth hockey org: (picks up pen and sighs) Okay, where do we sign? 

 

Volunteer parents on a hockey board don't stand a chance negotiating anything with a maximize-profit-at-all-costs corporate board of directors. Unless some of the parents are attorneys or MBA's. These people you're "negotiating" against know how to this, and have done many times. They're experts in it. 

I feel like you were there…lol.

They did allow us to come back with a counter proposal. I see now it was a ploy to shore up what they were working on with the Huskies….once that was secure, they cut 2/3rds of NHAHA loose.

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8 hours ago, AMR24 said:

I feel like you were there…lol.

They did allow us to come back with a counter proposal. I see now it was a ploy to shore up what they were working on with the Huskies….once that was secure, they cut 2/3rds of NHAHA loose.

But what would a real counter proposal look like? One that they'd take seriously? Sounds like their mind was made up, a "counter proposal" being a symbolic courtesy so they could frame this as a "negotiation" of some sort, where none ever really existed. You're using their building/ice. They want your org- where your kids play, where there's probably some memories/feelings for the org, and where if you leave they can still sell those slots to someone. Sounds like you had nothing to negotiate, and they knew it. Because it's the same situation everywhere, and they have the upper hand every time. 

 

I wonder how long it'll take before logos and names are changed as well. Maybe a season or two. 

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5 hours ago, nemesis8679 said:

But what would a real counter proposal look like? One that they'd take seriously? Sounds like their mind was made up, a "counter proposal" being a symbolic courtesy so they could frame this as a "negotiation" of some sort, where none ever really existed. You're using their building/ice. They want your org- where your kids play, where there's probably some memories/feelings for the org, and where if you leave they can still sell those slots to someone. Sounds like you had nothing to negotiate, and they knew it. Because it's the same situation everywhere, and they have the upper hand every time. 

 

I wonder how long it'll take before logos and names are changed as well. Maybe a season or two. 

Sounds to me like Vipers will be gone after this year unless they decide to move to some other rink!  But where?  Alpha seems to be pretty full.  When you look close at it the only real loser is NHAHA.  The kids will still have a place to play with the Huskies.  Only real question is how much the cost to play will go up?

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the main issue is fundraising, if a non profit concedes its charter then the team can no longer fundraise.  black bear takes over and you no longer can fundraise.. only option is pay out or don't play.. this was one of the main issues with allowing them to take over.  

I can't see that PIA will survive with the huskies only, and no fundraising.

looking on black bear social media, i can't find a positive comment about them.  everyone complaining they ruined the program and rinks falling apart.. why buy a new rink when our rink needs this that ect.. so i guess time will tell how this all plays out..  

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1 hour ago, rock said:

the main issue is fundraising, if a non profit concedes its charter then the team can no longer fundraise.

Not sure if this is how they are going to set it up, but Black Bear can still control an organization and have it registered as a non-profit at the same time. That wouldn't change anything with fundraising.

It's true that a non-profit is not "owned" by anyone or any company. They are governed by a board of directors. The board of directors could be employees of Black Bear, but that doesn't mean Black Bear owns the non-profit. My guess is that this is what Black Bear does. It's common control but not ownership.

Edited by RJUSHL
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25 minutes ago, RJUSHL said:

Not sure if this is how they are going to set it up, but Black Bear can still control an organization and have it registered as a non-profit at the same time. That wouldn't change anything with fundraising.

It's true that a non-profit is not "owned" by anyone or any company. They are governed by a board of directors. The board of directors could be employees of Black Bear, but that doesn't mean Black Bear owns the non-profit. My guess is that this is what Black Bear does. It's common control but not ownership.

We were told if we signed over, NHAHA would be for profit. They had no desire to keep the non profit status. I’m not entirely sure if that’s their line with the Huskies or Mon Valley but my guess is probably.

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3 hours ago, AMR24 said:

We were told if we signed over, NHAHA would be for profit. They had no desire to keep the non profit status. I’m not entirely sure if that’s their line with the Huskies or Mon Valley but my guess is probably.

Ok. Thanks for the clarification. 

But I still don't think it impacts kids doing fundraising campaigns. Sure, donations are not tax deductible, but that's not what Rock was referencing I don't think.

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So how does this work?  No annual elections?   Same duo just appoints themselves in charge and nobody can unseat them.  I’d be reaching out to the IRS in regards to compliance of being a non profit.  
 

Ryan Patrick is a very unimpressive individual in that position.  Look beyond the last name.  
 

what is it with titles?   GM of a kids hockey program.  SMH. 

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On 12/30/2022 at 11:57 AM, RJUSHL said:

t's true that a non-profit is not "owned" by anyone or any company. They are governed by a board of directors. The board of directors could be employees of Black Bear, but that doesn't mean Black Bear owns the non-profit. My guess is that this is what Black Bear does. It's common control but not ownership.

Sort of like the Giant Entity named UPMC being a "non-profit" and paying their hospital workers a pittance so they can make billions?

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15 hours ago, HockeyFan6687 said:

So how does this work?  No annual elections?   Same duo just appoints themselves in charge and nobody can unseat them.  I’d be reaching out to the IRS in regards to compliance of being a non profit.  
 

Ryan Patrick is a very unimpressive individual in that position.  Look beyond the last name.  
 

what is it with titles?   GM of a kids hockey program.  SMH. 

There would be no elections/re-appointment because these are paid positions, not board positions. They’d only change if BlackBear fired them or moved someone else into their position. They want full control and will not leave anything up to chance.

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  • 1 month later...

supposedly esmark is taking over the viper stars teams fielding AA under esmark and staying at PIA for the next few years, and vipers will be going to split ice at harmer and shady side academy. that's the last rumor i heard.  take it for what its with, a rumor. nothing concrete from my understanding.

 

 

 

 

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11 minutes ago, rock said:

supposedly esmark is taking over the viper stars teams fielding AA under esmark and staying at PIA for the next few years, and vipers will be going to split ice at harmer and shady side academy. that's the last rumor i heard.  take it for what its with, a rumor. nothing concrete from my understanding.

 

 

 

 

I find this hard to believe. Alpha has to be at full or near full capacity. If Esmark retains the AA teams at New Ken, that means this would affect strictly the A/B teams. Further travel, more money (ice cost) for the lower divisions that just want to play hockey? If those parents were smart they would see this as really dumb and just change the logo on their jersey to the dog.

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On 2/2/2023 at 9:35 AM, LGP13 said:

I find this hard to believe. Alpha has to be at full or near full capacity. If Esmark retains the AA teams at New Ken, that means this would affect strictly the A/B teams. Further travel, more money (ice cost) for the lower divisions that just want to play hockey? If those parents were smart they would see this as really dumb and just change the logo on their jersey to the dog.

Yes, Vipers will have ice at Alpha/Shadyside side. Vipers will be having tryouts.  We are working on dates and budgets now. The Vipers program will not be changing, just relocating.

Yes, the plan is for Esmark to “expand” to AA teams, essentially absorbing the Viper Stars teams. Black Bear has said REPEATEDLY that they’d “support Esmark in any capacity” so the hope/plan is they extend whatever ice time is needed in order for this to occur.

We are doing our best to make the best out of a very crappy situation. 

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AMR, I feel for you, but I have to agree with LGP.  We have friends with kids at the Aviators, they are already at Alpha, and their kids only get one 50 minute practice a week (half sheet at that!).

So if a team with (I assume) a lease there can't get extra ice time because there isn't any to be had, how can the Vipers?  Did the Vipers sign a lease?  If so, whose ice is being taken?

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On 2/2/2023 at 9:19 AM, rock said:

supposedly esmark is taking over the viper stars teams fielding AA under esmark and staying at PIA for the next few years, and vipers will be going to split ice at harmer and shady side academy. that's the last rumor i heard.  take it for what its with, a rumor. nothing concrete from my understanding.

 

 

 

 

This makes ZERO sense on multiple levels.

First of all, the Vipers(NHAHA) have the roster software and are authorized to create rosters for Esmark and Viper Stars as well. Why would they still do this when those teams provide them with nothing but the opportunity for headaches and problems? Because when you roster a team with your software, you as the rostering entity are now responsible for any issues that arise all season long.

Second, why on earth would the Huskies(Black Bear) who have just hired two full time paid persons to run the organization allow for that type of competitive organization reside in the same building. Makes zero sense and the Viper Star parents who are buying this kool-aid from the Esmark hierarchy should probably due some extra vetting and due diligence.

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If I understand correctly (and I may not) there are specific charters out there for PAHL teams?   Are the huskies one?  (No clue) are they and/or the new "viper"stars AA teams going independent?  Could be a big impact on PAHL here but curious if anyone can clear that up for me. 

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