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Vipers revisted


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27 minutes ago, forbin said:

Are they playing out if alpha all year?! How many teams is that now at alpha holy crap.

That's my question too, right now Renegades, Aviators and slew if school teams along with the ATC middle school league. I guess if the ice is always full Black Bear stays away ?

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SCIR, Vengeance, Aviators, Vipers/Stars, Steel City Selects, Young Foxes, Fox Chapel, Deer Lakes, Shaler, Central Catholic, Duquesne, and Pitt  plus learn to play, figure skating and public skate all ion 3 sheets of ice. I do not pity the rink scheduler and the organization schedulers that’s for sure.

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I don't know how they do it either and also give props to the rink scheduler, but I also believe once things are setup for the season and you fit everyone into respective slots, it probably runs itself.  It is three sheets of ice and believe they also have access to Shady Side Academy and believe some teams or practices are run out of there.  So it is perhaps more like 3.5 sheets.  

Figure skaters take afternoon ice that the teams don't really use.  Same with public skate on Friday nights.  College teams take the place of men's leagues late night slots.  Young Foxes are probably only 2 slots a week.  Fox Chapel, Deer Lakes, Shaler are all smaller schools I believe with just 3 teams (MS, JV, Varsity).  It looks like a lot, but if you break it down to actual number of teams and ice slots per team, it is probably comparable ice utilization on an individual sheet of ice basis.    

 

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10 hours ago, forbin said:

SCIR, Vengeance, Aviators, Vipers/Stars, Steel City Selects, Young Foxes, Fox Chapel, Deer Lakes, Shaler, Central Catholic, Duquesne, and Pitt  plus learn to play, figure skating and public skate all ion 3 sheets of ice. I do not pity the rink scheduler and the organization schedulers that’s for sure.

I don't believe they have a contract in place yet for ice at Alpha. This flyer is just for tryouts which they secured ice to perform at Alpha. I feel for the Vipers and their situation, but if they don't have a "home" yet and are holding tryouts somewhere that might not be where they play out of, that's pretty misleading and unscrupulous. They should note on their tryout flyer that Alpha is where they are holding tryouts, but practices and home rink might be in Belmont or some other non-BB rink that they haven't secured yet.

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I hate seeing programs disappear and feel for the Vipers, but continuing to hang on without a home is a huge problem imo, like Aviators. Give it up at some point. The kids will find a home. 

I feel that it should be a requirement that your program has an ADM program in order to compete at Nationals or PAHL playoffs. Having all these programs just take the work of what other organizations are doing just isn't right. It might curb the I am going to spring up my own team over here because I am butt hurt you didn't put my super star on team 1 problem, too.

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4 hours ago, Saucey said:

I hate seeing programs disappear and feel for the Vipers, but continuing to hang on without a home is a huge problem imo, like Aviators. Give it up at some point. The kids will find a home. 

I feel that it should be a requirement that your program has an ADM program in order to compete at Nationals or PAHL playoffs. Having all these programs just take the work of what other organizations are doing just isn't right. It might curb the I am going to spring up my own team over here because I am butt hurt you didn't put my super star on team 1 problem, too.

This is to my point on the other thread about how there is the question on the Tier I and Tier II intent to register teams form that asks about your organization being ADM compliant.  I don’t personally believe it is enforced.

I had thought Aviators were going to die when it seemed their older teams aged out, but now they seem to have some strong younger teams and I believe new leadership in place.  I had thought Huskies were going to die as their last team aged out, but the organization obviously found new life under Black Bear.

I also don’t think there needs to be consolidation just for sake of it. I give props to larger organizations spreading talent out and making teams at all levels, but I would also hate to see something like North Pgh fielding 12 Peewee teams and all just playing each other all the time.

The more programs and team there are - and even operating out of same rink - should be a good thing as it should help competitive balance and making sure organizations are doing the right things.

If anything, it should show that there is a lack of ice in the area.  It should give people an incentive to open new rinks and take existing programs and teams with them.  This would perhaps help keep from having Middle School games at 10PM at night on school nights out in middle of nowhere and other problems associated with lack of ice time in the area.

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11 hours ago, nemesis8679 said:

While jumping organizations sometimes is for petty reasons, also sometimes it's 100% warranted. 

Yes sometimes people don't fit on teams or don't like certain coaches and want to try a new association.  But is it a good idea to have 3 different options in the same facility competing for the same kids geographically?

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32 minutes ago, HatTrick said:

Yes sometimes people don't fit on teams or don't like certain coaches and want to try a new association.  But is it a good idea to have 3 different options in the same facility competing for the same kids geographically?

Not sure two of them are much competition with their limited ice time, teams like that mostly just attract the disgruntled players/parents from other organizations. Not sure what they offer, other than an option and new jerseys. 

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26 minutes ago, nemesis8679 said:

Not sure two of them are much competition with their limited ice time, teams like that mostly just attract the disgruntled players/parents from other organizations. Not sure what they offer, other than an option and new jerseys. 

Agreed, I would love to see those two associations put out a cost structure and what you get for the cost.  i.e. how many 50 minute half ice practices do you get a year?

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Probably starting to verge from the topic - perhaps what different programs offer and costs should be a different thread like the tryout times one.  This comes up in discussion every year.  From what I have seen, a lot of programs do advertise what they offer and you typically pay accordingly whether it is for the ice costs for full ice, half-ice or some kind of mix.  Other teams programs have coaching costs, off-ice training costs, etc.  I personally believe it is pretty well explained by most associations.  If it is not or you can't figure it out, you probably shouldn't be pursuing it.

This is again why good to have variety.  Not all families/players are looking for the same thing.  Some want a good experience for cheapest cost possible.  Others want the most/best no matter what the cost is.  Others want to find some kind of value in between.  Again more reason to have more options.  

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On 3/17/2023 at 12:09 PM, pickle said:

Probably starting to verge from the topic - perhaps what different programs offer and costs should be a different thread like the tryout times one.  This comes up in discussion every year.  From what I have seen, a lot of programs do advertise what they offer and you typically pay accordingly whether it is for the ice costs for full ice, half-ice or some kind of mix.  Other teams programs have coaching costs, off-ice training costs, etc.  I personally believe it is pretty well explained by most associations.  If it is not or you can't figure it out, you probably shouldn't be pursuing it.

This is again why good to have variety.  Not all families/players are looking for the same thing.  Some want a good experience for cheapest cost possible.  Others want the most/best no matter what the cost is.  Others want to find some kind of value in between.  Again more reason to have more options.  

I don't think options are bad. We have too many. It results in the dilution of talent and hurts development. And...what you think you want after coming out of a tryout, what a kid needs, etc are often different. We cannot and should not protect our kids from every bad thing that can happen to them. How many times have I seen a family leave in the heat of the moment only to be like...oh, my kid isn't going to the show and maybe that faux AAA team was a not such a great idea....

I mean, we have a lot of coaches on this forum. Coaches are a little better at judging what is a good fit for their kids. Parents around here, without hockey backgrounds, trust no one who may just want to help their kid. They just hear, come play with us, your kid is fab at AA/AAA regardless of whether that is true. And they are gone.

A parent driven market hurts. But I think we may in a few years have a market driven by Black Beat. The other extreme is also not good.

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I know Vipers are holding tryouts at Alpha but does anyone know if they actually have ice there next season? I have heard from a few people at that facility that they will not have enough ice or any ice at Alpha. It would be really sad if players try out for them and then they do not have any practice ice for next season. I hope they are not desperately trying to hang on and setting the players and families up for a complete disaster.

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13 hours ago, Hattrick Swayze said:

I know Vipers are holding tryouts at Alpha but does anyone know if they actually have ice there next season? I have heard from a few people at that facility that they will not have enough ice or any ice at Alpha. It would be really sad if players try out for them and then they do not have any practice ice for next season. I hope they are not desperately trying to hang on and setting the players and families up for a complete disaster.

Don't take this as gospel truth because we know what comes of "I heard," but I was told by a Vipers parent that they will be playing at Shadyside Academy, and that they won't know the details until they see who comes to tryouts and they know how many teams they'll have.  

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I don't take anything on this forum as the gospel truth. Just curious as it has kind of gone silent on here and I was talking the other day with someone who is highly involved at Alpha and they said there is no way they'd have ice there. I just don't want to see a bunch of players without a home if that is the case. Thanks for the feedback.

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31 minutes ago, nemesis8679 said:

The sad thing is I would have my kid try out for Vipers, no problem. It's close, current org really offers no opportunities to move higher.... it could be a great thing to have Vipers as an option. 

But it sounds like it's going to be a damn mess. 

Curious who the current org is that you cannot move higher

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17 hours ago, nemesis8679 said:

The sad thing is I would have my kid try out for Vipers, no problem. It's close, current org really offers no opportunities to move higher.... it could be a great thing to have Vipers as an option. 

But it sounds like it's going to be a damn mess. 

How can the vipers offer a higher level than current organizations in that area?  Are they fielding AAAA teams now?

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