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Is the Esmark 08 coach a clown or is it the whole organization?


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1 hour ago, hockeyisgreat said:

Saucey, You went straight back to the Negativity!  Corsi had some very constructive things to say as well as Mr Freeze!  Never once did I say how do I get my kid noticed!  What I said was how do I get him evaluated by someone who is good and just doesn't want to take my money!  Not one person here has a name of someone so I guess I will just figure it out myself!  He turned down the faux AAA this year and we are going to continue to put our money into lessons. I have tried to listen and take advice from people here who have been in this a lot longer than us.  Please don't respond unless you have something positive to say!

How old is your son ? 

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31 minutes ago, Saucey said:

You are very confusing hence why someone said you are trolling.

It's getting harder to advise people because the hockey landscape is changing very quickly. The level of play is decreasing in PAHL every year as people play these other things. For me, I too turn down the faux AAA option because there is no way that my family needs more. But my kids are older. When they were coming up, playing A major their first year in a level was perfectly fine for their development. But now...that has changed just in the last few years as even A Major and lower go to play independent.

If I had a young child... maybe we wouldn't play at all, quite frankly. I think at the younger levels it is still good hockey and so your choice right now is likely fine. Just keep an eye on his fun level, the crazy level of the parents and whether he gets better. Don't worry about having him evaluated and blah blah. Just those things and you will be fine. 

I am burnt out on the crazy in youth sports. I am tired of even basically good people getting so wound up in it that they lose sight of the kids. So my comments come from negativity because I am tired of experiencing negativity. Tired of the crazy. Try really hard to remember this is just a game and they are just kids.

I should change my handle to letsjustplaypuck.

There is a very well known coach who is younger in our area that told me this, this year - “when I have kids they are not playing hockey. It’s a mess anymore.”

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46 minutes ago, Saucey said:

You are very confusing hence why someone said you are trolling.

It's getting harder to advise people because the hockey landscape is changing very quickly. The level of play is decreasing in PAHL every year as people play these other things. For me, I too turn down the faux AAA option because there is no way that my family needs more. But my kids are older. When they were coming up, playing A major their first year in a level was perfectly fine for their development. But now...that has changed just in the last few years as even A Major and lower go to play independent.

If I had a young child... maybe we wouldn't play at all, quite frankly. I think at the younger levels it is still good hockey and so your choice right now is likely fine. Just keep an eye on his fun level, the crazy level of the parents and whether he gets better. Don't worry about having him evaluated and blah blah. Just those things and you will be fine. 

I am burnt out on the crazy in youth sports. I am tired of even basically good people getting so wound up in it that they lose sight of the kids. So my comments come from negativity because I am tired of experiencing negativity. Tired of the crazy. Try really hard to remember this is just a game and they are just kids.

I should change my handle to letsjustplaypuck.

 

Here's how I manage the insanity now:  Who cares what division or league it is.  It is still the same kids and still the same level of talent.  It just gets moved around and called something different (for whatever reason). 

But, if you pay attention, you can figure out which teams should be at whatever you want to call the levels in your head.  I like classifying them as AAA (with birthyear), AA (typically second year at the age group), and A (typically first year at an age group or athletic kids that are new to hockey).  Everything else is in-house in my mind.  I can usually place a team in my matrix in my mind after watching a period or so. 

Then, when I watch, I can set my expectations accordingly going forward.  No need to worry what they call themselves or how much they are paying.  Walking into the rink with the proper expectation makes it much more enjoyable.

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44 minutes ago, carroll81 said:

 

Here's how I manage the insanity now:  Who cares what division or league it is.  It is still the same kids and still the same level of talent.  It just gets moved around and called something different (for whatever reason). 

But, if you pay attention, you can figure out which teams should be at whatever you want to call the levels in your head.  I like classifying them as AAA (with birthyear), AA (typically second year at the age group), and A (typically first year at an age group or athletic kids that are new to hockey).  Everything else is in-house in my mind.  I can usually place a team in my matrix in my mind after watching a period or so. 

Then, when I watch, I can set my expectations accordingly going forward.  No need to worry what they call themselves or how much they are paying.  Walking into the rink with the proper expectation makes it much more enjoyable.

I can classify, too. The problem is feeling forced into paying more in time and money AND having to spend time with crazy parents for the same level of hockey we were just playing. Because many are not aware like you are that they are playing a certain level. They bought the salespitch. 

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1 minute ago, Saucey said:

I can classify, too. The problem is feeling forced into paying more in time and money AND having to spend time with crazy parents for the same level of hockey we were just playing. Because many are not aware like you are that they are playing a certain level. They bought the salespitch. 

I get it.  Serenity now!

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1 hour ago, Danner27 said:

There is a very well known coach who is younger in our area that told me this, this year - “when I have kids they are not playing hockey. It’s a mess anymore.”

So sad, isn't it? I work with young kids. They need MORE opportunities to move, not less. They can't run for long without getting winded. They don't know basic recess games. They can't organize themselves into their own games. This was prepandemic, now I am sure it will be worse. They don't want to go go toss a football around with their friends because 'they aren't good.' Since when did messing around around in the back yard with friends require talent?

Sports are very much becoming associated with elite athletes only in our kids' minds.

Bleh.

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2 hours ago, Saucey said:

You are very confusing hence why someone said you are trolling.

It's getting harder to advise people because the hockey landscape is changing very quickly. The level of play is decreasing in PAHL every year as people play these other things. For me, I too turn down the faux AAA option because there is no way that my family needs more. But my kids are older. When they were coming up, playing A major their first year in a level was perfectly fine for their development. But now...that has changed just in the last few years as even A Major and lower go to play independent.

If I had a young child... maybe we wouldn't play at all, quite frankly. I think at the younger levels it is still good hockey and so your choice right now is likely fine. Just keep an eye on his fun level, the crazy level of the parents and whether he gets better. Don't worry about having him evaluated and blah blah. Just those things and you will be fine. 

I am burnt out on the crazy in youth sports. I am tired of even basically good people getting so wound up in it that they lose sight of the kids. So my comments come from negativity because I am tired of experiencing negativity. Tired of the crazy. Try really hard to remember this is just a game and they are just kids.

I should change my handle to letsjustplaypuck.

Yes I have been told more than once I am confusing!  From people who know me so you are not alone!  I've been involved with other sports for years and they seem straight forward. You play High School sports. If your good enough you get a scholarship straight to D-1, D-2 or you pay to play in D-3! No Juniors etc.  Anyways first and hopefully last trip through the Hockey maize.  I really do appreciate the advice from people who have lived it!

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My kids have all aged out, but here's the advice I would give:  Play at the highest level that your player is capable of playing and your personal economic situation allows.  If you enjoy traveling on weekends and spending time with the parents, then do it.  If you don't or your personal situation doesn't allow it, then don't do it.  Hockey has changed, and the correct path isn't always a straight line anymore.  Hockey, and ALL youth sports, has become a business and that's not going to change.  If your player has the skill to play at a high level, do it...  if your financial and social situation allows you to do it, do it...  if you and the rest of your family are comfortable with it, do it.  All anyone on here can do is give advice based off of what their experience and knowledge tells them.  If someone doesn't agree, that's fine, but instead of attacking, share the difference of opinion and debate, no reason to get personal or go on the attack.  Ok, back to hockey...

With all the tournaments that are available now and with LiveBarn, if a player is really talented they more often than not get noticed.  Players from PAHL teams get invited to Mid-Am Evaluation Camp.  Very rarely do those kids get chosen, but they get the opportunity.  From what I understand from speaking to evaluators the difference tends to come from the difference in the intensity of the game as the level of play ramps up.  Regardless of what you have to say about "faux AAA" teams, if they are ranked in the 40's to 60's and the PAHL "AA" team is ranked in the 120's the difference between the teams is usually due to the teams strength of schedule.  With a more difficult schedule usually comes a higher level of intensity and can a "good AA player" adapt to the speed, physicality, and intensity of a "AAA" game?

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48 minutes ago, Corsi said:

My kids have all aged out, but here's the advice I would give:  Play at the highest level that your player is capable of playing and your personal economic situation allows.  If you enjoy traveling on weekends and spending time with the parents, then do it.  If you don't or your personal situation doesn't allow it, then don't do it.  Hockey has changed, and the correct path isn't always a straight line anymore.  Hockey, and ALL youth sports, has become a business and that's not going to change.  If your player has the skill to play at a high level, do it...  if your financial and social situation allows you to do it, do it...  if you and the rest of your family are comfortable with it, do it.  All anyone on here can do is give advice based off of what their experience and knowledge tells them.  If someone doesn't agree, that's fine, but instead of attacking, share the difference of opinion and debate, no reason to get personal or go on the attack.  Ok, back to hockey...

With all the tournaments that are available now and with LiveBarn, if a player is really talented they more often than not get noticed.  Players from PAHL teams get invited to Mid-Am Evaluation Camp.  Very rarely do those kids get chosen, but they get the opportunity.  From what I understand from speaking to evaluators the difference tends to come from the difference in the intensity of the game as the level of play ramps up.  Regardless of what you have to say about "faux AAA" teams, if they are ranked in the 40's to 60's and the PAHL "AA" team is ranked in the 120's the difference between the teams is usually due to the teams strength of schedule.  With a more difficult schedule usually comes a higher level of intensity and can a "good AA player" adapt to the speed, physicality, and intensity of a "AAA" game?

Why should everyone be chasing like that? That's the problem. When the end game for success is .001? Why is this the norm? Why structure youth sports around the idea that you are training for Div I or the NHL? Because people are making money from it is actually a pretty crap reason to structure something for kids that way.

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Going back to Esmark for a second year, my son had opportunities elsewhere, top 20 teams and he (and im happy) to go back. I think all organizations are based on what you make of them. If its not for you , move on. If your kid is good enough it shouldn’t be a issue . 

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34 minutes ago, MMGC said:

Going back to Esmark for a second year, my son had opportunities elsewhere, top 20 teams and he (and im happy) to go back. I think all organizations are based on what you make of them. If its not for you , move on. If your kid is good enough it shouldn’t be a issue . 

I'll be back with my son for another year as well. Other opportunities seem to come to the Esmark players quite often including my son.

All organizations are there to make money, bottom line. 

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47 minutes ago, Stanley PK said:

I'll be back with my son for another year as well. Other opportunities seem to come to the Esmark players quite often including my son.

All organizations are there to make money, bottom line. 

Except the non-profits….

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They offered us a deal at 15,500 for excell and north catholic, im thinking another 7 k for team tuition, so 23k before we touch the ice . Im not knocking the organization because I think they are all what you make them , but thats a lot of cash for “non-profit. 

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17 minutes ago, MMGC said:

They offered us a deal at 15,500 for excell and north catholic, im thinking another 7 k for team tuition, so 23k before we touch the ice . Im not knocking the organization because I think they are all what you make them , but thats a lot of cash for “non-profit. 

$15,500 is probably less than one year of tuition at NCHS.

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Non-profit just means they are supposed to do certain things to benefit the community with their revenues.  Look at the billions UPMC rakes in every year and they are non-profit as well.  Pens Elite brings in a lot of money and pays some nice salaries to their staff and, like UPMC, are always trying to increase revenue.  

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On 5/5/2022 at 12:35 PM, rock said:

if pens elite aren't ringing your phone daily to get your kid, he isnt there yet. 

if he is old enough at the end of the year take him to mid ams. 

 

Untrue. There were kids cut from Pens Elite that went to Barons and then drafted to OHL

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On 5/6/2022 at 2:28 PM, Saucey said:

Why should everyone be chasing like that? That's the problem. When the end game for success is .001? Why is this the norm? Why structure youth sports around the idea that you are training for Div I or the NHL? Because people are making money from it is actually a pretty crap reason to structure something for kids that way.

I think that is where personal choice comes in.  If there was better parental education when players were just becoming involved in the game, then the reality of .001 would resonate and parents would be put in a position to make a much more well informed decision.  I'm also not saying that this is the best way to structure things, in fact I would argue that it isn't, but the reality of the situation is that this is the way that ALL youth sports are being structured now.  Regardless of if we are talking about hockey, soccer, basketball, baseball, lacrosse, if a family chooses to participate on any advanced level, there is going to be a cost associated with moving up to a higher level.  Every family will have a different level of comfort when it comes to pushing their player to develop.  If the player doesn't want to attempt to be part of that .001 I don't have a problem with that, the same way I don't have a problem with a player who is pushing for that .001% opportunity.  As long as players at all levels are getting a chance to continue to participate, I don't see a problem with it, but there should also not be a judgement passed on parents or players regardless of what end of the development spectrum they choose to pursue.  

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1 hour ago, bender05 said:

Untrue. There were kids cut from Pens Elite that went to Barons and then drafted to OHL

i said he wasn't there yet, not that he would never get there.. 

 

your statement may be true, but it means nothing in my context.  those kids were obviously good enough to go to pens elite, regardless if they got "cut" or not at some point, or developed somewhere else after. the truth remains if your good enough for the show, the pens will be calling for you. 

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I know several local boys , however, throughout the years, who PENS ELITE did not take until 14, 15 or 16 U. The kids tried out year after year and didn’t make team but then once they developed and were good enough PENS ELITE saw that and took them and they were/are successful there

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the fact of the matter is, if your kid is good enough, people will be contacting you.. at any level. how do you think the AA 07 badgers filled there roster to make a run at nationals.. coach recruited.. if a AAA player gets cut all the AA coaches know and reach out.. if your kid is dominating at his level regardless what it is coaches will want him to replace someone.  if no one is hounding you for your kid, he is most likely placed where he should be.  now of course some coaches will be filling spots if they need numbers, but if multiple coaches are wanting your kid it means he has potential to move up.  

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21 hours ago, rock said:

the fact of the matter is, if your kid is good enough, people will be contacting you.. at any level. how do you think the AA 07 badgers filled there roster to make a run at nationals.. coach recruited.. if a AAA player gets cut all the AA coaches know and reach out.. if your kid is dominating at his level regardless what it is coaches will want him to replace someone.  if no one is hounding you for your kid, he is most likely placed where he should be.  now of course some coaches will be filling spots if they need numbers, but if multiple coaches are wanting your kid it means he has potential to move up.  

Yes, 100% agree.  One other thing I would add is if you are interested in moving to a different organization or a higher level, take the time to talk to another parent who has a kid on that team, or in that organization and see what they say and what their view of that team/organization is.  There's always a chance that a given team at a higher level might not be a good fit for numerous reasons, but the biggest issues I've heard about over the years have been: 

1. Coach's style isn't a good fit.

2.  Player wasn't ready for that level of intensity/commitment.

3.  Not a good fit with other players/parents.

4.  Financial commitment/travel schedule.

Parents definitely need to do their research prior to making a decision because each of those issues can be addressed prior to jumping somewhere.  Don't be afraid to reach out to a head coach and ask to speak with them get an idea of their philosophy on coaching and other aspects of what a season would look like.

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1 hour ago, Corsi said:

Yes, 100% agree.  One other thing I would add is if you are interested in moving to a different organization or a higher level, take the time to talk to another parent who has a kid on that team, or in that organization and see what they say and what their view of that team/organization is.  There's always a chance that a given team at a higher level might not be a good fit for numerous reasons, but the biggest issues I've heard about over the years have been: 

1. Coach's style isn't a good fit.

2.  Player wasn't ready for that level of intensity/commitment.

3.  Not a good fit with other players/parents.

4.  Financial commitment/travel schedule.

Parents definitely need to do their research prior to making a decision because each of those issues can be addressed prior to jumping somewhere.  Don't be afraid to reach out to a head coach and ask to speak with them get an idea of their philosophy on coaching and other aspects of what a season would look like.

Watch yourself on this with other parents - competition, most are only looking out for their own. 

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