Jump to content

Is the Esmark 08 coach a clown or is it the whole organization?


Recommended Posts

21 hours ago, Danner27 said:

Watch yourself on this with other parents - competition, most are only looking out for their own. 

100% correct, but call it what it really is...  not "competition", a THREAT to their "little Crosby".

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 4/23/2022 at 11:29 PM, PUCKCOVID19 said:

TOP? there isnt really a TOP organization.They all have a few goods seeds and bad seeds. And yes they pulled that last year with the 2006 BY. Now magically the  used car salesman convinced enough parents that their children are the next best thing since sliced bread.....

The used car salesman is the one running the AA Viper Stars program, more so than the Esmark coaches.

  • 100 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 5/8/2022 at 10:49 AM, MMGC said:

They offered us a deal at 15,500 for excell and north catholic, im thinking another 7 k for team tuition, so 23k before we touch the ice . Im not knocking the organization because I think they are all what you make them , but thats a lot of cash for “non-profit. 

Holy Smokes!  More than we're paying for college right now.  Yikes.

Around 2015 one of my kids who were playing for PPE was asked to go to SSA.  Toured and loved it, but the "discounted" rate was still around $20k.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 5/8/2022 at 10:49 AM, MMGC said:

They offered us a deal at 15,500 for excell and north catholic, im thinking another 7 k for team tuition, so 23k before we touch the ice . Im not knocking the organization because I think they are all what you make them , but thats a lot of cash for “non-profit. 

What are the fees at Esmark? Anybody know the total cost to play at Preds AAA and SHAHA AAA. Just trying to get an idea of what AAA costs other than the Pens.  Does the cost go up the older you get?  Is 6 to 8 thousand all in about right?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 minutes ago, hockeyisgreat said:

What are the fees at Esmark? Anybody know the total cost to play at Preds AAA and SHAHA AAA. Just trying to get an idea of what AAA costs other than the Pens.  Does the cost go up the older you get?  Is 6 to 8 thousand all in about right?

Are you including travel? That makes a big difference. I could see 6-8 for all the fees etc without including the travel.  Going to be substantially higher depending on game schedules. 

  • Like 1
  • 100 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, aaaahockey said:

Are you including travel? That makes a big difference. I could see 6-8 for all the fees etc without including the travel.  Going to be substantially higher depending on game schedules. 

Including travel, I was speaking with a parent who tracked his expenses at 16U Esmark one season a few years ago and it was $18k all-in.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 hours ago, Wes said:

Holy Smokes!  More than we're paying for college right now.  Yikes.

Around 2015 one of my kids who were playing for PPE was asked to go to SSA.  Toured and loved it, but the "discounted" rate was still around $20k.  

But that 20K would have included and provided a far better education than the 4 hours a day at NC.

Excel will NOT put anyone into the NHL. The player themselves will. That's who "makes it" the ones who are completely focused on making it happen. Recent ones bear this out vividly, Voit, Cooley, Humphries, Mooney. What do they all have in common? Uncommon work ethic, the willingness to sacrifice a lot of things that 99.99% of others are not. They love the game and love being on the ice at all times.

So that's why a Prep school route is more valuable in the long run.

 

  • 100 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

37 minutes ago, Lucky17 said:

Including travel, I was speaking with a parent who tracked his expenses at 16U Esmark one season a few years ago and it was $18k all-in.

And that preceded Putin's price hike. Just imagine now.

Gas - gouge

Hotels - gouge plus tourney kickback

Food - gouge

 

It's probably closer to 22-23 now.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 hours ago, hockeyisgreat said:

What are the fees at Esmark? Anybody know the total cost to play at Preds AAA and SHAHA AAA. Just trying to get an idea of what AAA costs other than the Pens.  Does the cost go up the older you get?  Is 6 to 8 thousand all in about right?

Shaha AAA between $3100-3800 for players.  Around $1200 for goalies for AAA

Link to comment
Share on other sites

12 hours ago, hockeyisgreat said:

What are the fees at Esmark? Anybody know the total cost to play at Preds AAA and SHAHA AAA. Just trying to get an idea of what AAA costs other than the Pens.  Does the cost go up the older you get?  Is 6 to 8 thousand all in about right?

Looking up and talking with some people from around other organizations it looks like PPE comes in on top starting at $7,000 for 14-16u and over $10,000 for 18's without the coaches fees and slush fund they ask for at the beginning of the season also. Esmark to start looks to be around $3,500 and Vengeance start right around $4,000. All NOT including travel costs. 

Most PPE teams don't fundraise unless it's a special year like the peewee Quebec year, Esmark does do a few fundraisers to help out with travel and costs and doesn't look like much fundraising out of Vengeance. 

PPE FORCES you to buy their gloves, pants, gym outfits and yellow helmets while DICKS "donates" the bags, jumpsuits, jerseys/socks (practice also) and a random surprise for the kids at the end of the season so they don't have to give you any of your leftover money back. 

Esmark has gloves available but not forced to buy them and asks you to buy a black helmet. They have you buy jumpsuits and they give you gym clothes, jerseys/socks (practice also) polo shirt and bags. 

Vengeance give you bags, gloves, red helmets,  jumpsuits, gym clothes, jerseys/socks (practice  also) and pants plus a discount on equipment all season long. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 hours ago, bender05 said:

Shaha AAA between $3100-3800 for players.  Around $1200 for goalies for AAA

This should say "starting at" because you then have to start paying regular team fees for ice and other things.  And I don't mean just SHAHA, this is true of all the "AAA" teams including Pens. And if you are worried your kid is on the bubble, get ready to pay for every extra workout, skills training, and in the case of Pens even school ?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

All in, I'd have trouble believing you could do a AAA team for less than $12k at younger ages and 15-17k for the older guys.

10 years ago every birthyear had 30-40 AAA level players split between 2 clubs. Now it's closer to 70-120 players split between 4-7 clubs. Think of all that extra cash being dumped into these teams.

You'd think people would realize PAHL AA would actually be very competitive if you didn't skim all these players off the top. Everyone saves a boatload of money and could still play at the same level, just labeled with one less A.

  • 100 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

The Pens, Esmark and Vengeance do it differently.  Esmark gives you a price and that is it.  Vengeance gives you a lower price (at least at 08 and lower) but keeps asking for more money throughout the year.  Pens gives you a price and then adds a team fee.  Plus, excel and North Catholic?   For midgets, my somewhat educated guess is all in for the Pens is probably close to 30.  Esmark maybe 18?  Vengeance is the wild card and would vary by the team.   Remember this is "travel hockey" which is nothing like travel soccer or baseball.    

Hockey is expensive.  It is the constant travel that adds up.   Gas, hotels, tolls, food, etc.  Even the better AA teams are expensive.  The fees are less but if you are on a decent team, I am guessing you are out of town at least 4-5 tournaments plus a handful of day trips to play independent games. 

What really drives the price up is the length of the season.   And cost goes up as the kids get older.  Longer games, ice cuts and more refs.  

Edited by twoboys
Link to comment
Share on other sites

11 hours ago, Pucks11 said:

Looking up and talking with some people from around other organizations it looks like PPE comes in on top starting at $7,000 for 14-16u and over $10,000 for 18's without the coaches fees and slush fund they ask for at the beginning of the season also. Esmark to start looks to be around $3,500 and Vengeance start right around $4,000. All NOT including travel costs. 

Most PPE teams don't fundraise unless it's a special year like the peewee Quebec year, Esmark does do a few fundraisers to help out with travel and costs and doesn't look like much fundraising out of Vengeance. 

PPE FORCES you to buy their gloves, pants, gym outfits and yellow helmets while DICKS "donates" the bags, jumpsuits, jerseys/socks (practice also) and a random surprise for the kids at the end of the season so they don't have to give you any of your leftover money back. 

Esmark has gloves available but not forced to buy them and asks you to buy a black helmet. They have you buy jumpsuits and they give you gym clothes, jerseys/socks (practice also) polo shirt and bags. 

Vengeance give you bags, gloves, red helmets,  jumpsuits, gym clothes, jerseys/socks (practice  also) and pants plus a discount on equipment all season long. 

do you realize how much esmark travels - to places requiring flight and rental car. way way more than PPE. the 18’s went so much this past season and usually to play low level teams. i don’t get it. 

  • Like 1
  • 100 1
  • Fist Bump 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 hours ago, aaaahockey said:

This should say "starting at" because you then have to start paying regular team fees for ice and other things.  And I don't mean just SHAHA, this is true of all the "AAA" teams including Pens. And if you are worried your kid is on the bubble, get ready to pay for every extra workout, skills training, and in the case of Pens even school ?

100% I would make an educated guess and and say you are probably in the high $4k - low $5k once you add in the "ice and other things".  Travel expenses are their own animal, but I would guess the number I threw out above would be pretty accurate for just the hockey related expenses excluding travel.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 hours ago, Icebucket said:

All in, I'd have trouble believing you could do a AAA team for less than $12k at younger ages and 15-17k for the older guys.

10 years ago every birthyear had 30-40 AAA level players split between 2 clubs. Now it's closer to 70-120 players split between 4-7 clubs. Think of all that extra cash being dumped into these teams.

You'd think people would realize PAHL AA would actually be very competitive if you didn't skim all these players off the top. Everyone saves a boatload of money and could still play at the same level, just labeled with one less A.

What does it cost to play on a good PAHL team. Looks like the 06 Renegades and Allegheny do mutiple travle tournaments and get a decent bit of ice. 

 

Before saying PAHL is cheaper, I would think this statement is not really accurate, If you are playing on a PAHL program that gets less ice time / practices, plays less tournaments and often have volunteer coaches, that keep the cost down. I think you need to look at what you are getting for your money, Seems like the biggest expense could be extra or further travel, but some like this or want to travel to these tournaments. i know people that paid pretty close in PAHL AA fees as they did at AAA. 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

18 hours ago, mrfreeze said:

Before saying PAHL is cheaper, I would think this statement is not really accurate, If you are playing on a PAHL program that gets less ice time / practices, plays less tournaments and often have volunteer coaches, that keep the cost down. I think you need to look at what you are getting for your money, Seems like the biggest expense could be extra or further travel, but some like this or want to travel to these tournaments. i know people that paid pretty close in PAHL AA fees as they did at AAA. 

Yes, that is very accurate.  If you figure a team that has a volunteer coach vs. a paid coach is probably saving the group as a whole maybe $10k for a season, so there's a good bit of expense right there and then you add in playing additional "one off" games to fill a schedule someone has to foot the bill for ice and officials.  It is ultimately up to the team what they are comfortable with spending and the amount of travel they are willing to do.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 5/18/2022 at 2:34 PM, mrfreeze said:

What does it cost to play on a good PAHL team. Looks like the 06 Renegades and Allegheny do mutiple travle tournaments and get a decent bit of ice. 

 

Before saying PAHL is cheaper, I would think this statement is not really accurate, If you are playing on a PAHL program that gets less ice time / practices, plays less tournaments and often have volunteer coaches, that keep the cost down. I think you need to look at what you are getting for your money, Seems like the biggest expense could be extra or further travel, but some like this or want to travel to these tournaments. i know people that paid pretty close in PAHL AA fees as they did at AAA. 

Sorry but I wholeheartedly disagree.  The PAHL teams you referenced did not have paid coaches nor airline travel to tournaments - all were car travel.  PAHL team slush funds typically do not exceed $600 per player and paid for all tournament entry fees.  Esmark U16 had 45 away games last year ( not counting games against Barons which can be a commute ) with airline trips to MO and MN, so how many nights in hotels is that?  If history is any indicator those playing for Esmark will pay through the nose in travel costs this season.

Vengeance U15 had 30 away games which included a trip to Nashville while PPE U15 had 35 away games with hotel stays.  PPE U16 had 29 non-commute games with trips to CT and RI.

Compare that to Allegheny U15 with 24 away games and SCIR U15 with 14.  SCIR’s national champion U16 team had 60+ games while 23 were away.  NP U16?  A total of 11 away games.  None of these teams had to board a plane to get to any games.

When tuition is lower, team fees are lower and overnight travel is less, top line costs are less.  I know of no one that paid roughly the same out of pocket for AAA hockey compared to AA hockey.

Edited by fafa fohi
  • Like 2
  • 100 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 hours ago, fafa fohi said:

Sorry but I wholeheartedly disagree.  The PAHL teams you referenced did not have paid coaches nor airline travel to tournaments - all were car travel.  PAHL team slush funds typically do not exceed $600 per player and paid for all tournament entry fees.  Esmark U16 had 45 away games last year ( not counting games against Barons which can be a commute ) with airline trips to MO and MN, so how many nights in hotels is that?  If history is any indicator those playing for Esmark will pay through the nose in travel costs this season.

Vengeance U15 had 30 away games which included a trip to Nashville while PPE U15 had 35 away games with hotel stays.  PPE had 29 non-commute games with trips to CT and RI.

Compare that to Allegheny U15 with 24 away games and SCIR U15 with 14.  SCIR’s national champion U16 team had 60+ games while 23 were away.  NP U16?  A total of 11 away games.  None of these teams had to board a plane to get to any games.

When tuition is lower, team fees are lower and overnight travel is less, top line costs are less.  I know of no one that paid roughly the same out of pocket for AAA hockey compared to AA hockey.

And all of those teams were pretty darn good... spending extra and traveling further does not necessarily equate to development.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Obviously any team can go overboard and travel a bunch regardless of their level, but the AA teams are almost always significantly cheaper... The 15-20 guaranteed local PAHL games fill out the schedule nicely and help hit the benchmark of expected games without having to travel all around the country.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 5/18/2022 at 10:38 AM, RegDunlop7 said:

And that preceded Putin's price hike. Just imagine now.

That was sarcasm, I'm well aware of the real culprit.

What's his name?

You know...... the guy. You know, the one with the teleprompter and fake Oval Office set. Damn it, what's his name?

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

16 hours ago, Icebucket said:

Obviously any team can go overboard and travel a bunch regardless of their level, but the AA teams are almost always significantly cheaper... The 15-20 guaranteed local PAHL games fill out the schedule nicely and help hit the benchmark of expected games without having to travel all around the country.

This is the point that I was trying to make earlier, and all of this I feel ultimately comes down to a few things:

1.  Can a player play at that level?  Be it "AAA" or PAHL "AA" or another PAHL level.

2.  What are the players/parents comfortable with as far as travel and financial commitment is concerned.

I understand why people on here criticize the cost, but who's business is it to criticize families on how they choose to spend their money.  I might not think that my nextdoor neighbor needs to spend $50,000 on a new car because a $30,000 car will do the same thing, but it's their money to spend, not mine.  

  • Like 1
  • Fist Bump 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

20 minutes ago, Corsi said:

This is the point that I was trying to make earlier, and all of this I feel ultimately comes down to a few things:

1.  Can a player play at that level?  Be it "AAA" or PAHL "AA" or another PAHL level.

2.  What are the players/parents comfortable with as far as travel and financial commitment is concerned.

I understand why people on here criticize the cost, but who's business is it to criticize families on how they choose to spend their money.  I might not think that my nextdoor neighbor needs to spend $50,000 on a new car because a $30,000 car will do the same thing, but it's their money to spend, not mine.  

People criticize because it drains the talent playing locally and not everyone can afford to pay that or wants to spend all their time traveling when the finish line remains the same.

 It is NOT good for the sport at all to continue to raise the bar for entry. I mean I get it, if you got the change you don't give a flying F about people without. Pretty standard for people with money IMHO. You prevent people with talent from playing. I hear this argument all the time, like draining the talent doesn't somehow affect other families. It does. I know a family with a good kid in a low birth year who has some talent that is poised to exit the sport at his prime playing year because the level of play is just that bad in PAHL and the family is not willing to go play AA under a faux AAA name.

So yeah, people care. I get it you don't.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×
×
  • Create New...