Rostraver sold??

[Spear and Magic Helmet]

2 hours ago, fafa fohi said:

Pens LTP can range for $140-$220 for ice time - everything else is free.  And to see other rinks / groups get involved at this level is encouraging as Pens have been the one and only since its inception.  I see BB acquiring rinks such as Rostraver is a huge win as it keeps it in the hockey community as opposed to selling to an outside group and converting to a church.  We have PLENTY of those already.

And if BB puts together a competitive league to PAHL, even better.  

You definitely would like to see a bit more LTP in the area. I feel like the average game I see these days has 80% of the players being right-handed shots, which is pretty clear evidence that they weren't really taught at the start. The problem is that tournament ice sells for a whole lot more than LTP ice.

[Pucks11]

34 minutes ago, Spear and Magic Helmet said:

You definitely would like to see a bit more LTP in the area. I feel like the average game I see these days has 80% of the players being right-handed shots, which is pretty clear evidence that they weren't really taught at the start. The problem is that tournament ice sells for a whole lot more than LTP ice.

What does being right handed have to do with being taught?? A kid will shoot how they feel comfortable. If you have to FORCE them to shoot left handed then that's not being taught. Some kids feel comfortable with their dominant hand on top and some feel better with it down low.

Also where do you get that tournament ice sells at a higher rate than LTP ice? Most places have a price for peak season and for off season. They don't charge by who is using the ice. Even still you have 2 teams in a game for a set price for an hour and a half slot (usually around $300-$400) and then you have LTP where they charge $15-$20 and hour with 30-50 on the ice and make$450- $1,000.

[Spear and Magic Helmet]

54 minutes ago, Pucks11 said:

What does being right handed have to do with being taught?? A kid will shoot how they feel comfortable. If you have to FORCE them to shoot left handed then that's not being taught. Some kids feel comfortable with their dominant hand on top and some feel better with it down low.

Also where do you get that tournament ice sells at a higher rate than LTP ice? Most places have a price for peak season and for off season. They don't charge by who is using the ice. Even still you have 2 teams in a game for a set price for an hour and a half slot (usually around $300-$400) and then you have LTP where they charge $15-$20 and hour with 30-50 on the ice and make$450- $1,000.

In my experience, a lot of kids go to the store and buy a stick without knowing if they are right or left shots. If the parent knows nothing about hockey, they buy a right handed stick, which is sort of your point, once they commit to the stick, they're forced to be right handed. In general, right handed people hold things like brooms and shovels with their right hand at the top, so they should be left hand shots. I will say that if I watch a higher level of hockey, even, gasp, faux AAA, the lefty/right ratio is much more towards lefties, so the skill level does kind of filter it out. But if you told a right handed kid to wear a baseball glove on his right hand ("hey, it's right handed!"), you'd definitely see a bit of difference in fielding skills.

Tournament ice definitely sells for more. I think your numbers are right or at least close, but in talking with rink managers, they tournaments pay more for the ice than the contracted ice, so more toward the higher end of your range. I disagree though in the number of students. I would say more like 15-20 students. Once you factor that in, it's maybe $100 more per hour ice than LTP. Once you consider the cost of instructors, which adds up over the 25 or so weeks of the peak season, the difference is bigger. Let's put it this way, there are rinks in the area that seem to have a tournament every holiday weekend, and Black Bear hosts tons of tournaments every year.

[Icebucket]

There's a reason why Canadian and European players are almost all left handed shots.

I know most everyone shops online these days, but back when they used to have actual hockey stores run by people who knew what they were doing here is usually how it went.  They held the stick out for the kid to grab for the first time. If they grab it right their right hand, they should be playing left handed.

[Lifelongbender]

37 minutes ago, Icebucket said:

There's a reason why Canadian and European players are almost all left handed shots.

I know most everyone shops online these days, but back when they used to have actual hockey stores run by people who knew what they were doing here is usually how it went.  They held the stick out for the kid to grab for the first time. If they grab it right their right hand, they should be playing left handed.

I'm not at all sure what the discussion of left/right shots has to do with Rostraver being sold, but as a coach and a player I do have to comment that, unlike in Europe and Canada, most Pittsburgh players are right handed and shoot right (close to the percentage of right handed people shoot right). You'll have noticed, if you pay attention, that about 65% of NHL players shoot left (it's between 60% and 70% according to NHL.com), despite those players almost certainly being mostly right handed as well. 

It may be true that what really matters is how the player feels. But the numbers don't lie. It's obvious that most right handed players in the NHL shoot left from the numbers. Over the years I have come to believe that this is baseball-related - most Pittsburgh players do not have parents who played hockey (yet), but I'm betting that most of them have parents who played baseball and/or softball. And righties shoot right in baseball - that is, they stand to the left of the ball so that their bat is on their right side. I think that inexperienced parents assume that right handed and "shoots right" are the same thing, and kids just get swept up in it. (Amusing sidenote is that I am right handed and shoot left, but both of my kids are right handed and shoot right despite my efforts to get them to try shooting left).

For any given player the handedness of their shot is entirely personal. It is, however, accepted wisdom supported by statistics that righties "should" shoot left.

And by the way, @Icebucket has it right. That's just how I remember stores selling sticks (and by stores, I mean Rupp's) back in my youth.

Edited October 14, 2022 by Lifelongbender

[fafa fohi]

2 hours ago, Pucks11 said:

What does being right handed have to do with being taught?? A kid will shoot how they feel comfortable. If you have to FORCE them to shoot left handed then that's not being taught. Some kids feel comfortable with their dominant hand on top and some feel better with it down low.

Also where do you get that tournament ice sells at a higher rate than LTP ice? Most places have a price for peak season and for off season. They don't charge by who is using the ice. Even still you have 2 teams in a game for a set price for an hour and a half slot (usually around $300-$400) and then you have LTP where they charge $15-$20 and hour with 30-50 on the ice and make$450- $1,000.

Take a typical LTP program as an example:

- 40 kids per group @ $175 per kid for each 50 minute ice slot  = $7,000, now divide into ten ice slots = $700 for an hour of ice time including an ice cut for an entire LTP season.  They are making hand over fist on ice time, and isn't the equipment donated by Dick's?  

[Lifelongbender]

2 hours ago, Pucks11 said:

Also where do you get that tournament ice sells at a higher rate than LTP ice? Most places have a price for peak season and for off season. They don't charge by who is using the ice. Even still you have 2 teams in a game for a set price for an hour and a half slot (usually around $300-$400) and then you have LTP where they charge $15-$20 and hour with 30-50 on the ice and make$450- $1,000.

This is true, to some extent. The primary reason for the differences in the costs for Little Pens at different rinks is the cost of the ice at the rinks. But don't kid yourself, @Pucks11, organizations/rinks are definitely giving reduced ice rates to Little Pens sessions. At least some of them are. It's absolutely true that LTP ice is cheaper on the average than game ice.

On the other hand, @fafa fohi is also correct, above. In the end there's plenty of money for the ice in the program costs. I just know that the ice is discounted for LTP sessions at many rinks. 

Edited October 14, 2022 by Lifelongbender

[Novos51]

I gave both my son and grandson a flat bladed stick to play with for a season in mites. This determined what hand they shot with. I also didn’t let them have any curve the first year. I wanted them to learn how to use the forehand and backhand. My grown son has a great backhand and uses a very minimal curve. We will see with my grandson. 

[Lifelongbender]

1 hour ago, Novos51 said:

I gave both my son and grandson a flat bladed stick to play with for a season in mites. This determined what hand they shot with. I also didn’t let them have any curve the first year. I wanted them to learn how to use the forehand and backhand. My grown son has a great backhand and uses a very minimal curve. We will see with my grandson. 

My kids have been out of Little Pens for a ling time now, but back at the beginning at least they were giving everyone a flat bladed stick for that program too.

[Novos51]

57 minutes ago, Lifelongbender said:

My kids have been out of Little Pens for a ling time now, but back at the beginning at least they were giving everyone a flat bladed stick for that program too.

Yeah same case. 90% of the parents replaced the stick by the end with a curve. Sometimes aggressive curves

[Corsi]

Back to the BB/AHF discussion.  Those teams will still be able to do their PAHL schedule, and just schedule around the AHF "Showcase Weekends", which will at least now take place locally.  While it might cost more money in fees, it might not be a bad way for some of these teams to not have to travel to Buffalo/Detroit/Cleveland to get games with out of town teams.  I'm going to assume that the savings in travel/hotels/food should be able to balance out the additional fees associated with the AHF.  My only caveat with that would be that they need to do it like some of the tournaments currently do and when building the schedule, they work to keep teams from the same city from playing each other since there is a chance that they will see them during other parts of the year at some point.  

[Wes]

First bit of news in the Rostraver/BB era, livebarn will be installed (finally).

 

 

[sadday4hockey]

Doesn't that require the internet? Do they have that there?

[Wes]

They have multiple internet connections there but Jim refuses to let the public use them, because he has no idea how to properly configure his network.  I had previously offered to handle this for free but was rebuffed.

Livebarn installs their own internet dedicated connection and doesn't use ones already at the rink.

I am hopeful that free wifi will come soon after.  The aluminum/steel structure kills cell phone access into the building and you almost have to go outside to get cell phone service.

 

Edited October 19, 2022 by Wes
typo

[GrumpyOldPucker]

On 10/10/2022 at 12:29 PM, Lifelongbender said:

LOL. And that wasn't even the worst think about that rink.

Well the locker rooms were downstairs something like 15 or 20 steps and it was like going down into a dungeon.... the referee "dressing area" was literally a 5'x6' closet built off the inside wall at one end of the rink. Lighting, boards, and ice sucked bad. Probably the only rink in the area that was worse was the old Golden Mile rink in monroeville.

[GrumpyOldPucker]

Oh, on the righty\lefty thing..... the idea is to have the dominant\more dexterous hand on top for finer control. Having the dominant hand low will initially provide better control and a harder shot when the player is young and has a death grip in the stick, but becomes a detriment as it often leads to a terminal case of "stone hands".

[Hockey00]

On 10/18/2022 at 8:53 AM, Corsi said:

Back to the BB/AHF discussion.  Those teams will still be able to do their PAHL schedule, and just schedule around the AHF "Showcase Weekends", which will at least now take place locally.  While it might cost more money in fees, it might not be a bad way for some of these teams to not have to travel to Buffalo/Detroit/Cleveland to get games with out of town teams.  I'm going to assume that the savings in travel/hotels/food should be able to balance out the additional fees associated with the AHF.  My only caveat with that would be that they need to do it like some of the tournaments currently do and when building the schedule, they work to keep teams from the same city from playing each other since there is a chance that they will see them during other parts of the year at some point.  

Mad Men Hockey has done a nice job this fall doing the AAA showcase weekends in Ohio. Maybe they could bring that there?

[Lifelongbender]

16 hours ago, GrumpyOldPucker said:

Oh, on the righty\lefty thing..... the idea is to have the dominant\more dexterous hand on top for finer control. Having the dominant hand low will initially provide better control and a harder shot when the player is young and has a death grip in the stick, but becomes a detriment as it often leads to a terminal case of "stone hands".

It doesn't hurt that shooting left puts a righty's dominant eye towards the target for most folks, either.

[Spear and Magic Helmet]

Kind of a nice article about Murph:

https://www.post-gazette.com/business/career-workplace/2022/11/05/pittsburgh-ice-rink-market-rostraver-black-bear-hockey/stories/202211060046

 

Nearly a month into retirement, Jim Murphy can’t stop waking up at 4 a.m.

He sold his business — Rostraver Ice Garden — on Oct. 11. But after 30 years of the steady grind he followed seven days a week to open up the rink each morning, his body hasn’t yet made the adjustment.

“Retirement is a beautiful thing,” he said. “It was too much for me, at 75, to continue to run that business.”

Mr. Murphy used to worry about finding a buyer for the company that he put his heart as well as his life savings into. The other thing he didn’t want to see was a new owner converting the ice rink to a different use.

The company that bought him out, Black Bear Sports Group, alleviated both of those concerns. Black Bear is in the business of operating ice rinks and that is how it intends to use Rostraver Ice Garden.

“They got a nice facility, and I got out,” Mr. Murphy said. “It’s good for both of us, I guess.”

With the purchase of the 65,000-square-foot facility in Belle Vernon, the privately held Bethesda, Md., company also gained another key asset in a region where it is expanding its market share.

Rostraver Ice Garden is the fifth ice arena Black Bear has purchased since 2015 in the Western Pennsylvania/Ohio region. The sports and entertainment company owns 31 ice rink facilities across the U.S.

But as the company has worked to grow its foot print in this region, its offers to buy ice rink facilities have not always been welcomed in some communities.

The Beaver County Board of Commissioners rejected an offer by Black Bear representatives in 2019 to buy the county’s ice rink.

“Our board was not interested in pursuing any deal with Black Bear,” said Tony Caltury, director of recreation and tourism at Brady Run Ice Arena in Beaver County.

He said the county didn’t want to hand over control of the facility to a private company that might concentrate its programs on hockey and possibly cut back on providing adequate ice time for figure skating and other youth programs.

Other concerns also weighed heavily in the county’s decision, he said.

“They are trying to get a monopoly on the market,” Mr. Caltury said.

“There was a fear in our community that if we were to sell, that the kids would be priced out of hockey,” he said. “Being a county-owned facility, we can keep prices as low as possible.”

Strategic move

From Black Bear’s point of view, the purchase of Rostraver Ice Garden is a strategic acquisition.

“It fits perfectly, geographically with our other ice rinks in the Greater Pittsburgh area and Northeastern Ohio sub-markets, said Murry Gunty, founder and CEO.

“We have a rink in Youngstown; two on the east side of [Pittsburgh]; and one on the south side of town,” he said. “So, this one on the south east side of town fits perfectly.”

Founded in 2015, the company focuses on buying ice arenas in metropolitan areas with strong demographics and an NHL club presence.

Black Bear is owner of the Foundry Adult Hockey League, which is the largest co-ed adult learn-to-play hockey program in the country with about 2,500 players who participate in tournaments held in the 23 cities where the company owns ice rinks.

Other tournament businesses that the company owns include Atlantic Hockey Federation, Atlantic Girls Hockey Federation, Tier 1 Hockey Federation, National Girls Hockey League and Defender Hockey Tournaments.

Pittsburgh is an especially key market for the company.

“Pittsburgh is a great hockey town,” Mr. Gunty said. He added that on top of great fan support, the region has everything in place to support hockey for the longterm — that includes strong youth and high school hockey programs and the city being home to one of the best National Hockey League franchises in America — the Penguins.

For hockey fans and hockey league players, this region sits in a geographic sweet spot.

“People can drive to Pittsburgh from all over the adjacent hockey markets like Michigan, upstate New York, New Jersey, D.C and eastern Pennsylvania,” Mr. Gunty said.

“Everyone can drive to Pittsburgh,” he said. “It’s only a three- or four-hour drive. So, it’s a very attractive place to play.”

Other Black Bear-owned ice rinks in this region include Printscape Arena at Southpointe; Palmer Imaging Arena in Delmont; Pittsburgh Ice Arena in New Kensington; and Deep Freeze Arena in Youngstown.

The Pittsburgh region supports about 30 ice rinks that supply more than 40 sheets of ice used by leagues and individuals. It goes from Youngstown, Ohio, and south Morgantown, W.Va, east to Johnstown and north to Meadville.

Ice rinks in this area earn revenue by charging skaters hourly rates. In the Pittsburgh region, rates typically run from $275 to $350 an hour. One source familiar with the local industry said when Black Bear purchased Printscape about four years ago, the hourly rate immediately shot up to $400 an hour.

Mr. Gunty wouldn’t talk specifically about prices, but he acknowledged Black Bear’s prices might be higher than the region is used to.

“We often purchase old rinks that are at risk of closure due to mismanagement.,” he said. “They often require millions of capital expenditures to survive. Moreover they often are below market in their rates.”

He said the company does raise rates in the markets it operates in to meet what the market can support. “Given the large number of rinks in each market (including Pittsburgh) in which we operate, we have to be very aware of what others charge to ensure that we are competitive.”

For years, Black Bear has been busy trying to buy its competitors.

Several independent ice rink owners in the region declined to comment on the record for this report.

When asked if the company plans more acquisitions in this region, Mr. Gunty would only say “We’re open to it.”

A balancing act

As a municipal facility, the Mt. Lebanon Ice Center serves users with a diverse program mix rather than focusing on hockey play, said Tim Ishman, ice rink manager.

Groups, clubs and leagues for figure skating and hockey pay a private rental fee of $339 an hour.

During public open skate sessions kids, families and seniors can come in pay between $6 to $9 per individual to participate in those sessions

Mr. Ishman describes the facility as cost-conscious, but not profit-driven.

“You try to fill your ice the best that you can,” he said. “But I think everybody’s mix is going to be a little different, depending on what the area is looking for.

“There are some rinks that are just hockey only,” he said. “We are a community recreational center. We are a little bit of everything for everybody. That’s our niche.”

Mr. Gunty said Black Bear rinks devote a lot of attention to the youngest ages with learn-to-skate hockey programs and a free gear program it does in partnership with the Penguins.

Figure skating is a much smaller part of its program, but it’s not left out, he said. Figure skating instructors will be teaching the youngest kids to skate.

“We just want to be good stewards of the game of hockey,” he said.”That’s our role in the market.”

Mr. Gunty said he has been in discussions with Mr. Murphy for close to five years to buy Rostraver Ice Garden. Neither party would disclose the purchase price they agreed on.

Mr. Murphy says he doesn’t miss running the ice rink a bit. He still gets calls, texts and emails from customers wanting to schedule ice time. He gladly forwards everything to his contact at Black Bear.

He takes his dog on walks and rakes at his Bethel Park home leaves to pass the time. He looks forward to some hunting and fishing.

He could never go watch his 9- and 7-year-old grandchildren play hockey at the Spencer Center while he was working seven days a week at the ice rink, and he looks forward to getting more involved now.

“I’m not a kid anymore and it took a toll on me,” Mr. Murphy said of his small business. “I hit a point where I couldn’t do it anymore.”

Tim Grant: tgrant@post-gazette.com or 412-779-5834

First Published November 5, 2022, 6:00am

 

[hockeyisgreat]

How long before the AHF comes to Western Pa with programs at all the Black Bear owned rinks?  Would they be able to do both PAHL and AHF or will BB make them play AHF?  Stay tuned!  How many rinks in Western PA does BB need to make the AHF a reality in SW PA.

[Carl Racki]

30 minutes ago, hockeyisgreat said:

How long before the AHF comes to Western Pa with programs at all the Black Bear owned rinks?  Would they be able to do both PAHL and AHF or will BB make them play AHF?  Stay tuned!  How many rinks in Western PA does BB need to make the AHF a reality in SW PA.

Personally I see no advantage with the AHF.  It would probably just mean further travel and higher costing league for the same level of play in PAHL  The thing I hate about BB is it seems they are trying to create Monopolies and set the prices they want.  Every rink they purchased so far in the area has raised the cost of ice time..  Definitely not good for the consumer.  How many rinks in the area do they need to buy/own before they are considered a monopoly?