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14 hours ago, ChiefKeef said:

The vengeance are currently equipped to take on Cranberry kids fully.  They have 3 sheets,  they have a reputable staff there,  and they largely focus on Pittsburgh kids already. 

Location is still a major issue with Vengeance. It will never be what it could sitting way up 28 north and east of the city.

People don't like to admit this, but there is more hockey talent in the south hills than north of the city. Mt. Lebanon, Upper St. Clair, Peters Township, Bethel Park, etc. This is the sole reason why there are quite a few SHAHA and Preds teams ranked higher than Vengeance and Esmark. It's certainly not because of the "prestige" of SHAHA and Preds. It's because there is more talent in the south hills, and some families would never dream of driving to Alpha or New Ken.

Cranberry is doable, Harmarville is bad, and New Ken is atrocious for anyone coming from the south hills. Vengeance will never be what it could be, because of that location. You need something on the 79 corridor.

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We aren’t talking about the talented Preds and Shaha players needing to drive to Alpha.  They’ve made their choice to stay where they are. That’s fine. 
 

We are discussing who’s best positioned to be a competitor for the kids already driving to Cranberry from virtually everywhere around town.  Those parents will make the trip wherever they need to.  
 

So the south hills and whoever is not wanting to drive wherever is irrelevant. 

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On 1/25/2023 at 3:32 PM, ChiefKeef said:

 

On 1/26/2023 at 8:55 PM, Danner27 said:

Some left while he was still at the mission, others when they knew he was leaving the program for dead.  Two western pa kids went to team Illinois after they had enough of the him & You know who at ppe. One of these kids ended up in the ushl, the other in the nahl. If they make it to ncaa d1 I’m sure ppe will put up signs ab

Yeah I’ve heard about his days in Chicago.  There’s a trend with people getting fed up with him.  The entire 06 crew from Pittsburgh drives their children to Cleveland to avoid the guy.  He’s pulled the same shtick everywhere he’s been.  And programs have suffered as a result.  

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9 minutes ago, ChiefKeef said:

So the south hills and whoever is not wanting to drive wherever is irrelevant. 

But it's not irrelevant. To have a legitimate competitor to PPE you need to tick all the boxes. Vengeance is already missing one of the boxes (location) before we even move on to other boxes.

I'm not saying Vengeance is a bad program. But they are certainly not positioned to either compete with or surpass PPE.

Believe me, I'm no PPE appologist.

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I disagree.  Harmarville is located off of 28 or accessed by the turnpike and they have the facility to make it work.  You’re making a sacrifice with time between there or Cranberry either way.  

 I’m talking providing all current high level athletes the prospect of actual development with a heavy focus on local kids.  
 

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15 hours ago, RJUSHL said:

Location is still a major issue with Vengeance. It will never be what it could sitting way up 28 north and east of the city.

People don't like to admit this, but there is more hockey talent in the south hills than north of the city. Mt. Lebanon, Upper St. Clair, Peters Township, Bethel Park, etc. This is the sole reason why there are quite a few SHAHA and Preds teams ranked higher than Vengeance and Esmark. It's certainly not because of the "prestige" of SHAHA and Preds. It's because there is more talent in the south hills, and some families would never dream of driving to Alpha or New Ken.

Cranberry is doable, Harmarville is bad, and New Ken is atrocious for anyone coming from the south hills. Vengeance will never be what it could be, because of that location. You need something on the 79 corridor.

The predators  U18 “AAA” lost 8-1 to the Lebo AA Pahl team. They currently have 3 Pahl teams ranked higher than them in the district! That program needs blown up, get Gary out and start over or just go away and be a Pahl / indie aa program. The Columbus chill have a higher rating ffs! Those predators teams are a  great example of parents wanting the extra A. These kids are not even mid level AA players, they are bottom line AA players. 

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11 hours ago, Danner27 said:

The predators  U18 “AAA” lost 8-1 to the Lebo AA Pahl team. They currently have 3 Pahl teams ranked higher than them in the district! That program needs blown up, get Gary out and start over or just go away and be a Pahl / indie aa program. The Columbus chill have a higher rating ffs! Those predators teams are a  great example of parents wanting the extra A. These kids are not even mid level AA players, they are bottom line AA players. 

You have to look at each team in every organization on a case-by-case basis, instead of making sweeping generalizations about every team in an organization. There are a decent number of Preds AAA teams ranked higher than their Esmark counterparts. Are those Esmark teams examples of parents doing nothing but chasing that extra A?

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On 1/27/2023 at 9:09 AM, aaaahockey said:

Speaking of which, looks like another year the second sheet isn't really happening at Printscape?

I was wondering about this as well. You would think there would've been an announcement. But people in the Rebellion organization are saying that Black Bear has told them to put together teams for next season based on two sheets of ice. They've always had to limit the number of teams in the past because of available ice. I'm sure it will be definitive in the next week or two when tryouts and expected number of teams are announced.

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1 hour ago, RJUSHL said:

You have to look at each team in every organization on a case-by-case basis, instead of making sweeping generalizations about every team in an organization. There are a decent number of Preds AAA teams ranked higher than their Esmark counterparts. Are those Esmark teams examples of parents doing nothing but chasing that extra A?

Perhaps bantam and below, but the Midget “tier 1” teams playing out of Ralph’s Castle are nothing but a joke, entirely.

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5 hours ago, RJUSHL said:

You have to look at each team in every organization on a case-by-case basis, instead of making sweeping generalizations about every team in an organization. There are a decent number of Preds AAA teams ranked higher than their Esmark counterparts. Are those Esmark teams examples of parents doing nothing but chasing that extra A?

U15, U16 & U18 are all that matters.  15 & 16 being the most important. That place has & always will be a dumpster fire at midget. When 3 Pahl AA teams who HAVE to play some weak teams on their schedule are ranked higher than a tier 1 “AAA” team, that my friend is a complete joke. I’m sure some ego’s were hit hard. I heard Gary canceled the second game against Lebo for the 18’s after they got stomped in game 1. It’s bad for business. 
 

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Here is my thought on how to improve things in the area for local kids. Esmark and Vengeance need to join together and join a legit Tier 1 League and form teams at all levels, they should also consider forming a Tier 2 elite program that does not play in PAHL and use this as a feeder into the Tier 1 program. Yuri and Kosick are establish midget coaches with connections and history and should be placed as the coaches and be kept in place, this would provide stability. Chris Sturm is also part of Esmark now and could offer help with getting the Vengeance into the Tier 1 elite league. Zieler and Nate are great coaches, but I think they would be better suited at working the younger level and being able to teach solid fundamentals at u12 and below and be a draw for to establish the younger program. I think filling out the rest of the coaches and having a program that has stability and gives the kids different solid coaches over the years would be beneficial. Dorsey would probably be better off at the older age and needs to separate himself from the operational portion of the organization. You need to find an orbitational director for this, I know of a few, but not going to mention them for privacy purposes, but the vengeance has always lacked organization. The Tier 2 organization needs to be separate from pahl as kids will be more inclined to tryout for a team like this instead of it being a team they have played against in the past and have a hatred against. These teams should play and practice like a tier 1 team with expanded play in markets like Cleveland, Columbus, Buffalo and Philly. If done right I could see them as a top tier 2 team in the country that could go to nationals at 14u and higher while the tier 1 should be able to be in the top 10=20 nation wide or higher on a regular basis. But as always you have to many egos and people how profit greatly or want full control over everything. 

 

I watched the last couple years Yurri and Dorsey battle over kids and in the end the kids loose. Esmark needs to figure out what options they have with what Blackbear is doing. Shaha has done some good things, as well as some other tier 2 programs, but can people put egos aside for the greater good, who knows. 

 

 

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What percentage of kids moving to Div.1 would seem like an acceptable amount ?  Do you all realize how hard it is to continue to move up the ladder?  Is there an amount an organization should have to be considered successful?   I'm struggling with following the logic of where this thread has gone.  Is the only bar for claiming success reaching the pros?, Div. 1 commitments, Juniors?  

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1.Why don’t you take a look around at other programs nationwide and see what they do in terms of moving kids on,  to both juniors and college.  Some for a fraction of the cost.   
 

2.Moving up the ladder is difficult sure.  Seems like most other programs of equal and lesser size have a much better idea of how to equip kids for that challenge. 
 

3.More than 17 in 11 years,  that you can definitively say you had a significant hand in.  That number becoming more convoluted when you take into consideration it includes employees kids,  goalies,  and 3 members of one family from West Mifflin. 
 

4.I never really said anything about the pro’s other the posters on the wall are all hornets products and pointing out their success with pros.  My argument is based on the D1 commitments. If you are struggling with where this thread is going then surely you would struggle with why people would be paying upwards of 30k a season for their children to play ice hockey ‘for fun’ or ‘for recreation’.  I’m struggling to understand how you even made that statement in earnest.  If you did. 
 

Strip back the layers until you find transparency into the core of players and families intentions for playing (and paying) in Cranberry and you will find every single one of them has intentions of moving on to junior and or college hockey.  But you already knew that.  They certainly use that as bar for success as they have a player advancement page and just about every other tweet is trying to attach their name to someone who’s moved out of their program. Albeit mostly girls hockey alumni.  
 

What they charge people,  the time commitment required,  14-18 year olds spending their entire day in Cranberry between school then straight to the rink until 8-9 at night is not worth it based on their results.  The cost of the academy,  the season cost,  the travel cost,  even down to needing the kid to eat dinner at the rink every night.  Doesn’t take a mathematician to see what a losing proposition all of that is.  Like I said,  way back in August.  There’s teams in eastern PA playing in a 40 year old rink with leaking roof__ where kids are on the ice 3 nights a week (only) and they outperform Cranberry in player progression. 
 

I mean what more do kids in Cranberry need to do___ get hyperbaric chambers at home to sleep in? 

There is undoubtedly a lot of talent there. Year over year, a ton of talented kids.  More so than what some other areas have to choose from.  Why are the player advancement metrics so skewed in the opposite direction of the other areas that don’t have that talent pool though?  That’s the point. 

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7 hours ago, whatever said:

What percentage of kids moving to Div.1 would seem like an acceptable amount ?  Do you all realize how hard it is to continue to move up the ladder?  Is there an amount an organization should have to be considered successful?   I'm struggling with following the logic of where this thread has gone.  Is the only bar for claiming success reaching the pros?, Div. 1 commitments, Juniors?  

Sending kids into real junior hockey is how I personally measure the success, along with not putting a team together that has a mix of mid level AA & A major players - calling it “AAA”. 

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Outside of player advancement pages that are grasping for straws… this is the most damning evidence against Cranberry.  There’s no disputing this and there’s really no excuse for it.  
 

https://twitter.com/AAHAGlenn/status/1609970697224306689/photo/1

*specifically the first section or photo in upper left hand corner. 

Then research who the largest (by far) program is in the Midam district, with the most amount of kids that play hockey.  
 

 

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I’m sure this won’t be popular, but we can blame organizations, personal interests, politics all we want. In the end, in Pittsburgh (maybe different than some other cities and Canada notably due to municipal rinks and funding), it takes two things for someone to be ‘successful’ as this thread is apparently defining it.
 

First, parents with cash to support private skating lessons, etc. Second, a talented and legit D1 athlete of a kid. I really think we ignore the second. We think if you spend $15k per year from the time your kid is 7 years old, if they don’t make it, it’s someone’s fault other than (1) yours as the parent that funded it or (2) your kid’s lack of legit athletic ability. If that organization brings in a kid from Ontario, LA, or frankly the pens black team when they turn down to 1 team at the pee wee level, it must be a problem with the organization. 
 

PPE has many faults. Other organizations like PPE do as well. What about some PW teams (I won’t name the specific organization I’m referring to this year) that cut 4-5 kids that have been with the program since mites because pens black kids tried out? They got star struck and those kids that got cut went to another organization that beat them early in the year.  Should we bash that org? It’s not just PPE- it’s all levels. It’s naive to think it’s isolated there.
 

I’m not defending it or supporting it. Just highlighting the variables and constants. To expect any organization to turn 50% of the squirt program (who, let’s face it, probably aren’t really the best athletes, just the kids that have had their parents push them to hockey early and forked the cash to have it show at an early age) into D1 commits is unreasonable. 
 

Go ahead- take the top 7 year olds and move them all to one organization. Keep them all together through thick and thin. They’ll likely form great bonds and make great memories. I’m not saying that’s not a good thing. To the contrary actually, what an awesome experience to have as a kid. But to think you’ll turn them into D1 athletes simply because they’re good 7 year old players, to my point, I think at least, is delusional. 

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I haven’t brought the phrase individual success into it until someone brought it up.  There’s many different versions of success in youth hockey.  Sometimes it’s a young kid grinding it out to make a team,  and learn a life long lesson.  I never said if you don’ make juniors,  or D1,  that you are a failure.  I’m simply saying that the hockey program you work for is largely a failure.  Not the kids.  You don’t have nearly the amount of kids making the jump and it shows in every single metric that’s available.  
 

Other Tier 1 organizations absolutely have their problems, politics, scheming etc.  Cranberry has all of that on steroids,  and perform horribly to boot.  It’s one thing to go to a place like,  ohhh let’s say Honeybaked,  and deal with the politics.  But you can’t argue their long term results either.  They move kids along.  Up until the name change this last season.  

You can make an argument that 50% of squirts won’t be D1 athletes in a given group.  For sure.  Who said the team stays the same,  it’s a focus locals and maybe other kids come into the picture later on. 
 

The 06 team in Cranberry lost a few to the Pittsburgh kids playing on Cleveland last year,  they’re currently getting beat consecutively by a group of Pittsburgh kids from Shaha.  Last years 06 pens team What?  2 Pittsburgh players.  This year has 1.  

Why is there literally a mural on the wall about the path to pro hockey with pictures of a mite , to squirt, etc all the way to Sidney Crosby.  All kids in their jerseys until the junior and college hockey player then Crosby.  Don’t tell me the dream isn’t being sold there,  or that the customers don’t have intent on following that path. 

 

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