The Pittsburgh Penguins Elite Discussion

[ChiefKeef]

5 hours ago, nemesis8679 said:

I would like to know where excel  and having to have a catholic education fit in to devoloping a good hockey player? Couldn't just be the money, could it? 

I’ve largely left my personal opinion out of my posts if I don’t have some kind of resource to back it up.  But I’ll tell you right now having your kid on the ice 3-4 hours a day,  working out 2 hours a day,  3 days a week__ being involved in this program from 8am until 8-9pm a night  …. and then an hour and 20 ice time and an hour work out for the 4th day a week (non practice night) is not healthy.  Add trying to keep up with a private education in between all of that. The tagline is that it’s preparing them for junior and college hockey.  No junior or college hockey team,  or pro team including anything and everything leading up to the NHL or European leagues__ does anything close to 3 hours on the ice,  2 hours working out,  then adding in trying to keep up with school between all that.  There are 6 days a month where they don’t have a hockey obligation,  talk to any sports therapist or hell,  a therapist in general,  a pediatrician anyone with qualifications and ask them if they think that’s healthy for a teenagers mental or physical well being.  6 days a month to be a normal kid,  have variety,  spend time with family, and even then you’re probably trying to get school work done on those days. 

It’s a way to fill up ice slots at the rink,  bring in funding to the rink and justify some inflated salaries.  It’s truly disgusting  because they’re doing it knowing it’s way overboard and no in kids best interest.  Then add in the financial part of it for the parents.  It’s borderline criminal to have people thinking this is normal.  It’s not and most other hockey programs around the country,  most of which having reputable results for helping kids into junior,  college and pro hockey aren’t doing this crap. 
 

Then you take into consideration this https://twitter.com/AAHAGlenn/status/1609970697224306689/photo/1 and not only does it make you question if all that is worth it,  it also begs the question of less is more,  and other areas with programs who aren’t demanding all that are having better results as a result.  Kids having more balanced lifestyles.  

 

Edited January 30, 2023 by ChiefKeef

[RJUSHL]

ChiefKeef, tell me how PPE hurt you? There has to be an emotional and personal story behind your endless diatribe. I'm not saying that some of what you are preaching isn't true, but man this is getting exhausting.

Edited January 30, 2023 by RJUSHL

[whatever]

When my son was at Penns Elite for a few years, I believe it was three, his academics suffered.   As parents we didn't realize how much UNTIL he was invited to a Prep school where the Priority was academics.  3 practice days a week he wasn't getting home till close to midnight. Plus all the travel - many missed days etc.  Once he moved to a Prep school his academics were a priority (as they should be).  No way did they have a schedule like the one described above but early mornings, and after school most days.  While I never imagined I would move my kid away from home when he was young - man, I am glad I did.  Once he got to prep school, he realized he was a smart kid.  His confidence soared.  I also believe it's part of the reason he made it to Div.1 hockey.  I know other kids that are better (in my eyes) as a hockey player but didn't have the grades.  When we started at Pens Elite his coach would ask how his grades were - they would chit chat but really no solid intention to emphasize the importance.  Their mission statement said academics was important (as well as developing local kids) .  I guess I am saying all this to point out the fact that the switch to the current program - maybe is to act as a prep school and put more emphasis on academics. If you aren't the top of the top - then you need grades to help pull you up to the next level. 

[Icebucket]

31 minutes ago, RJUSHL said:

ChiefKeef, tell me how PPE hurt you? There has to be an emotional and personal story behind your endless diatribe. I'm not saying that some of what you are preaching is true, but man this is getting exhausting.

I honestly don't think PPE hurt him. I see no other option than he is a higher up at vengeance. Yes, PPE has plenty of problems, but no one would ever push vengeance as hard as he is. Their management is brutal and alpha has been a wild lawless chaotic mess in many cases. PPE needs another club to push them and keep them honest (like Hornets and Pens back in the day), but vengeance definitely not the answer.

[hockeyisgreat]

34 minutes ago, Icebucket said:

I honestly don't think PPE hurt him. I see no other option than he is a higher up at vengeance. Yes, PPE has plenty of problems, but no one would ever push vengeance as hard as he is. Their management is brutal and alpha has been a wild lawless chaotic mess in many cases. PPE needs another club to push them and keep them honest (like Hornets and Pens back in the day), but vengeance definitely not the answer.

So no answers in WPA?  We just continue to complain with no solution in sight!  Please explain how Alpha has been a "wild lawless chaotic mess."  I'm not sure I understand!

[LGP13]

I've never been involved, so excuse my ignorance. Is the excel school and the prep school mandatory to play PPE? Like you can't just try out for the PPE program, make it, and attend the scheduled program functions? How do they force you to do the excel program and Prep school if you aren't interested in them or don't have the money/means to? It seems pretty crazy to me that if a kid was talented enough to go to tryouts and make the team that he would be turned away because him and his family couldn't afford to do Excel/Prep in addition to the lofty PPE tuition? 

[forbin]

22 minutes ago, LGP13 said:

I've never been involved, so excuse my ignorance. Is the excel school and the prep school mandatory to play PPE? Like you can't just try out for the PPE program, make it, and attend the scheduled program functions? How do they force you to do the excel program and Prep school if you aren't interested in them or don't have the money/means to? It seems pretty crazy to me that if a kid was talented enough to go to tryouts and make the team that he would be turned away because him and his family couldn't afford to do Excel/Prep in addition to the lofty PPE tuition? 

It’s “not” mandatory, but it is. They don’t care about the talented kid that can’t afford it. That kid just ends up at Esmark/Vengeance.

[ChiefKeef]

9 hours ago, RJUSHL said:

ChiefKeef, tell me how PPE hurt you? There has to be an emotional and personal story behind your endless diatribe. I'm not saying that some of what you are preaching isn't true, but man this is getting exhausting

Hardly the time of year for spurned parents.  Nor am I associated with any specific programs.  I do know too much though,  clearly… for some of your liking.  Last time I checked this is a discussion forum. Just lamenting the same talking points and concerns that most people have in private.  And I’m replying to others on the topic.  You and the two people who liked your post,  with accounts that are barely used,  can check out another thread and ignore this discussion? 
 

Or are the things being brought up hurting you emotionally,  maybe hitting close to home?  I don’t know. And if not,  is the crap going on in Cranberry not worth having a discussion about?  You seem to have healthy opinions on other clubs so I’m guessing no?  You were borderline pitching a tent over the Predators a few pages back. Start a Preds thread.  Not all of us want to dig into discussion about some local high school players and parents fight. 
 

Feel free to avoid the thread,  my friend. 

Edited January 31, 2023 by ChiefKeef

[ChiefKeef]

4 hours ago, forbin said:

It’s “not” mandatory, but it is. They don’t care about the talented kid that can’t afford it. That kid just ends up at Esmark/Vengeance.

Yes.  There’s many facets to this and they operate on a case by case bases that best suits their needs.  
 

I believe there was an 08 goalie situation where they had two very good goalies.  One left (you don’t say) for a prep school because they just wanted to leave altogether .  The other was going to leave because they didn’t want to do the academy .  So the one goalie was allowed to not participate and probably still operate within the program like a normal kid. That would have been disastrous if both kids left.  
 

I’ve heard stories of kids electing not to do it,  and they didn’t have a recruit lined up,  then that kid basically gets treated like a third rate citizen both on and off the ice.  Being made to get dressed in locker rooms by themselves. You can’t make this crap up.  Then they will spend that season recruiting your replacement,  who will buy in to the program fully. 

That mid am link really pissed some of you off.  This thread is 6 months old.  Now all of the sudden it’s a problem lol 

Edited January 31, 2023 by ChiefKeef

[Saucey]

How has Vengeance helped the situation pointed out by the Mid Am link?  If a parent really wants to progress their kid to high levels, the old advice seems to still remain true...get out of Pittsburgh. And Vengeance doesn't develop imo, they recruit from other programs' ADM programs and PPE leftovers.Who then leave when they get to midget to go to PPE or Esmark if they can. So critical of PPE's mites program when Vengeance doesn't even HAVE one. 

PPE is becoming a stopping point for out of town kids to move on in a year, it seems. It still serves a purpose, just not the one promised to local families. They seem to be making money and not inclined to change a thing. I agree it's not healthy for kids, what they are doing.

Get off the hamster wheel. Find the coach your kid likes who wants to develop all the kids, with a team of good families. Privates over the summer with other sports. Get good grades. Stop giving these clowns your money, unless everything that I said you happen to find at Vengeance that year, then go ahead if you can afford it.

The rah rah rah Vengeance as a viable option to PPE is just....not. ?

[ChiefKeef]

Do they even have the ability to?  Does Esmark?  Everyone and their mother is in Cranberry for the most part.  Not to say there isn’t talented kids at all programs but let’s call a spade a spade into who has what to work with. 

You make a lot of great points and it’s good advice. 

I don’t agree with having to find that one coach, or one off solution.  Which is what most people do.  Yes it’s a better outlet than dealing with the other crap.  I just think it’s well past time that a legit option outside of Cranberry ramp up.  I named a few Vengeance coaches,  who you can’t dispute the pedigree of,  and I pointed out their location and facilities.  Common sense says this would be a starting point.  Not personal bias towards the Vengeance.  I’d be pumping up Esmark’s bantam and midget dealings too if they had a better location.  That rink being where it is can be a deterrence.  Vengeance and Esmark is where the kids who leave generally go to.  Who else is in the mix for those kids?   
 

I suggested way back that people at ALL of the clubs around town are sitting around watching Cranberry do what they do,  pissing and moaning about it then doing nothing about it. And that there needs to be a meeting of minds,  the facility to handle it and probably a rebrand.  

Edited January 30, 2023 by ChiefKeef

[Jkersman01]

40 minutes ago, ChiefKeef said:

Regarding the two day old accounts and obvious employee (hockey2020/Jkers) 

For someone who is claiming to not make statements unless you have facts to back them up, what you got on me? I’m most certainly not an employee. I was just asking questions and giving my thoughts on this topic. Show me one quote of mine where I’m defending the program? I actually agree with a good bit of what you’re saying. You’re just too blinded by rage on this topic to tolerate any comments that aren’t scathing hatred for PPE. I can play that game where I guess who you are too if you want. I’d prefer this not be personal at all, so please don’t make it that. 

[Puck01]

 I go back to PPE is a private organization. Like it or not & I am anything but a fan of PPE for the record. They have a very clear model. We can either complain or be part of the solution. On one hand people complain that BB is coming in & buying all the rinks who will hopefully compete with PPE. On the other hand, we do not like how the PPE does business & it will magically change with 13,000 social media posts..... Ya & the easter bunny is real also!

 All positions should be heard & respected, but this is getting bat shit crazy. There is no organization that is close to competing with PPE because we have week AAA organizations. The Vengeance has the facility but week board, SHAHA has great board but horrible facility, Preds I think they just forgot to drop the 3rd A for some reason & Esmark needs an entire program but still is a pretty tough location to get to for most even if started at a mite age group. Either solve this issue, support BB coming in to compete with PPE or get off your ass & help build something that can compete with PPE that way kids have another option to play high level AAA hockey in PGH! 

[ChiefKeef]

54 minutes ago, Jkersman01 said:

For someone who is claiming to not make statements unless you have facts to back them up, what you got on me? I’m most certainly not an employee. I was just asking questions and giving my thoughts on this topic. Show me one quote of mine where I’m defending the program? I actually agree with a good bit of what you’re saying. You’re just too blinded by rage on this topic to tolerate any comments that aren’t scathing hatred for PPE. I can play that game where I guess who you are too if you want. I’d prefer this not be personal at all, so please don’t make it that. 

Your replies here are largely directed at me.  You are one of the people extenuating this conversation.  I haven’t posted in this topic for like 4 months? Nor was I the one who bumped it to the top again with fresh posts….the receipts are all there….. Hardly blind rage,  I think my posts are articulate and concise.  Your inability to process how someone could have an argument against something you view favorably isn’t my problem. 

For the sake of this degrading any further.  I’m going to continue to have a discussion.  Let’s avoid each other then, yes?  We don’t seem to agree and it’s probably for the best.  When I make a post,  don’t come out of the wood work.  Best of luck to you. 

Edited January 30, 2023 by ChiefKeef

[ChiefKeef]

3 hours ago, Puck01 said:

 I go back to PPE is a private organization. Like it or not & I am anything but a fan of PPE for the record. They have a very clear model. We can either complain or be part of the solution. On one hand people complain that BB is coming in & buying all the rinks who will hopefully compete with PPE. On the other hand, we do not like how the PPE does business & it will magically change with 13,000 social media posts..... Ya & the easter bunny is real also!

 All positions should be heard & respected, but this is getting bat shit crazy. There is no organization that is close to competing with PPE because we have week AAA organizations. The Vengeance has the facility but week board, SHAHA has great board but horrible facility, Preds I think they just forgot to drop the 3rd A for some reason & Esmark needs an entire program but still is a pretty tough location to get to for most even if started at a mite age group. Either solve this issue, support BB coming in to compete with PPE or get off your ass & help build something that can compete with PPE that way kids have another option to play high level AAA hockey in PGH! 

What’s the point of a public discussion forum if we are going to subjugate the topics? 

Maybe parents read the thread about why refs are quitting and they get some honest perspective from people who were in the trenches so to speak.  Maybe some of those people look at their own behaviors in the rink and reconsider. 

Edited January 31, 2023 by ChiefKeef

[ChiefKeef]

https://twitter.com/AAHAGlenn/status/1609970697224306689/photo/1

 

Vengeance, Esmark, Blackbear, the Armstrong Arrows….. I don’t care.  No excuse for the above.  Time for someone else to step up and try their hand with the majority of locals.  

 

Edited January 30, 2023 by ChiefKeef

[Icebucket]

4 hours ago, hockeyisgreat said:

So no answers in WPA?  We just continue to complain with no solution in sight!  Please explain how Alpha has been a "wild lawless chaotic mess."  I'm not sure I understand!

As it stands right now, I don't see anyone who is a viable to push the pens, but Esmark is probably the closest. If Esmark were to actually move to southpointe I could see that being a great option. Otherwise just based solely on location I'd think shaha might be the next best. I don't know much about shaha other that what I know about some of their coaches, but the few coaches I know there are all quality guys.

[Jkersman01]

3 minutes ago, Icebucket said:

As it stands right now, I don't see anyone who is a viable to push the pens, but Esmark is probably the closest. If Esmark were to actually move to southpointe I could see that being a great option. Otherwise just based solely on location I'd think shaha might be the next best. I don't know much about shaha other that what I know about some of their coaches, but the few coaches I know there are all quality guys.

Here’s an option, but requires dominoes. RMU is back next year. Ice at Neville will be tight. Essentially hours before RMU hockey was shut down 2 years ago, they were in cranberry with pens talking about that third sheet where they’d play. Pens back to building 3rd sheet. If RMU moves up there, that frees up a good bit of ice at Neville. Esmark to Neville? If Black Bear ends up giving esmark a reason to move out of New Ken and Southpointe doesn’t get that 2nd sheet in, maybe this could work. Can pull south hills contingent and cranberry contingent? 

[stickboy]

1 hour ago, ChiefKeef said:

https://twitter.com/AAHAGlenn/status/1609970697224306689/photo/1

 

Vengeance, Esmark, Blackbear, the Armstrong Arrows….. I don’t care.  No excuse for the above.  Time for someone else to step up and try their hand with the majority of locals.  

 

Why do you keep posting this like it’s new info. We already had a 2 page thread discussing it in detail.  I guess it didn’t get your attention because PPE wasn’t in the title?

[ChiefKeef]

15 minutes ago, stickboy said:

Why do you keep posting this like it’s new info. We already had a 2 page thread discussing it in detail.  I guess it didn’t get your attention because PPE wasn’t in the title?

https://twitter.com/AAHAGlenn/status/1609970697224306689/photo/1

[stickboy]

Cute

[Saucey]

Or......ha ha ha....quit chasing the extra A and just play the local league. Crazy, I know. At least until Bantam. Put resources back into what already exists. It would be so nice to have a AA league filled top to bottom with AA teams. PAHLs midget program currently has 2. 

It's fun to actually play school hockey and compete for a National banner in PAHL. PIHL actually has built their program up. The televised games, the social media. Don't play 80 games in a year for an independent schedule. Play school and PAHL.  

Really need to see what Blackbear is going to do. I think you are going to continue to see all these faux AAA teams because there are always people chasing. They think their kid has the talent and didn't make the team, they form another. 

But I do think that the market is poised to have a viable alternative to PPE since they don't want the local kids when it counts unless you have the cash. RMU and Sourhpointe are the best locations to do it to make it accessable for everyone around the city.

[RJUSHL]

53 minutes ago, Saucey said:

RMU and Sourhpointe are the best locations to do it to make it accessable for everyone around the city.

If there ever is a legit competitor to PPE in Pittsburgh it will be at one of these two rinks.

But I do agree with some of the other sentiments in this thread; a commitment to local kids is important.

Edited January 31, 2023 by RJUSHL

[aaaahockey]

3 minutes ago, RJUSHL said:

If there ever is a legit competitor to PPE in Pittsburgh it will be at one of these two rinks.

I actually think Ice Castle would have a chance to be a competitor but they would need to totally scrap and revamp their program.  What they are doing now is producing very few competitive teams and they really don't seem to develop the players at all (from what i can see from the outside).  I know several people who have been on (several different) teams.there 3-5 years who constantly complain about it.   Still not sure why they continue to go back but I almost never hear anything good.  

[Saucey]

6 minutes ago, aaaahockey said:

I actually think Ice Castle would have a chance to be a competitor but they would need to totally scrap and revamp their program.  What they are doing now is producing very few competitive teams and they really don't seem to develop the players at all (from what i can see from the outside).  I know several people who have been on (several different) teams.there 3-5 years who constantly complain about it.   Still not sure why they continue to go back but I almost never hear anything good.  

No. It's too hard to get to for a lot of families. It's 45 minutes to an hour in rush hour traffic from the north, and hard driving. That amount of time on the highway is one thing, through city streets, 51 and library road is another.