What's the deal with Esmark?

[RJUSHL]

It's really surprising how Esmark doesn't seem to have a foothold at all with good players in the younger birth years. Even bantam and midget birth years are kind of brutal. What's going on? I thought they were supposed to be the only real competitor to PPE? Is it the location, the rink, or something else? They're just not getting the players. I know someone here will say, "No one cares about peewee hockey!" Well apparently Esmark cares about 12U hockey because they are putting together teams (or at least trying to) at that age.

This is pretty brutal...

2011
Pens
Preds
Vengeance
Esmark

2010
Pens
Vengeance
Preds
Rebellion
Esmark

2009
Pens
Vengeance
Preds
SHAHA
Esmark

2008
Vengeance
Pens
SHAHA
Preds
Esmark

15U
Pens
Esmark
SHAHA
Vengeance
Preds

16U
Pens
SHAHA
Esmark
Preds

Seems like Esmark needs a revamp, or at least re-evaluate their current strategy.

Edited October 24, 2022 by RJUSHL

[hockeyisgreat]

Isn't this their first venture into the market below 14U.  It's most likely just a money maker to supplement their Midget programs.  Remember everyone needs to play AAA to have any self respect and if you give them the team they will come!  By the way this is just my opinion!

[RJUSHL]

23 minutes ago, hockeyisgreat said:

Isn't this their first venture into the market below 14U. 

They've had peewee and bantam teams off and on for five plus years. Maybe longer.

You would think that if they were supposed to be the PPE competitor, kids and families would be flocking there. Vengeance, SHAHA, and Preds are doing better. What is Esmark doing wrong?

Edited October 24, 2022 by RJUSHL

[Pucks11]

17 minutes ago, RJUSHL said:

They've had peewee and bantam teams off and on for five plus years. Maybe longer.

You would think that if they were supposed to be the PPE competitor, kids and families would be flocking there. Vengeance, SHAHA, and Preds are doing better. What is Esmark doing wrong?

They are fairly new at the younger age groups but a BIG part is no one wants to drive out into the middle of nowhere. That rink is not easy to get to. Would you want to drive an extra 30min++ to play AAA faux or not when Vengeance, SHAHA and Preds are all within 10-15min from the city. You could probably get to UPMC faster from the city.

[fafa fohi]

23 minutes ago, Pucks11 said:

They are fairly new at the younger age groups but a BIG part is no one wants to drive out into the middle of nowhere. That rink is not easy to get to. Would you want to drive an extra 30min++ to play AAA faux or not when Vengeance, SHAHA and Preds are all within 10-15min from the city. You could probably get to UPMC faster from the city.

Good lord we are now back with the “AAA faux” bullshit?

Parents will drive their kids an extra 15-20 minutes for a better coaching / development experience if that is what other programs are offering.  

[Ihearthockey]

18 minutes ago, fafa fohi said:

Parents will drive their kids an extra 15-20 minutes for a better coaching / development experience if that is what other programs are offering.  

I think it's this.  A buddy of mine's kid plays in the PW program at Esmark and he acknowledges that even though the team isn't even in the same zip code as the Pens, that his kid is getting tons of ice time and off ice work and education and they added another 20 minutes to their commute this year.  And the team has steadily improved since game 1 which is really what I think it's about at this level.  Looking at the coaching staff at the PW level, you have a couple really established and well respected names there it seems (at least from what I know).  I'm sure somebody will have something to complain about them though.  I know that some of those other programs listed above get one of maybe two ice slots per week and limited off ice workouts and education and even though they're better (now), they aren't developing according to what I've heard from parents in those organizations.  

So I guess to sum up my observations so far at least at the PW level, Esmark underperforming but families are happy with development.  Others are performing slightly better but parents are not happy with the value they are getting for their money.  I'll be interested to see how these stack up on Jan 1.  I think we'll see then if my observations are correct as they may be completely way off base. 

Edit to add that I also believe that the location has a major impact here.  That drive does suck for anybody that isn't East of the city.  I'm not sure what the tryout turnouts were like but if they were sparse, that tells me location is a major factor.  

Edited October 24, 2022 by Ihearthockey

[Pucks11]

17 minutes ago, fafa fohi said:

Good lord we are now back with the “AAA faux” bullshit?

Parents will drive their kids an extra 15-20 minutes for a better coaching / development experience if that is what other programs are offering.  

I wasn't calling them faux just using the quote from all of the others. Okay where you want in my opinion. I know good players that don't like to travel and just play school. Go where you please.

[Duster19]

For 2010, that South Pgh Rebellion is playing Tier 2 PAHL AA and ranked higher than 2010 Esmark?

Would be interesting to see that Esmark 10 team play some PAHL AA teams and see how they match up.  Something tells me that the South Pgh, Aviators 10 team 1, NP and some others in the AA division could beat the Esmark 10 team.  Or be a very close game.

[Ihearthockey]

Just for the heck of it, I wanted to see trending on MHR for the Esmark PW teams.  Esmark 11s certainly has a packed schedule and it looks like they played some high level teams this year (Mercer, Illinois, Regals SCTA, Little Caps) and have not performed very well against them.  They have some solid wins but also perhaps some bad losses.  Looks like they were in Detroit this past weekend and had a pretty respectable showing against teams well above them in MHR and then beat up a weak Compuware team, which you should if you want to be in the discussion.  They only lost to the eventual bracket champion from Canada by 2 goals.   Another thing to note is that this team is 20 games in and have yet to play a home game.  That's a lot of travel that I'm guessing impacts the ability to play well at that age, especially early in the year and especially for what I'm guessing are mostly first year "AAA" players.  But maybe not.  They have a 10 game homestand starting this weekend so we'll see if travel matters.  

The Esmark 10s with a similar story, and they actually won their bracket this past weekend.  It's not the Elite bracket but the AA/AAA bracket but still a solid result nonetheless.  

Again, I'd say let's see how these teams stack up after a couple more months to see if the development story holds up.  

 

 

Edited October 24, 2022 by Ihearthockey

[RJUSHL]

Ok. Sounds like the consensus is that they are falling behind Vengeance, Preds, and SHAHA because of rink location. Maybe more parents are sane than we realize and refuse to make that drive just to play on an Esmark team.

The fact that SHAHA and Preds are outcompeting Esmark for the best kids and are consistently putting together better teams than Esmark just shows you how much of vacuum there is for a Tier 1 type of organization in the south hills. If there was ice available something like that would absolutely kill it. That's really the only way you'll have anything come close to competing with PPE... have a AAA/Tier 1 organization based in the south hills. There just isn't enough ice.

Edited October 24, 2022 by RJUSHL

[Carl Racki]

8 hours ago, Ihearthockey said:

Just for the heck of it, I wanted to see trending on MHR for the Esmark PW teams.  Esmark 11s certainly has a packed schedule and it looks like they played some high level teams this year (Mercer, Illinois, Regals SCTA, Little Caps) and have not performed very well against them.  They have some solid wins but also perhaps some bad losses.  Looks like they were in Detroit this past weekend and had a pretty respectable showing against teams well above them in MHR and then beat up a weak Compuware team, which you should if you want to be in the discussion.  They only lost to the eventual bracket champion from Canada by 2 goals.   Another thing to note is that this team is 20 games in and have yet to play a home game.  That's a lot of travel that I'm guessing impacts the ability to play well at that age, especially early in the year and especially for what I'm guessing are mostly first year "AAA" players.  But maybe not.  They have a 10 game homestand starting this weekend so we'll see if travel matters.  

The Esmark 10s with a similar story, and they actually won their bracket this past weekend.  It's not the Elite bracket but the AA/AAA bracket but still a solid result nonetheless.  

Again, I'd say let's see how these teams stack up after a couple more months to see if the development story holds up.  

 

 

Sounds like you are the spokes person for Esmark.  Not too sure about how well they develope kids at the younger ages.  They started praying on the Pens black kids when Pens decided to do away with their older #2 teams.  Those teams were good for a year or so and seem to fade.  The older birth years at Esmark (Midget)  tend to be better as they get the older players that are tired of Pens (not the Pens #2 players) plus the imports.  

 

SHAHA and Preds have an advantage as I believe there are a lot more ice hockey players in that area.  Esmark, SHAHA, Preds AAA teams look better in the rankings because they play higher ranked teams.  If they all played in PAHL they would most likely drop in the ranking and hey, isn't the ranking the most important thing about youth hockey!! ( That's sarcasm).   Gotta work the system.  Just play really high ranked teams and hang in there so you go up the ladder!!

[Ihearthockey]

6 hours ago, Carl Racki said:

Sounds like you are the spokes person for Esmark.  Not too sure about how well they develope kids at the younger ages.  They started praying on the Pens black kids when Pens decided to do away with their older #2 teams.  Those teams were good for a year or so and seem to fade.  The older birth years at Esmark (Midget)  tend to be better as they get the older players that are tired of Pens (not the Pens #2 players) plus the imports.  

 

SHAHA and Preds have an advantage as I believe there are a lot more ice hockey players in that area.  Esmark, SHAHA, Preds AAA teams look better in the rankings because they play higher ranked teams.  If they all played in PAHL they would most likely drop in the ranking and hey, isn't the ranking the most important thing about youth hockey!! ( That's sarcasm).   Gotta work the system.  Just play really high ranked teams and hang in there so you go up the ladder!!

Think what you want big guy, I did a little bit of homework to support the subject of the thread and I had value to add to the thread since I'm good friends with a parent of a kid in the PW program.  That's how these message board things work if you didn't know.  

Edited October 25, 2022 by Ihearthockey

[RJUSHL]

16 hours ago, Duster19 said:

For 2010, that South Pgh Rebellion is playing Tier 2 PAHL AA and ranked higher than 2010 Esmark?

Looks like their rankings are essentially the same, but South Pgh obviously can't play the ranking game with their PAHL schedule. But looking at how the teams did in Detroit this past weekend, and some previous common games, the 2010 South Pittsburgh team is probably better than the Esmark 2010 team. It is kind of crazy that a PAHL team is better than an Esmark team for the same BY.

I thought this thread would reveal some other issue or bad strategy by Esmark, but so far no one has offered anything. Really seems to just be an issue of a terrible rink location for Esmark and all the Tier 1/AAA organizations are already in the north. The south has more/better hockey talent and no AAA only organizations, and so that seems to be why SHAHA, Preds, and even South PGH can build better teams than Esmark.

Seems like the Esmark name is fading. Are they going to adapt or is some other organization going to come in and fill the void?

Edited October 25, 2022 by RJUSHL

[Saucey]

1 hour ago, Ihearthockey said:

That's how these message board things work if you didn't know.  

Wait, I thought the way that they work is you make up a bunch of inflammatory stuff and then name call everyone who doesn't agree with you...

 

[RJUSHL]

1 hour ago, Ihearthockey said:

Think what you want big guy, I did a little bit of homework to support the subject of the thread and I had value to add to the thread since I'm good friends with a parent of a kid in the PW program.  That's how these message board things work if you didn't know.  

A lot of people on this forum like to make a leap and claim to know something about people that colors their opinion. "Sounds like we found the (PPE, Esmark, Vengeance, AAA, AA, Faux AAA, old, young, disgruntled) guy....."

It gets old and it prevents people from actually sharing their opinion. Glad you shared your opinion. 

Edited October 25, 2022 by RJUSHL

[RJUSHL]

7 hours ago, Carl Racki said:

SHAHA and Preds have an advantage as I believe there are a lot more ice hockey players in that area.

I agree with this. But Preds and SHAHA have rinks that are 10 minutes from each other so they are competing with each other for the same kids and they STILL are outperforming Esmark. It's wild.

The only way to have a real competitor to PPE is to have one legit Tier1/AAA only organization the south hills. You get the best of the south hills kids from SHAHA, Preds, Lebo, South PGH, and the insane ones that are driving to New Ken and Alpha 3-4 times per week. This would absolutely kill it. The problem is there is already an ice shortage in the south hills so unless something changes this won't happen.

[Ihearthockey]

8 minutes ago, RJUSHL said:

I agree with this. But Preds and SHAHA have rinks that are 10 minutes from each other so they are competing with each other for the same kids and they STILL are outperforming Esmark. It's wild.

Lebo too correct?  Aren't they all within spitting distance?

[Jkersman01]

2 hours ago, RJUSHL said:

the 2010 South Pittsburgh team is probably better than the Esmark 2010 team. It is kind of crazy that a PAHL team is better than an Esmark team for the same BY.

And Mt. Lebo beat this South Pgh team this year. Not saying they're better- I wouldn't know. Plus its just one game. Aviators have a very good 12U AA team as well that, using the logic I quoted above, if accurate, could very likely hang with Esmark. 

Edited October 25, 2022 by Jkersman01

[RMU Alum]

36 minutes ago, RJUSHL said:

Looks like their rankings are essentially the same, but South Pgh obviously can't play the ranking game with their PAHL schedule. But looking at how the teams did in Detroit this past weekend, and some previous common games, the 2010 South Pittsburgh team is probably better than the Esmark 2010 team. It is kind of crazy that a PAHL team is better than an Esmark team for the same BY.

I thought this thread would reveal some other issue or bad strategy by Esmark, but so far no one has offered anything. Really seems to just be an issue of a terrible rink location for Esmark and all the Tier 1/AAA organizations are already in the north. The south has more/better hockey talent and no AAA only organizations, and so that seems to be why SHAHA, Preds, and even South PGH can build better teams than Esmark.

Seems like the Esmark name is fading. Are they going to adapt or is some other organization going to come in and fill the void?

To clear up this past weekend in Detroit the Esmark 2010s won the AAA (not to be confused with AAA Elite) division over the Ohio BlueJackets (division also had the Preds). SP and Aviators lost in the 3rd division - AA bracket. Vengenance went 2-3 in the AAA Elite division and also had an awesome upset win over the #2 ranked Little Caesars Team. They also had a kid dressed that didn't get a shift DURING PEEWEE. SouthPitt 2010s have 5 players that played AAA last year so should be a top AA team that can win some games against AAA for sure.

I can confirm that there were interested players that made the 2011 team and parents decided not to make the drive and went to Preds and Pens Black instead. Esmark is one of the only teams that allows 'playing up' at the younger ages if the kid is qualified - especially first year. The 2011s have multiple 2012s that will fall back next year. By second year there is only one 2011 Defenseman on the 2010 team.

For bad strategy that hurts them:

- To keep costs lower they ALWAYS carry a 15 skater + 2 goalie roster at a minimum (See Vengeance model above). Most PeeWee teams have lower skater numbers and try to add bodies when they get to checking. The bottom pairs and bottom lines can impact W/L

- Announcing coaches and tryout dates late - this was a big issue last year at the younger ages

- Very little to no Social Media

- Not advertising the differentiaters - Ice time, gym, video review, 3-day camp kickoff, cheap summer ice, organized scheduling, cost compared to other AAA orgs, Coaching staff through the organization with tons of experience (CJ, Sluggo, Yuri, Dave, Mish - with no dads - except Nate that came from Pens 2010s) 

- Location - I don't think people realize New Ken is only 15 from Alpha. 45 min from Cranberry

 

[RJUSHL]

44 minutes ago, RMU Alum said:

To clear up this past weekend in Detroit the Esmark 2010s won the AAA (not to be confused with AAA Elite) division over the Ohio BlueJackets (division also had the Preds). SP and Aviators lost in the 3rd division - AA bracket. Vengenance went 2-3 in the AAA Elite division and also had an awesome upset win over the #2 ranked Little Caesars Team. They also had a kid dressed that didn't get a shift DURING PEEWEE. SouthPitt 2010s have 5 players that played AAA last year so should be a top AA team that can win some games against AAA for sure.

I can confirm that there were interested players that made the 2011 team and parents decided not to make the drive and went to Preds and Pens Black instead. Esmark is one of the only teams that allows 'playing up' at the younger ages if the kid is qualified - especially first year. The 2011s have multiple 2012s that will fall back next year. By second year there is only one 2011 Defenseman on the 2010 team.

For bad strategy that hurts them:

- To keep costs lower they ALWAYS carry a 15 skater + 2 goalie roster at a minimum (See Vengeance model above). Most PeeWee teams have lower skater numbers and try to add bodies when they get to checking. The bottom pairs and bottom lines can impact W/L

- Announcing coaches and tryout dates late - this was a big issue last year at the younger ages

- Very little to no Social Media

- Not advertising the differentiaters - Ice time, gym, video review, 3-day camp kickoff, cheap summer ice, organized scheduling, cost compared to other AAA orgs, Coaching staff through the organization with tons of experience (CJ, Sluggo, Yuri, Dave, Mish - with no dads - except Nate that came from Pens 2010s) 

- Location - I don't think people realize New Ken is only 15 from Alpha. 45 min from Cranberry

 

Very interesting observations. Seems like a number of those things are correctable and that could help some, but location still seems to be the biggest issue. People are staying in the south hills more and more and playing in "lesser" organizations than Esmark. To me that's the main reason why Preds and SHAHA are starting to consistently put together better teams than Esmark. 

[Corsi]

10 minutes ago, RJUSHL said:

Very interesting observations. Seems like a number of those things are correctable and that could help some, but location still seems to be the biggest issue. People are staying in the south hills more and more and playing in "lesser" organizations than Esmark. To me that's the main reason why Preds and SHAHA are starting to consistently put together better teams than Esmark. 

100% true from what I've heard from parents both at Preds and SHAHA.  According to some parents, their players have been asked to come to Esmark, but the parents wouldn't consider it because of the location of the rink.  I feel like that makes perfect sense, why make that drive if the level of play, and development are all equal when you can do it and only have to drive 15-20 minutes if you are already in the South Hills.  In a "perfect world", Preds and SHAHA would come together and form a South Hills based "AAA" program, which could compete with anyone in the area based off of how much talent is already present in that area of the city.  

[hockeyisgreat]

17 hours ago, RJUSHL said:

Ok. Sounds like the consensus is that they are falling behind Vengeance, Preds, and SHAHA because of rink location. Maybe more parents are sane than we realize and refuse to make that drive just to play on an Esmark team.

The fact that SHAHA and Preds are outcompeting Esmark for the best kids and are consistently putting together better teams than Esmark just shows you how much of vacuum there is for a Tier 1 type of organization in the south hills. If there was ice available something like that would absolutely kill it. That's really the only way you'll have anything come close to competing with PPE... have a AAA/Tier 1 organization based in the south hills. There just isn't enough ice.

Isn't that what the Preds AAA teams are trying to be?  Seems to me that there are to many AAA teams in the South Hills now.  If they all combined to one team it might work!

[hockeyisgreat]

2 minutes ago, Corsi said:

100% true from what I've heard from parents both at Preds and SHAHA.  According to some parents, their players have been asked to come to Esmark, but the parents wouldn't consider it because of the location of the rink.  I feel like that makes perfect sense, why make that drive if the level of play, and development are all equal when you can do it and only have to drive 15-20 minutes if you are already in the South Hills.  In a "perfect world", Preds and SHAHA would come together and form a South Hills based "AAA" program, which could compete with anyone in the area based off of how much talent is already present in that area of the city.  

Of course if they were really good players, parents with the best kids would travel to have their kid play on a better team. Just like they travel to PPE and Esmark at Midgets!

[forbin]

1 hour ago, RMU Alum said:

- Location - I don't think people realize New Ken is only 15 from Alpha. 45 min from Cranberry

 

This is a good point however, getting from anywhere in the south hills to new ken at rush hour for an evening practice 3x a week would be the worst possible commute I could imagine in the Pittsburgh area. I mean you're looking at 1.5hrs one way on a good day, no accidents or weather issues. No program would be worth that for me personally.

[RJUSHL]

7 minutes ago, hockeyisgreat said:

Isn't that what the Preds AAA teams are trying to be?  Seems to me that there are to many AAA teams in the South Hills now.  If they all combined to one team it might work!

As dumb as it may be, there is a big difference in the mind of players and parents between a AAA team at a PAHL type organization and a AAA/Tier 1 only organization. 

They want a separate website, different jerseys, and their own organization page on MHR with one team per BY to build up the organization ranking.

That’s why it’s so surprising that SHAHA and Preds are outcompeting Esmark, even without those things I mentioned above. If there was a AAA/Tier 1 org in the South Hills, it would absolutely kill it.

That’s really the only chance to have a true PPE competitor in Pittsburgh. And if they did it right with a stated goal of developing Pittsburgh area kids and also not forcing some hockey-based academy on the kids, that would help them even more. 

Edited October 25, 2022 by RJUSHL