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What's the deal with Esmark?


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1 minute ago, forbin said:

This is a good point however, getting from anywhere in the south hills to new ken at rush hour for an evening practice 3x a week would be the worst possible commute I could imagine in the Pittsburgh area. I mean you're looking at 1.5hrs one way on a good day, no accidents or weather issues. No program would be worth that for me personally.

Especially as long as Route 28 is torn up.  That road is always under construction and it just keeps getting worse!

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2 minutes ago, RJUSHL said:

As dumb as it may be, there is a big difference in the mind of players and parents between a AAA team at a PAHL type organization and a AAA/Tier 1 only organization. 

They want a separate website, different jerseys, and their own organization page on MHR with one team per BY to build up the organization ranking.

That’s why it’s so surprising that SHAHA and Preds are outcompeting Esmark, even without those things I mentioned above. If there was a AAA/Tier 1 org in the South Hills, it would absolutely kill it. 

I am sure the powers that be at BB are listening and are aware of this.

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3 hours ago, RJUSHL said:

You get the best of the south hills kids from SHAHA, Preds, Lebo, South PGH, and the insane ones that are driving to New Ken and Alpha 3-4 times per week

Would you get the best kids?

Or would you get the ones whom are willing to pay for all "the extra" like the Coaches personal gym and/or private lessons?

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17 minutes ago, sadday4hockey said:

Would you get the best kids?

Or would you get the ones whom are willing to pay for all "the extra" like the Coaches personal gym and/or private lessons?

Yes, I feel like you would get the "best kids".  I would think that most of those kids are already getting quality coaching/development and doing the lessons/skills stuff on some level.  The difference is that the kids in the South Hills wouldn't be traveling all the way to Cranberry or New Ken anymore, assuming you could get Lebo, Preds, and SHAHA all to "play nice together".  I feel like the consensus on this conversation has been that the South Hills has enough talent to support a "AAA" program which could be successful in that area if those organizations worked together to build it and there was ice available for each BY team.  

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1 hour ago, hockeyisgreat said:

Printscape would be a good place for BB to start their Tier 1 program!

Printscape is a great location with easy access to 79 and 19. And with the new highway it's easy to get out to Robinson/Moon and anywhere west. But there just isn't enough ice time for something like this. South PGH is always limited on the number of teams it can have because of ice time. Lots of school programs play there as well so as soon as the end of September rolls around, there is no extra ice available. Same with Lebo and the YMCA in Bethel.

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8 minutes ago, RJUSHL said:

Printscape is a great location with easy access to 79 and 19. And with the new highway it's easy to get out to Robinson/Moon and anywhere west. But there just isn't enough ice time for something like this. South PGH is always limited on the number of teams it can have because of ice time. Lots of school programs play there as well so as soon as the end of September rolls around, there is no extra ice available. Same with Lebo and the YMCA in Bethel.

A heavily rumored (and all but confirmed) 2nd sheet at printscape would help that out quite a bit. 

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1 hour ago, sadday4hockey said:

Would you get the best kids?

Or would you get the ones whom are willing to pay for all "the extra" like the Coaches personal gym and/or private lessons?

I think you would get the best kids. Even though Esmark is kind of failing to get the really good kids (for some of the reasons mentioned in this thread) there are still a lot of kids from the South Hills driving to Cranberry for PPE and to Alpha for the Vengeance. Those two programs generally have much better teams than the AAA SHAHA, Preds, and occasional Lebo AAA teams.

You have Pens, Vengeance, and Esmark all lined up across the north of the city, meanwhile it's pretty safe to say that there are more players and more talent in the South Hills. It's for sure deeper. And it's becoming pretty clear that families of the better kids are willing to drive to Cranberry, maybe Harmarville, but not really New Ken anymore. That's the reason SHAHA and Preds have better teams than Esmark. If you give those South Hills families a legit Tier 1 program, PPE would be just fine and it would hurt Vengeance some, but you could finally have a real PPE competitor.

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2 minutes ago, forbin said:

A heavily rumored (and all but confirmed) 2nd sheet at printscape would help that out quite a bit. 

Seems like everyone has been hearing that for a few years now. It would make sense, but I'm skeptical it will happen. Seems like Black Bear just keeps acquiring other rinks instead of investing in their current properties.

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Just an idea...but with Black Bear owning so many rinks in the area...Why not a hybrid location model like other cities like Detroit have worked out. Sure you have a "home rink" for games with all the branding but there is no reason a Black Bear AAA team couldn't set up practice ice slots at Southpoint/Delmont/PIA/Youngstown/Rostraver on a consistent basis and just play home games at one rink. 

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3 minutes ago, RMU Alum said:

Just an idea...but with Black Bear owning so many rinks in the area...Why not a hybrid location model like other cities like Detroit have worked out. Sure you have a "home rink" for games with all the branding but there is no reason a Black Bear AAA team couldn't set up practice ice slots at Southpoint/Delmont/PIA/Youngstown/Rostraver on a consistent basis and just play home games at one rink. 

Sounds like a good plan to me!

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1 hour ago, hockeydad412 said:

I’m more curious to see how the 2010 V team plays out with all the problems going on with that team and coach and organization. I heard 2 players already left and another 2 or 3 are going to leave. They don’t even have an assistant coach. I heard all the parents wanted the head coach out and the organization just doesn’t care becuase they are not the 8s or 9s. Their 10 manager stepped down as manager becuase he didn’t want to deal with the hurricane that was starting to happen. V is supposedly building some venue for the teams to train and it was scheduled to be done in July and it’s still not ready. Ha what a joke. Glad we are not there becuase it’s a huge mess from what I keep hearing. 

I heard that the sky was blue, I heard that the grass was green, I heard that farts smell, I heard that some fingers are longer than others, I heard a cow go moo, I heard that a duck goes quack, I heard that 7 ate 9, supposedly Debra in 3rd period forgot her homework. Jesus Christ dude you sound like a 13yr old girl. I bet the "V" (as you put it ) are happy that you are not a part of their organization as well. Gossip Queen!

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4 hours ago, RJUSHL said:

Seems like Black Bear just keeps acquiring other rinks instead of investing in their current properties.

This ^^^^^

I say the only way they add it is for the main tenants to:

A) Help finance the initial capital investment and

B) Have contracts signed that go out far enough to cover the remaining debt and provide profit

 

It's my understanding that their preferred MO for acquiring facilities is for the owners to basically hold the note and get yearly payments plus a percentage of the "annual profits" which if the property doesn't "show a profit" then no percentage.

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17 minutes ago, sadday4hockey said:

This ^^^^^

I say the only way they add it is for the main tenants to:

A) Help finance the initial capital investment and

B) Have contracts signed that go out far enough to cover the remaining debt and provide profit

 

It's my understanding that their preferred MO for acquiring facilities is for the owners to basically hold the note and get yearly payments plus a percentage of the "annual profits" which if the property doesn't "show a profit" then no percentage.

Is the sale price guaranteed?  

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Wow!!! That dude didn't even last as long as Liz Truss.

Pucks, not sure if it was your doing solely, but Kudos for doing your part.

 

4 hours ago, RMU Alum said:

Black Bear AAA team couldn't set up practice ice slots at Southpoint/Delmont/PIA/Youngstown/Rostraver on a consistent basis and just play home games at one rink. 

Here's a link to google maps since you are either not from Pittsburgh or failed geography miserably.

https://www.google.com/maps/dir/Printscape+Arena+at+Southpointe,+114+Southpointe+Blvd,+Canonsburg,+PA+15317/Palmer+Imaging+Arena,+Center+Ice+Drive,+Delmont,+PA/@40.276463,-80.1488322,10z/data=!3m1!4b1!4m14!4m13!1m5!1m1!1s0x8834543f9ffc979d:0x304d785227507213!2m2!1d-80.1619184!2d40.2776737!1m5!1m1!1s0x8834c5e4035d4a8f:0xe88f71f8cf2eca85!2m2!1d-79.5764089!2d40.4009963!3e0

Let's say I live in Peter's Twp and have a player on the 2010 Rebellion. Next year, BB takes this model and runs with it. I'm thrilled for the opportunity for my kid so close to home. Except, I find out that the 2010 team will practice one day a week at Palmer and one at PIA but the great news is that they'll play 15 games at Printscape!! Which is about the same number of home games every PAHL team plays.

4 hours ago, hockeyisgreat said:

Sounds like a good plan to me!

And for you, living in Penn Trafford. You get to practice one night at Palmer, but the other night at Youngstown and.......... oh, by the way all of your games are at Printscape.

https://www.google.com/maps/dir/Palmer+Imaging+Arena,+Center+Ice+Drive,+Delmont,+PA/Deep+Freeze+Ice+Arena,+McClurg+Road,+Youngstown,+OH/@40.7118709,-80.6794942,9z/data=!3m1!4b1!4m14!4m13!1m5!1m1!1s0x8834c5e4035d4a8f:0xe88f71f8cf2eca85!2m2!1d-79.5764089!2d40.4009963!1m5!1m1!1s0x8833fbae311ff959:0xa57535721674579f!2m2!1d-80.6488194!2d40.996755!3e0

Palmer to Deep Freeze is under 80 miles one way and won't cost you much in TP tolls as long as you have an EZ Pass.

 

 

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Yea I agree, the idea of playing on a team that practices at PIA, Delmont, and Printscape is pretty crazy. That kind of defeats the purpose as to why Esmark is failing (location the primary reason) at building good teams and falling behind Preds and SHAHA on a consistent basis.

Some people seem pretty convinced about the long-rumored second sheet at Printscape. I remain skeptical until someone posts on here that they saw the construction crews staging equipment or working. Also Printscape has the sport court booked up like crazy in the summer months with fishing expos, reptile expos, basketball tournaments, MMA fights, etc. That has to be a big money maker. Only way it makes sense is if they would have it be convertible, with ice for 8 months and sport court during the summer months. Not sure how difficult that is but Printscape is a pretty nice venue and it would make sense to have something like that.

But if Printscape does add a second sheet, how much do you think that changes the hockey landscape in the South Hills?

I think people on here are right, if they added a second sheet I think Black Bear would start a Tier 1 program out of that rink. It makes so much sense it's almost painfully obvious. May finally have something that can approach PPE in terms of consistent competitiveness if they can sell the South Hills kids on the opportunity and market the thing correctly.

Edited by RJUSHL
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On 10/24/2022 at 1:03 PM, RJUSHL said:

It's really surprising how Esmark doesn't seem to have a foothold at all with good players in the younger birth years. Even bantam and midget birth years are kind of brutal. What's going on? I thought they were supposed to be the only real competitor to PPE? Is it the location, the rink, or something else? They're just not getting the players. I know someone here will say, "No one cares about peewee hockey!" Well apparently Esmark cares about 12U hockey because they are putting together teams (or at least trying to) at that age.

This is pretty brutal...

2011
Pens
Preds
Vengeance
Esmark

2010
Pens
Vengeance
Preds
Rebellion
Esmark

2009
Pens
Vengeance
Preds
SHAHA
Esmark

2008
Vengeance
Pens
SHAHA
Preds
Esmark

15U
Pens
Esmark
SHAHA
Vengeance
Preds

16U
Pens
SHAHA
Esmark
Preds

Seems like Esmark needs a revamp, or at least re-evaluate their current strategy.

You left out 18U - not to mention there are Pahl AA teams with their “weak” schedule ranked higher than a team like the preds. That’s embarrassing. These Pahl teams are on the heals of the vengeance. Gilmour is not once what it was, it’s glorified aa. SSA is no different than  a Pahl AA program these days.
 

Keep telling us about the extra icetime, coaching etc. it’s working out real well ffs! 

 

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31 minutes ago, Danner27 said:

You left out 18U

I did leave out 18U. My point was that Esmark is slipping and losing traction with younger BYs and I wanted to get some perspectives about why this is happening. I don't think anyone is saying that Esmark is a bad program, they just have some big hurdles to overcome because of their location. As RMU Alum pointed out, there are also some other things they could be doing better. But right now, except at the highest age groups, they are losing out big time to PPE, Vengeance, and surprisingly even SHAHA and Preds for many BYs.

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I think there is some perception out there that, like Pens, you get replaced with non-Pittsburgh billeting at the older levels. In this case Russian/Eastern Euro kids.  I'm not sure to what extent that is true as I don't have the rosters but I do think most of the teams end up with a number of them.   

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1 hour ago, RJUSHL said:

I did leave out 18U. My point was that Esmark is slipping and losing traction with younger BYs and I wanted to get some perspectives about why this is happening. I don't think anyone is saying that Esmark is a bad program, they just have some big hurdles to overcome because of their location. As RMU Alum pointed out, there are also some other things they could be doing better. But right now, except at the highest age groups, they are losing out big time to PPE, Vengeance, and surprisingly even SHAHA and Preds for many BYs.

I think if you look historically the younger teams have not been around as long as the Midget programs!  2019-20 they only had Midget teams. Then they slowly started adding till they have a full compliment now.  As far as I know they didn't really even advertise the younger teams last year. Just from my limited research. Give them a year or two to bring in some younger Russians and we will see how good they become.  I'm really kind of surprised they didn't find more Ukrainian refugees.

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