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What's the deal with Esmark?


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1 hour ago, RJUSHL said:

I did leave out 18U. My point was that Esmark is slipping and losing traction with younger BYs and I wanted to get some perspectives about why this is happening. I don't think anyone is saying that Esmark is a bad program, they just have some big hurdles to overcome because of their location. As RMU Alum pointed out, there are also some other things they could be doing better. But right now, except at the highest age groups, they are losing out big time to PPE, Vengeance, and surprisingly even SHAHA and Preds for many BYs.

I’ll be the first admit esmark location is awful. Don’t go into the sheetz after dark. There is a reason they installed black lights in the bathroom years back. 
 

midget - PEE > Esmark > everyone else it doesn’t matter faux aaa to Pahl aa all the same. 

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22 minutes ago, aaaahockey said:

I think there is some perception out there that, like Pens, you get replaced with non-Pittsburgh billeting at the older levels. In this case Russian/Eastern Euro kids.  I'm not sure to what extent that is true as I don't have the rosters but I do think most of the teams end up with a number of them.   

It’s not really true. Look at esmark’s 16’s & 18’s over the last 5 years or so. Each team has 2, sometimes 3 max euro players out of 20. They don’t kick locals to the curb for these players, in my kids days they would take 16 skaters at tryouts not 18 knowing they had 2 coming over. 

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20 minutes ago, Danner27 said:

midget - PEE > Esmark > everyone else it doesn’t matter faux aaa to Pahl aa all the same. 

We'll see if that remains true over the next few years. I think they've lost too much momentum with the younger years for them to just assume that they'll all of a sudden add all these good players at midget.

We'll see next year. 2008s will be enter their midget minor year. You really think all of a sudden add a bunch of 08s from the #6 Vengeance (with tons of South Hills kids) or #55 SHAHA (full of South Hills kids) to join a #119 Esmark 08 team in New Ken? I highly doubt it.

It's one thing to say that only Esmark and PPE matter at the midgets, but it's another thing completely for it to be actually true. PPE certainly matters. Not so sure Esmark will anymore.

Edited by RJUSHL
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Esmark did pretty well at Midgets for a long time without any younger level teams.  They usually took kids that got cut at PPE or where the best players on AA PAHL teams.  They did a good job of finding them. Now they have a little more competition starting at the 06 Birth year.  If you recall they didn't even have an 06 team last year and this year they have a decent midget team. They recruit pretty well.

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3 hours ago, aaaahockey said:

I think there is some perception out there that, like Pens, you get replaced with non-Pittsburgh billeting at the older levels. In this case Russian/Eastern Euro kids.  I'm not sure to what extent that is true as I don't have the rosters but I do think most of the teams end up with a number of them.   

Whether it is true or not, this perception definitely exists with Pens Elite at least. And they don't need to come from Eastern Europe - Detroit is far enough.

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5 hours ago, RJUSHL said:

We'll see if that remains true over the next few years. I think they've lost too much momentum with the younger years for them to just assume that they'll all of a sudden add all these good players at midget.

We'll see next year. 2008s will be enter their midget minor year. You really think all of a sudden add a bunch of 08s from the #6 Vengeance (with tons of South Hills kids) or #55 SHAHA (full of South Hills kids) to join a #119 Esmark 08 team in New Ken? I highly doubt it.

It's one thing to say that only Esmark and PPE matter at the midgets, but it's another thing completely for it to be actually true. PPE certainly matters. Not so sure Esmark will anymore.

Look, I know a lot of Tenders and draft picks never work out. Some are complete bs BUT look how many kids got placed into real junior hockey from last years Esmark U18 team. Last years  Vengance ZERO. predators ZERO. Icemen ZERO. 
 
So yes, being at esnark matters. Not as much as ppe but it still does. Could that change ? Maybe, but Yuri & Dave have many connections in real junior hockey, they do get their players in front of the right people. 

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2 hours ago, Danner27 said:

Look, I know a lot of Tenders and draft picks never work out. Some are complete bs BUT look how many kids got placed into real junior hockey from last years Esmark U18 team. Last years  Vengance ZERO. predators ZERO. Icemen ZERO. 
 
So yes, being at esnark matters. Not as much as ppe but it still does. Could that change ? Maybe, but Yuri & Dave have many connections in real junior hockey, they do get their players in front of the right people. 

“Being at Esmark matters.”  Posters here have laid out where Esmark currently lies at each level.  One of the guys you mention?  His team is ranked 45th at Tier 1 and 5th in MidAm out of ten teams.  Call me underwhelmed.

In prior posts on this forum you said things become important for players at the checking level.  

Then it was U16.

Now it is only U18.

Keep moving those goal posts.

If a player plays in the right tournaments / showcases and is of higher level talent, he will get noticed.

 

Edited by fafa fohi
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2 hours ago, fafa fohi said:

“Being at Esmark matters.”  Posters here have laid out where Esmark currently lies at each level.  One of the guys you mention?  His team is ranked 45th at Tier 1 and 5th in MidAm out of ten teams.  Call me underwhelmed.

In prior posts on this forum you said things become important for players at the checking level.  

Then it was U16.

Now it is only U18.

Keep moving those goal posts.

If a player plays in the right tournaments / showcases and is of higher level talent, he will get noticed.

 

ok we know your kid plays for shaha or whatever. Keep thinking tournaments get a player noticed, they don’t. Leauge showcases & camps are what does it along with your coaches having contacts watch - push a player, or you can higher an advisor to put your kid in some camps for a look. The only tournament a player not on someone’s radar will have a chance to get a look is the district tournement when scouts and teams are there to see their current recruits. 

U15 is when it starts to matter - U18 is a players last chance. 

Edited by Danner27
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3 hours ago, sadday4hockey said:

How many and where?

And did they survive the final roster cuts?

Taking a quick look (I’ll save you all the tenders and drafts) - kids that “made it” to a real junior team - stuck and playing.  

Esmark U18

2021-22 - SIX

2020-21 - FIVE

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11 hours ago, hockeyisgreat said:

I think if you look historically the younger teams have not been around as long as the Midget programs!  2019-20 they only had Midget teams. Then they slowly started adding till they have a full compliment now.  As far as I know they didn't really even advertise the younger teams last year. Just from my limited research. Give them a year or two to bring in some younger Russians and we will see how good they become.  I'm really kind of surprised they didn't find more Ukrainian refugees.

They started building younger teams by recruiting the Pens black kids once Pens did away with their teams.  That is where the vast majority of the 2008, 2009, 2010 Esmark kids came from.  Those teams have started to drop off the last year or two.

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54 minutes ago, Saucey said:

I don't remember Esmark ever being a huge draw in the younger levels. It was midget up.

Looks like SHAHA is the bigger draw right now for 2006s (midget). 

Things don’t look good for 2008s either as they enter midget next year. 

Edited by RJUSHL
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11 hours ago, Danner27 said:

ok we know your kid plays for shaha or whatever. Keep thinking tournaments get a player noticed, they don’t. Leauge showcases & camps are what does it along with your coaches having contacts watch - push a player, or you can higher an advisor to put your kid in some camps for a look. The only tournament a player not on someone’s radar will have a chance to get a look is the district tournement when scouts and teams are there to see their current recruits. 

U15 is when it starts to matter - U18 is a players last chance. 

I said “showcases” in my post - do you need a direct quote?  “If a player plays in the right tournaments / showcases and is of higher level talent, he will get noticed.”

Oh never mind.  

Edited by fafa fohi
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9 hours ago, Danner27 said:

along with your coaches having contacts

Yes.  This ^^^ is very true and very important.  You can have a great camp or tournament or showcase in front of scouts, but there are a zillion other players in the field as good as you.  It is sad to say, but no matter how good you are, to get to the next level, you also need references from connected people.  And even then, with good performance and good references, you STILL need a little luck.  So, to all these one-off collections of birth-year superstars at PAHL orgs, let me say: if your coach does not have relationships at the tier II level in junior or NCAA D-I, you are already a few steps behind on your path to junior hockey.  

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30 minutes ago, Jack Handey said:

Yes.  This ^^^ is very true and very important.  You can have a great camp or tournament or showcase in front of scouts, but there are a zillion other players in the field as good as you.  It is sad to say, but no matter how good you are, to get to the next level, you also need references from connected people.  And even then, with good performance and good references, you STILL need a little luck.  So, to all these one-off collections of birth-year superstars at PAHL orgs, let me say: if your coach does not have relationships at the tier II level in junior or NCAA D-I, you are already a few steps behind on your path to junior hockey.  

This is true but things are changing a bit. Easier now than ever with rankings/video for junior coaches to find the best players, no matter where they are. They want to win above all else. I think these connections matter less and less. Too many jobs on the line to start handing out favors just because you’re buddies with a guy. Money still speaks though.

But I guarantee you there is a kid on SHAHA 06 who is being consistently contacted and he’s weighing options and considering the best path forward. A lesser player on the Esmark 06 team isn’t going to have some huge leg up because his coach knows a couple Tier II junior coaches. 

Edited by RJUSHL
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1 hour ago, fafa fohi said:

I said “showcases” in my post - do you need a direct quote?  “If a player plays in the right tournaments / showcases and is of higher level talent, he will get noticed.”

Do you need a DIRECT quote ? 
I said LEAUGE showcase aka the USHL, NAHL etc. I’m not taking about some bs youth tournement that gets a manufacturers name on it and they call it showcase. 

Edited by Danner27
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15 minutes ago, RJUSHL said:

This is true but things are changing a bit. Easier now than ever with rankings/video for junior coaches to find the best players, no matter where they are. They want to win above all else. I think these connections matter less and less. Too many jobs on the line to start handing out favors just because you’re buddies with a guy. Money still speaks though.

But I guarantee you there is a kid on SHAHA 06 who is being consistently contacted and he’s weighing options and considering the best path forward. A lesser player on the Esmark 06 team isn’t going to have some huge leg up because his coach knows a couple Tier II junior coaches. 

That lesser player might not have a huge leg up but he might get a few coaches to look at him because of Esmarks connections. Ultimately it comes down to ability and desire no matter where they play.  I'll be really interested to see what happens to that 06 SHAHA team down the road. Will they stick together through U18 or is this their last year.  The core of that team has played together from U10 with the same Coach.  Pretty unique in this day and age!

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40 minutes ago, Danner27 said:

I said LEAUGE showcase aka the USHL, NAHL etc. I’m not taking about some bs youth tournement that gets a manufacturers name on it and they call it showcase. 

Bro you are so combative on this thread - why?  Do you think I was referring to some kind of jamboree in Cleveland?

For heavens sake and everyone else's here - move on.

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With the way that the game is going now, if you are playing at a high level, you are going to be seen.  Please know, by "seen" I mean, somebody is going to look at you as a player and say, "this kid can play" and if the player is an upgrade, they will get offers to play at a different program.  If the player is extremely talented and skilled with a good work ethic, they will get opportunities to play at a higher level regardless of what team they are playing on.  I would by lying if I said that it didn't help to play on a team like PPE who plays exclusively vs. "high ranked teams" in events that are scouted.  Keep in mind, hockey is a small world, and within most "AAA" associations, coaches all have some connections, yes some might be better connected than others, but all have some connections.  

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Truth is, at every level 95% of players aren't that far apart. Yes, you have the occasional standout, and you have the bottom. If you're in that 95% where you're mostly interchangeable at your position, then yes you need a connection and some luck. In every professional sport I guarantee you there are players on the bottom that could be switched out with players from the next level down, and no one would notice. It's like getting a job- if you or someone you know can vouch for you or recommend you, then chances are good you will get that job over someone with similar qualifications. People go with the "known", and the right connection somewhere can make a huge difference. 

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PPE & Esmark will get you more looks along with a better chance to be drafted to a junior team agreed. That said getting drafted doesn't mean anything. I have seen multiple high drafts be totally embarrassed because they were drafted because of the high ranked team or Dad played D-1 with connections. There is over 100 Tier 3 junior teams & any above average PIHL player can make a Tier 3 team. Games are over in juniors & it doesn't matter who you know. If your good enough, you move up in Tier when the League above says you're ready. If You're not good enough Mommy & Daddies excuses will not help you. You can either play your Tier 3 career out until your 20 or pack it in. Just in USA not counting Canada there are almost 160 T3 - T1 junior teams. Each Tier there is a noticeable speed & skill difference. A special place where opinions don't matter only your skill.

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17 minutes ago, Puck01 said:

PPE & Esmark will get you more looks along with a better chance to be drafted to a junior team agreed. That said getting drafted doesn't mean anything. I have seen multiple high drafts be totally embarrassed because they were drafted because of the high ranked team or Dad played D-1 with connections. There is over 100 Tier 3 junior teams & any above average PIHL player can make a Tier 3 team. Games are over in juniors & it doesn't matter who you know. If your good enough, you move up in Tier when the League above says you're ready. If You're not good enough Mommy & Daddies excuses will not help you. You can either play your Tier 3 career out until your 20 or pack it in. Just in USA not counting Canada there are almost 160 T3 - T1 junior teams. Each Tier there is a noticeable speed & skill difference. A special place where opinions don't matter only your skill.

Finally someone who explained it all without the BS and Bias.  Thanks

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Could it possibly be that  Vengeance, SHAHA and Preds started BY teams at 10U which is something Esmark never had to contend with in previous years.

They used to get first crack after Pens and ex Pens + solid PAHL kids that wanted to play Tier 1 for years.

Not to mention trips to Blaine, Minnesota to play league games.

The Rochester, Cleveland, Buffalo one Philly circuit may have more appeal in lieu of.

Might be better options for the families with younger kids to stay closer to home for practice as well.

Not to mention the prospect of getting cut mid season..

 

 

Edited by muckerandgrinder
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