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Black Bear Starting to move in on Youth Hockey??


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1 hour ago, Sticktime56 said:

Speaking of moving in on youth hockey. Any truth to the chatter that Esmark will be using RMU as a base for teams to practice etc...? This would be huge as it brings these teams closer and the barrier for most people considering esmark is the drive right now.

A number have people mentioned that Esmark is moving to Printscape after they open their second sheet. This seems much more likely (moving from Black Bear rink to another Black Bear rink) than moving to a non BB rink and losing that significant revenue.

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3 hours ago, Sticktime56 said:

Speaking of moving in on youth hockey. Any truth to the chatter that Esmark will be using RMU as a base for teams to practice etc...? This would be huge as it brings these teams closer and the barrier for most people considering esmark is the drive right now.

With as many teams that play out of RMU already ( along with RMU's program being resurrected and their in-house programs) I can't see this happening.  

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8 hours ago, RJUSHL said:

A number have people mentioned that Esmark is moving to Printscape after they open their second sheet. This seems much more likely (moving from Black Bear rink to another Black Bear rink) than moving to a non BB rink and losing that significant revenue.

The big question is how much control BB has over Esmark. Everyone seems to have a different opinion on this. Can BB of force Esmark to move to Printscape? I'm not sure. But if Printscape does open that second sheet of ice, you better believe that BB has some plans about how they intend to fill all that ice time. Could be schools, could be more South Pgh teams, cold be Esmark moving, could be a new Black Bear Tier 1 program like they run down in Maryland. Who knows.

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14 hours ago, RJUSHL said:

The big question is how much control BB has over Esmark. Everyone seems to have a different opinion on this. Can BB of force Esmark to move to Printscape? I'm not sure. But if Printscape does open that second sheet of ice, you better believe that BB has some plans about how they intend to fill all that ice time. Could be schools, could be more South Pgh teams, cold be Esmark moving, could be a new Black Bear Tier 1 program like they run down in Maryland. Who knows.

None?

I see these comments on here all the time about Esmark and BB and rink rumors. I may not be correct in this, but I'm under the impression that there isn't any_ and Esmark operates under its own set of rules like its own entity. I heard awhile back that the only reason Esmark is at New Ken and with NHAHA is because they use NHAHAs licenses and insurances. Pair that with the fact they are at New Ken where (at the time) the ice was cheaper. It's a win/win for NHAHA and Esmark as unknowing parents might enroll their kids into the program thinking that the Vipers feed into Esmark. NHAHA definitely gains revenue from being paired with Esmark and in turn Esmark uses them. 

So Esmark is only tied to New Ken to generate the most money (cheap ice, tied to NHAHA, MAYBE grab a kid east of the city). So while BB buys all these rinks they are only trying to get the organizations to have a monopoly. You think BB really wanted Rostraver? gtfoh. They wanted to snatch up any organizations that could possibly run out of rinks that they don't own. They are going to throw some paint on the walls and keep their rink grabbing moving. The more organization logos you can throw on your posters for your league_ the better it looks and once you own most of the rinks in the area no one will have anywhere to go and you dictate the ice cost.

That being said, I don't believe that Esmark is locked in to being with NHAHA. As soon as BB makes it non-profitable for Esmark or cuts into their profits too much I wouldn't be shocked if Esmark cuts from NHAHA and aligns with someone else. NHAHA on the other hand is pretty much stuck at New Ken and a BB rink where they will control everything now.

I think everyone looks at NHAHA and Esmark like a tier system because that's how they sell it. Vipers > Viper stars > Esmark. I look at it like Vipers and NHAHA are the organization at New Ken. Stars were fabricated to be a bridge between Vipers and Esmark but are really just a way to get more money out of the better players there, and Esmark is a AAA organization that pretty much does what they want at the top. With everyone using each other along the way. At the end of the day these are all businesses trying to make money. I would be shocked if anyone could name 1 kid that went from Vipers to Esmark in the last 10 years.

I'm not saying that the level of hockey being played, coached isn't worth the money_ and it's everyone choice on how to spend theirs. I'm simply saying that these are businesses, and they are here to make money. If BB makes it so Esmark can't make their money then they will try to find another way/place to do it. Do you think Esmark cares where the home rink location is? Unless it has an effect on the kids (money) they can pull in_ they don't care.  Esmark is in a unique situation being tied in with NHAHA and I think there is a balancing of pros and cons probably happening to find out if it is worth it to separate and move to another place/organization. Honestly this probably happens consistently with ever changing variables, but I think you guys need to realize that the determining factor is always the money. Not the kids, not the hockey, not the rink location, not the organizations, not the rink owners. The sooner you figure that out the easier it is to understand everything that happens/is happening.

 

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 11/25/2022 at 11:18 AM, Spear and Magic Helmet said:

Per their website, AHA started in 1992 at Golden Mile:
https://www.ahabadgers.com/page/show/2101767-about-allegheny-hockey

I am not 100% sure about this, but I believe Eastern moved to Harmarville not long after the rink was built (1992 I think). Eastern merged with the Amateur Penguins a few years later. I'm not sure if the Amateur Penguins AAA teams were rebranded as the Junior Penguins at the same time or if that happened later. NHAHA also moved to Harmarville around the same time as Eastern. I think they eventually became the Pittsburgh Huskies and moved to PIA.
 

Yup and before that, they played out of the Golden Hole as Eastern......

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12 hours ago, GrumpyOldPucker said:

Yup and before that, they played out of the Golden Hole as Eastern......

Eastern started at the Alpine gardens near WTAE studio. Then moved to Monroeville mall.

 

On 12/5/2022 at 7:39 AM, LGP13 said:

None?

I see these comments on here all the time about Esmark and BB and rink rumors. I may not be correct in this, but I'm under the impression that there isn't any_ and Esmark operates under its own set of rules like its own entity. I heard awhile back that the only reason Esmark is at New Ken and with NHAHA is because they use NHAHAs licenses and insurances. Pair that with the fact they are at New Ken where (at the time) the ice was cheaper. It's a win/win for NHAHA and Esmark as unknowing parents might enroll their kids into the program thinking that the Vipers feed into Esmark. NHAHA definitely gains revenue from being paired with Esmark and in turn Esmark uses them. 

So Esmark is only tied to New Ken to generate the most money (cheap ice, tied to NHAHA, MAYBE grab a kid east of the city). So while BB buys all these rinks they are only trying to get the organizations to have a monopoly. You think BB really wanted Rostraver? gtfoh. They wanted to snatch up any organizations that could possibly run out of rinks that they don't own. They are going to throw some paint on the walls and keep their rink grabbing moving. The more organization logos you can throw on your posters for your league_ the better it looks and once you own most of the rinks in the area no one will have anywhere to go and you dictate the ice cost.

That being said, I don't believe that Esmark is locked in to being with NHAHA. As soon as BB makes it non-profitable for Esmark or cuts into their profits too much I wouldn't be shocked if Esmark cuts from NHAHA and aligns with someone else. NHAHA on the other hand is pretty much stuck at New Ken and a BB rink where they will control everything now.

I think everyone looks at NHAHA and Esmark like a tier system because that's how they sell it. Vipers > Viper stars > Esmark. I look at it like Vipers and NHAHA are the organization at New Ken. Stars were fabricated to be a bridge between Vipers and Esmark but are really just a way to get more money out of the better players there, and Esmark is a AAA organization that pretty much does what they want at the top. With everyone using each other along the way. At the end of the day these are all businesses trying to make money. I would be shocked if anyone could name 1 kid that went from Vipers to Esmark in the last 10 years.

I'm not saying that the level of hockey being played, coached isn't worth the money_ and it's everyone choice on how to spend theirs. I'm simply saying that these are businesses, and they are here to make money. If BB makes it so Esmark can't make their money then they will try to find another way/place to do it. Do you think Esmark cares where the home rink location is? Unless it has an effect on the kids (money) they can pull in_ they don't care.  Esmark is in a unique situation being tied in with NHAHA and I think there is a balancing of pros and cons probably happening to find out if it is worth it to separate and move to another place/organization. Honestly this probably happens consistently with ever changing variables, but I think you guys need to realize that the determining factor is always the money. Not the kids, not the hockey, not the rink location, not the organizations, not the rink owners. The sooner you figure that out the easier it is to understand everything that happens/is happening.

 

Esmark skates under NHAHA USA number

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  • 3 weeks later...

My buddy told me that Esmark is still not in the clear of this whole Viper/Husky fiasco.  LGP13 above sounds like they are hitting the nail on the head.  High probability Esmark is playing at some other rink next year.  

Assuming that is true, and perhaps they do move to Printscape....does that change the whole landscape of hockey in the south?

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54 minutes ago, Ihearthockey said:

My buddy told me that Esmark is still not in the clear of this whole Viper/Husky fiasco.  LGP13 above sounds like they are hitting the nail on the head.  High probability Esmark is playing at some other rink next year.  

Assuming that is true, and perhaps they do move to Printscape....does that change the whole landscape of hockey in the south?

Remember, Esmark needs a team to roster under, one with a AAA charter.

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1 hour ago, Ihearthockey said:

My buddy told me that Esmark is still not in the clear of this whole Viper/Husky fiasco.  LGP13 above sounds like they are hitting the nail on the head.  High probability Esmark is playing at some other rink next year.  

Assuming that is true, and perhaps they do move to Printscape....does that change the whole landscape of hockey in the south?

It would definitely change the landscape of the south hills, especially if esmark ventures into the squirt team territory and scoops up the kids from the get go. 
 

That being said, it does look like Huskies are aligned to be a “feeder” program to Esmark according to the nice little chart they have on the PIA website 

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According to a Facebook post by Pittsburgh Ice Arena, Esmark will be offered ice there.  PIA will offer ice to the Huskies and Esmark.  Which now begs the question is Esmark gonna move from NHAHA to Huskies?  There are comments on the post about it by NHAHA board members who seem to think that Esmark is staying with NHAHA but Id be curious to know what Esmark coaches/operators have to say.  If PIA/BB was working a deal with Huskies on the side, whats stopping them from doing the same with Esmark?

It could be Esmark moves to Printscape under Rebellion. AMR24 is a board member on NHAHA, she may have more info.  There was an earlier post suggesting that move, to pick up talent from that part of the area, which makes sense.

Is Kosick or Yuri on here?  Maybe they can clear up the speculation.  

Idc, im just watching and waiting to see what happens. Either way, its clear that you either cooperate with BB or they arent afraid to explore alternatives in parallel.   

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It does seem like additional changes are likely. I have no inside information but it doesn't seem like Black Bear and Esmark are quite on the same page.

This has been speculated before but that long-rumored second sheet of ice at Printscape will have a big ripple effect. Everyone and their brother has been saying for about a month now that it's a basically a done deal. I'm skeptical. There are an absurd number of moving parts to make that happen.

My guess is that if Black Bear is unable to make an announcement about a second sheet at Printscape in the next week or so, it's likely not going to happen for next season.

But if (and that's a big if) they do announce an additional sheet of ice under Black Bear control, here are some possible outcomes that seem somewhat likely...

  1. Esmark and Black Bear come to some arrangement and Esmark moves to Southpointe. Esmark tryout registrations would absolutely skyrocket if this happened. I think the numbers would shock a lot of people. And if they don't force high school kids to pay private school tuition, there may finally be somewhat of a PPE competitor in Pittsburgh.
  2. Black Bear decides to keep letting Esmark use PIA, and Esmark continues to struggle fielding solid AAA teams, and continues to lose out to "lesser" organizations in the south hills like SHAHA and Preds. Esmark plays in a bad location for many, and there is already a lot of competition from Tier 1 only organizations north of the city.
  3. Black Bear starts their fully owned/controlled AAA Tier 1 only program at Southpointe. If they do this correctly, this would rob SHAHA, Preds, and a lot of those south hills kids driving to New Ken or Harmarville to play AAA hockey.

Black Bear wins (market share, revenue) in a big way with option 1 and 3, but if option 2 happens I think it hurts Black Bear. Esmark will continue to decline in competitiveness and reputation.

But again, I don't think the second sheet at Southpointe is happening. If it is, Black Bear better get in gear and make an announcement. Orgs will be planning tryouts within a few weeks.

Edited by RJUSHL
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Can I ask a seemingly stupid question?

What is Esmark other than a name?  Isn't it the PLAYERS who make the team?

So couldn't Black Bear/The Huskies just add a AAA team and pull those players from the current Esmark squad?

To those families, there wouldn't be a difference, right?

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That's exactly what they are doing with the Vipers and Viper Stars.  With Esmark it is the players but also the Coaches.  AAA teams all have paid coaches as opposed to volunteer dads!   Yuri and Kosick are the primary people behind Esmark and with Kopchack in the Huskies fold I'd be shocked if Esmark moved anywhere.  Just my thoughts

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38 minutes ago, hockeyisgreat said:

That's exactly what they are doing with the Vipers and Viper Stars.  With Esmark it is the players but also the Coaches.  AAA teams all have paid coaches as opposed to volunteer dads!   Yuri and Kosick are the primary people behind Esmark and with Kopchack in the Huskies fold I'd be shocked if Esmark moved anywhere.  Just my thoughts

What is the Viper Stars? I feel like, years ago, they had the Vipers and the Viper Stars, which was a result of NHAHA and the Pittsburgh/Steel City Stars merging. However, what was once the Viper Stars seems to be Esmark now.

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The whole thing with Black Bear backing Huskies and not giving ice to Vipers or Vipers Stars but giving ice to Esmark came to a shock to ALL members of the NHAHA board. We believed we were in negotiations with them for ice and had been so for over a month.. So, I don’t really have any good answers other than we are working, as a whole, towards finding a new spot. It’s too early to even speculate on how that will end up looking.

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47 minutes ago, AMR24 said:

The whole thing with Black Bear backing Huskies and not giving ice to Vipers or Vipers Stars but giving ice to Esmark came to a shock to ALL members of the NHAHA board. We believed we were in negotiations with them for ice and had been so for over a month.. So, I don’t really have any good answers other than we are working, as a whole, towards finding a new spot. It’s too early to even speculate on how that will end up looking.

Where was the impasse in negotiations? Like just about everything else, was it about money?

And isn't NHAHA and Esmark closely aligned, so Esmark continuing to work with Black Bear almost like stabbing NHAHA in the back? Probably too strong of a phrase but you know what I mean.

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I don't know enough about Black Bear to state an educated opinion on them, but I will say this:  I was reading this chain and signed up for this message board today.  I took the name "No Politics" for a reason.  My child is a teen who knows tons of kids from many different programs (including the Vipers/Stars/Esmark), and politics like a president/VP/board member's kid and their friends getting special treatment, extra ice time, etc. kills these programs.  

Parents aren't as stupid or obnoxious as everyone makes them out to be.  Contrary to popular belief, most parents I know don't want their kid to play AAA (or even AA).  They just want their kid to play where they actually belong, and have fun without political crap like a team manager dictating tournaments that benefits THEIR family instead of the majority of the TEAM'S families, dads coaching just to give their less-talented kids more ice time, and boards who ignore it all because they are friends with those hacks.  

If a corporation like Black Bear solves these problem by looking at the bottom line ($$$) instead of playing favorites and creating an intra-organization (or even intra-team) "haves and have nots" culture that ruins the sport for the kids and their families, then I am in favor of it.

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1 hour ago, RJUSHL said:

Where was the impasse in negotiations? Like just about everything else, was it about money?

And isn't NHAHA and Esmark closely aligned, so Esmark continuing to work with Black Bear almost like stabbing NHAHA in the back? Probably too strong of a phrase but you know what I mean.

The negotiations were fluid, I felt. We thought we were making head way. But it all came down to control…they wanted full control to run it as a for profit. We were trying to find a middle ground where it stays non profit. We had a meeting, both sides gave ideas on how it could work. Then the day after Christmas, they shut it down. The impasse was control but we truly believed we were making head way.

I can’t speak much on Esmark because I am not all that involved on that end. But it is my understanding that the “alignment” with Black Bear is 1 sided. There was no knowledge until PIA’s posting that they were attempting to separate Esmark from Vipers/Viper Stars. Again, many surprises that day…

 

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15 hours ago, No Politics said:

I don't know enough about Black Bear to state an educated opinion on them, but I will say this:  I was reading this chain and signed up for this message board today.  I took the name "No Politics" for a reason.  My child is a teen who knows tons of kids from many different programs (including the Vipers/Stars/Esmark), and politics like a president/VP/board member's kid and their friends getting special treatment, extra ice time, etc. kills these programs.  

Parents aren't as stupid or obnoxious as everyone makes them out to be.  Contrary to popular belief, most parents I know don't want their kid to play AAA (or even AA).  They just want their kid to play where they actually belong, and have fun without political crap like a team manager dictating tournaments that benefits THEIR family instead of the majority of the TEAM'S families, dads coaching just to give their less-talented kids more ice time, and boards who ignore it all because they are friends with those hacks.  

If a corporation like Black Bear solves these problem by looking at the bottom line ($$$) instead of playing favorites and creating an intra-organization (or even intra-team) "haves and have nots" culture that ruins the sport for the kids and their families, then I am in favor of it.

well, there are always politics involved in everything, that's just life.. 

in a perfect world i could agree with you, but unfortunately that isn't what it is. there are always good and bad that come from change, you state the good, maybe that will be the case, if so then i would agree that would be great. 

however if you look into black bear, all the social media posts, all the comments, there is not a single positive comment about them. furthermore, they are developing their own league, talk about politics? so in the transition over the next 5-10 years you have all these kids stuck in the middle..  what does that mean.  so if your  playing for a black bear rink next year regardless of level, you will be playin in their league. that means you will be traveling for league games, to philly, ohio, new jersey, michigan. so your in house lower level league games are now a travel league.. or your staying local and playing the same 4 teams over and over and over.. maybe that's ok for some.. IDK 

now in 5-10 years when they own all the rinks, less travel. maybe not a big deal.  but for now its a mess for anyone in the middle of it. especially players and families not looking to travel.  id expect large tryout numbers at lower level teams that are still in pahl.  or lots of un educated parents complaining all year that they weren't aware of what they got into. 

i did hear that either pahl, or blackbear are petitioning to allow for profit teams to play in pahl.  this could help with travel, but i don't see the point in pahl allowing this to happen. it would be like helping blackbear take over their league. helping them now so in 5-10 years blackbear can say F u and continue to run their own league, taking all the local teams with it.   unless somehow blackbear and pahl have some end game plan/partnership. 

 

 

 

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17 hours ago, sadday4hockey said:

Let's just call it another "Posey Project".

It was his way of getting the many sheep out there to pay an extra 1K per player so they could be called Viper Stars and not Vipers.

regardless what you think, some people don't want dad coaches, some people are willing to pay an extra 1k a season to not have a dad coach, and play teams outside of pahl more regularly, get gym time, off ice, and films.. 

the vipers stars offered that, a higher level, independent games, and no dad coaches. like it or not it had/has a purpose. 

 

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3 minutes ago, sadday4hockey said:

I think the word "allegedly" needs placed in this sentence

your opinion, your entitled to it. but facts are facts, they are a higher level than the vipers, and they do play independent games, like it or not. 

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Rock, I understand what you are saying.  Again, I am not able to comment on Black Bear... don't know enough about them.  I am sure people don't like them, but is that because they can't pull their political BS with Black Bear?  Is their kid actually playing A Minor Black where they belong instead of being put on the AA team because mom's on the board?

My focus isn't even Black Bear, per se.  Profit is not the same as politics.  What drew my attention in this chain is that so many people want to see Black Bear as this evil empire, and are totally willing to absolve the local organizations of the political BS that helped opened the door to the Black Bears of the world to begin with.

We're talking about the Vipers at the moment.  Is that what may have happened there?  How did they go from having TONS of loaded teams just a few years ago to having a handful of teams this year?  Black Bear?

We have very good friends who USED to be in the Vipers organization when it was hot.  They said the Vipers Board was split because some of the more reasonable members wanted to maintain the developmental model that was working, while the board members who wanted their kids to be "AA" players pushed the Stars "AA" program (even if it wasn't AA like sadday4hockey stated).  Maybe they righted that ship somewhat, because the '08 AA team seems to be doing well this year, but that same team was winless just a couple years ago because they weren't truly AA.  But the damage was done organizationally, right?

That's what makes me shake my head.  Yes, politics happens everywhere, but why aren't boards, coaches, managers, etc. ever accountable for the political moves they make (other than families just moving to another organization)?  Too many parent board members/coaches/managers hook their own kids up to the detriment of the organizations.  Do we (as a whole) learn from that?  No.  

We see the same thing over and over again, and now we are supposed to sympathize with an organization who slit their own throat?  Not from this cat.

 

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1 hour ago, rock said:

so if your  playing for a black bear rink next year regardless of level, you will be playin in their league. that means you will be traveling for league games, to philly, ohio, new jersey, michigan. so your in house lower level league games are now a travel league.. or your staying local and playing the same 4 teams over and over and over.. maybe that's ok for some.. IDK 

now in 5-10 years when they own all the rinks, less travel. maybe not a big deal.

I think your comparison of travel between Black Bear and PAHL may actually be reversed. I think the takeover is going to happen so fast and furious that there will be more local AFH teams than local PAHL teams.

A few dominoes will fall and then even organizations at non-Black Bear rinks will join the AHF. I think next season it's going to be 50/50, the season after that 75/25 local AHF teams to PAHL teams. The PAHL teams will need to travel more to find competitive teams unless they want to play the same three teams a half dozen times per season.

We know Allegheny Badgers, Rebellion, Huskies, Thunder, and Phantoms will be AHF organizations before we know it. I would guess next season. I believe Badgers are currently the largest PAHL organization? That's a lot of teams. Rebellion is also probably a top 7 or so origination in terms of PAHL teams.

Those teams will probably be the start of an AHF "West" division. And I actually think those orgs will pick up players and teams as ice allows it. Parents are suckers for the live scoring, app, all star games, and what they perceive as additional "exposure" for their kids.

And then all it takes is one or two more PAHL orgs in non Black Bear rinks to jump over to the AHF. All of a sudden Black Bear is no longer pushing the boulder up a hill. It's crested and starting to roll down hill, picking up the vast majority of other PAHL teams as it builds momentum.

I'm torn about all this. AHF has some pretty cool things. I think the hockey is probably better or at least more interesting than PAHL. But there is no doubt it's going to make youth hockey even more expensive in WPA.

Edited by RJUSHL
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