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Black Bear Starting to move in on Youth Hockey??


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hard to say, I'm not disagreeing with you. like i said maybe in 5-10 years it will be a great thing.  just sucks for those stuck in the transition.

regardless of what side your on, time will tell the story, i hope for future generations this is a good thing. 

 

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1 minute ago, RJUSHL said:

I think your comparison of travel between Black Bear and PAHL may actually be reversed. I think the takeover is going to happen so fast and furious that there will be more local AFH teams than local PAHL teams.

A few dominoes will fall and then even organizations at non-Black Bear rinks will join the AHF. I think next season it's going to be 50/50, the season after that 75/25 local AHF teams to PAHL teams. The PAHL teams will need to travel more to find competitive teams unless they want to play the same three teams a half dozen times per season.

That is what happened in Philly.  I have a few friends that are in organizations out East that decided to join the Black Bear league because there was less travel.  Their rinks were not BB owned rinks.  Will be interesting to watch.  I’m curious to see if they can pull some of the “AAA” teams back in and get them to play each other

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1 minute ago, RJUSHL said:

I think your comparison of travel between Black Bear and PAHL may actually be reversed. I think the takeover is going to happen so fast and furious that there will be more local AFH teams than local PAHL teams.

A few dominoes will fall and then even organizations at non-Black Bear rinks will join the AHF. I think next season it's going to be 50/50, the season after that 75/25 local AHF teams to PAHL teams. The PAHL teams will need to travel more to find competitive teams unless they want to play the same three teams a half dozen times per season.

maybe, hopefully, for those involved that is the case.

 

 

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Just now, Lucky17 said:

That is what happened in Philly.  I have a few friends that are in organizations out East that decided to join the Black Bear league because there was less travel.  Their rinks were not BB owned rinks.  Will be interesting to watch.  I’m curious to see if they can pull some of the “AAA” teams back in and get them to play each other

that may be possible, but as of know the only one they control is esmark.  all the others are still privately owned rinks.. never control The pens elite, so they are out.. i heard they are 2 mil off from purchasing ice castle, so press could be in control soon, alpha not for sale yet, but who know with the pending divorce of owners, SHAHA and or mt lebo are municipal rinks? can't see them buying those anytime soon if at all. 

 

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4 minutes ago, rock said:

i heard they are 2 mil off from purchasing ice castle, so press could be in control soon,

I had not heard that about the Preds. That would be something.

But it does feel like every time we hear a rumor about a Black Bear purchase, it eventually comes to pass.

Edited by RJUSHL
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4 minutes ago, rock said:

that may be possible, but as of know the only one they control is esmark.  all the others are still privately owned rinks.. never control The pens elite, so they are out.. i heard they are 2 mil off from purchasing ice castle, so press could be in control soon, alpha not for sale yet, but who know with the pending divorce of owners, SHAHA and or mt lebo are municipal rinks? can't see them buying those anytime soon if at all. 

 

Yes, you’ll notice I said “some”.  I don’t kid myself that PPE would stoop to that level.  If BB can offer their AAA league giving those AAA programs that play independent a league option with competition from the East and maybe draw in some OH teams then it could have a West division of that league.  Some teams may choose to play there even though they are not controlled by BB because it gives them a league instead of just playing for MHR ranking.

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4 minutes ago, Lucky17 said:

If BB can offer their AAA league giving those AAA programs that play independent a league option with competition from the East and maybe draw in some OH teams then it could have a West division of that league.  Some teams may choose to play there even though they are not controlled by BB because it gives them a league instead of just playing for MHR ranking.

I agree with this. Esmark is already in the Black Bear Tier 1 league. And I think there will be a Tier 1 organization out of Southpointe that will play in the Black Bear Tier 1 league as well. But they don't have enough ice right now, but that may change.

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51 minutes ago, No Politics said:

  Maybe they righted that ship somewhat, because the '08 AA team seems to be doing well this year, but that same team was winless just a couple years ago because they weren't truly AA.  But the damage was done organizationally, right?

 

 

a little history on the 08 team,  the first year they formed they won pahl  the next season esmark offered an 08 team and they lost half their roster and yes they had a miserable season  close games but winless  the next year won pahl  and now this year again thriving 

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1 hour ago, rock said:

a little history on the 08 team,  the first year they formed they won pahl  the next season esmark offered an 08 team and they lost half their roster and yes they had a miserable season  close games but winless  the next year won pahl  and now this year again thriving 

My son was on the win-less team that following year. I’ll be honest and say that there were kids placed on that team just to fill it. Maybe my son was 1 of them? Idk. He started off strong but had a very hard time adjusting to the schedule, the demands and the coach. He was a 1st year coach with a lot to learn. He did not make the team the following year and my son moved back down to Vipers, where he is thriving and having a blast. AA was not for him. But that team should have never been declared AA. That was a decision made by Posey at the time. Springing forward a couple years, once the coach got a little stronger and brought in a few stronger players, that team is now thriving. Actually, all the NHAHA teams are doing well in PAHL at this point. There may not be many teams but what we have are performing well.

But going back to the original thought, the 08 team that win-less year was pushed not by board or parents but by a coordinator that wanted his coordinator fee. The team attempted to the appeal PAHL placement but was denied. So many of those kids cracked under the pressure of constantly losing. My son was 1 that cracked. It was a rough year then a rough recovery. A few years later, he’s finally back to himself on the ice.

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Honestly, I'm usually against corporate takeovers of any small businesses. Whether it's local hardware stores or ice rinks. 

But at the same time; between dad coaches, mom and dad boards, dilapidated facilities, questionable marketing, and a multitude of other things, I can see kids and families that age out before Black Bear completely takes over saying to themselves, "Wow, I sure wish we had this situation then like what these people have now". 

I'm sure BB will have their own problems, but on the whole it could be a big win for everybody. 

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18 hours ago, No Politics said:

I don't know enough about Black Bear to state an educated opinion on them, but I will say this:  I was reading this chain and signed up for this message board today.  I took the name "No Politics" for a reason.  My child is a teen who knows tons of kids from many different programs (including the Vipers/Stars/Esmark), and politics like a president/VP/board member's kid and their friends getting special treatment, extra ice time, etc. kills these programs.  

Parents aren't as stupid or obnoxious as everyone makes them out to be.  Contrary to popular belief, most parents I know don't want their kid to play AAA (or even AA).  They just want their kid to play where they actually belong, and have fun without political crap like a team manager dictating tournaments that benefits THEIR family instead of the majority of the TEAM'S families, dads coaching just to give their less-talented kids more ice time, and boards who ignore it all because they are friends with those hacks.  

If a corporation like Black Bear solves these problem by looking at the bottom line ($$$) instead of playing favorites and creating an intra-organization (or even intra-team) "haves and have nots" culture that ruins the sport for the kids and their families, then I am in favor of it.

I thought I posted on this last night but now I don’t see it. Ugh. Let me try again…lol…

Every organization has the dynamic of politics. Every organization, every sport…always has. How do you correct that? I don’t know. But I don’t think Black Bear is the solution. End of day, their “paid coaches” are still parent coaches who receive a stipend for their time…their kid plays free. Honestly, I think that’s a great idea because more people will volunteer and you get a better selection for coaches. But the end result is the same…dad coaching his kid. 


Yes, Black Bear will look only at the bottom $$$ but that’s not a good thing. They are making money off the kids. As long as they are getting paid, they don’t care how the teams look. They aren’t going to be worried if families could afford it, they’ll be worried about how much in the black they can get. I sat in on a couple of meetings. Not once did they talk about their development plans or their plans to grow the sport. All they spoke about was the money the investors put in and how they plan on getting more money into the rink. There was seriously no talk of anything but that. It was disheartening, to be honest.

I just don’t think Black Bear is the answer. I actually think they will be to the detriment of Western PA hockey. They are going to force PAHL down to nothing, creating their own league. PAHL will become non-existent. Their own league, right now, has very few Western PA locations, which will force more travel for parents and kids who like the local play. These A and B teams are happy to play their 20 game season at the local rinks. They don’t want more than that. I think this may force some kids off the ice and out of the sport all together…

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AMR, you may be right.  I can tell you that as a parent, I had to watch my children play for multiple organizations over their youth careers and I always wondered how adults could muck up something so simple, though.  That is why I am actually interested in seeing if Black Bear's model would work.

What we have obviously isn't working.  My eldest son, for example, started playing when he was seven years-old, and only had TWO seasons that could be described as fun (first year of 8U, and second year of 12U).  All his coaches said he was a good kid, he was a talented player, and he never had any desire to be anything more than an A-level player no matter how much he was asked to play at higher levels.  He just loved playing hockey and being with his friends.  That poor kid took every jab the adult dad coaches (and the boards who supported them even after receiving tons of complaints about the same coaches) gave him, and only ONCE got upset in his entire "career."  Rightfully so, too.

So you asked how you address politics.  I assume you are on a board.  I am, too (just not a hockey board... soccer).  Here's the question I would ask you and all the other board members from ANY organization who may see this, and which I ask my board all the time:  Do you care more about developing these kids and the organization over the long-term, or are you looking to do what is best for only your child, their friends, and/or those people who are in your personal clique?

No one is going to admit that they took the selfish route.  No one.  But many did (and do).  It's all about ego, right?  So if Black Bear is all about money, at least it's not ego.  Unlike a board that doesn't care about dysfunction in their organization as long as their kids and their friends are okay, Black Bear (or any other unorthodox organizational management unit) technically would, right?  Because every family that leaves means less money for them.

That, to me, is the difference.  They have a vested interest in succeeding.  Parent-run organizations don't.  A terrible board president, for example, could ruin an organization, then simply take their kid somewhere else.  Every family that leaves could be written off as "troublemakers" or labeled "that family who jumps around all the time."  It costs that president NOTHING personally (other than a lot of bad karma!), whereas it would cost Black Bear everything if they don't fix it.

Just my observation and speculation, though!

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43 minutes ago, No Politics said:

AMR, you may be right.  I can tell you that as a parent, I had to watch my children play for multiple organizations over their youth careers and I always wondered how adults could muck up something so simple, though.  That is why I am actually interested in seeing if Black Bear's model would work.

What we have obviously isn't working.  My eldest son, for example, started playing when he was seven years-old, and only had TWO seasons that could be described as fun (first year of 8U, and second year of 12U).  All his coaches said he was a good kid, he was a talented player, and he never had any desire to be anything more than an A-level player no matter how much he was asked to play at higher levels.  He just loved playing hockey and being with his friends.  That poor kid took every jab the adult dad coaches (and the boards who supported them even after receiving tons of complaints about the same coaches) gave him, and only ONCE got upset in his entire "career."  Rightfully so, too.

So you asked how you address politics.  I assume you are on a board.  I am, too (just not a hockey board... soccer).  Here's the question I would ask you and all the other board members from ANY organization who may see this, and which I ask my board all the time:  Do you care more about developing these kids and the organization over the long-term, or are you looking to do what is best for only your child, their friends, and/or those people who are in your personal clique?

No one is going to admit that they took the selfish route.  No one.  But many did (and do).  It's all about ego, right?  So if Black Bear is all about money, at least it's not ego.  Unlike a board that doesn't care about dysfunction in their organization as long as their kids and their friends are okay, Black Bear (or any other unorthodox organizational management unit) technically would, right?  Because every family that leaves means less money for them.

That, to me, is the difference.  They have a vested interest in succeeding.  Parent-run organizations don't.  A terrible board president, for example, could ruin an organization, then simply take their kid somewhere else.  Every family that leaves could be written off as "troublemakers" or labeled "that family who jumps around all the time."  It costs that president NOTHING personally (other than a lot of bad karma!), whereas it would cost Black Bear everything if they don't fix it.

Just my observation and speculation, though!

I just really don’t think Black Bear will be all that involved in a year or two. They’ll make a good showing the 1st year then move onto the next conquest. Now, if it was a corporation taking over just 1 rink, not 34, maybe they could make a difference. But I just don’t see it here. They’re too big to care about 1 rink. And reading reviews from other organizations they’ve taken over, the outcome is never good.

I am on the NHAHA board. Nothing big, but there none the less. And I didn’t even seek it out. A job needed filled that someone asked if I could do. Knowing little to nothing about the NHAHA board,  I said sure thinking I’d just be doing the job. It wasn’t until a little while later I learned it was a job that came w a board position. So I didn’t start on the board with any other reason than to help. Now that I’m there, I believe I’m in it for the whole organization. My vested interest is seeing it grow, players develop, and for NHAHA to be seen as successful.
 

But do I have a bit of selfishness in me? Sure, we all do. My selfishness is to see that my son continues to have a team/organization to finish his “career “ at. I’m not looking for him to climb the extra A ladder. I’m not looking for him to be on the best team. I’m wanting him to remain in an organization and with teams that 95% of his friends are at.

I have 2 kids. My oldest wanted to climb the ladder. He did B, A, AA, AAA and is now playing ACHA D3 hockey. My youngest thought he wanted that. He made the 08 team and it was a disaster. I can give all the reasons but they aren’t the point. The point is it broke him. Therapy needing broke him. It’s taken a couple of years but he’s finally back smiling and having fun on the ice with his A level team. That’s what I work so hard for…to keep that. To keep him where he is happy and thrives. There were 2 other kids on that 08 team that had similar issues as my son. They are on his team now. They are smiling, happy and enjoying the game. That’s what I want to see continue. I’m not looking for anything but a place for these kids to be able to continue to play the sport they live with their friends they’ve had since ADM. 
 
Again, I see merit in an organization coming in. I do see it’s strong points. I just don’t think Black Bear with their 34 rink empire is the answer. A little hole in the wall rink in New Kensington PA is never going to make them millions of dollars. It’s probably 1 of the easiest ones for them to forget about.

 

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Who is to say BB is a bad thing?  Sure ive seen negative posts on social media, but not the point where it encompasses a large majority.  Does anyone have any facts to show that areas where BB takes over is bad, outside of a handful of a unhappy folks?  Most of what I see when I look on social media are the ppl that were taken over and pushed out complaining.  The hockey team for my child played three teams (in tournaments) that were in AHF from eastern PA and the coaches/ parents i talked to raved at how much better it was, despite the exrta cost.

Who is to say BB isnt better?  Only bad thing I see is the extra cost as a downside, but most ppl would pay more for better quality.  I mean, ive seen bad orgs run by parents in PAHL.  There are plenty around west PA (not saying that about NHAHA - only mentioning them as they were refered to earlier, this is about all orgs), but with a tier 1, tier 2, the AHF league, a large capital of 40 businesses generating 1 bil revenue and 3.7 bil combined capital, not to mention they are hiring experienced hockey personal to run them - there is the possibility (depends on your level of optimism) that BB can do better.  

This post alone has thousands of views and only a few bad opinions.  I hear claims but no real facts, other that what I found when I researched BB and Murry Gunty online.  Look at the summaries of their corporate and operating team, seems to me they have lots of capital and buying power, they even push to keep costs down by using their large number of rinks to negotiate national deals in marketing (Labatts) and for cleaning (Cintas).  PIA was a disgusting mess, at least it gets cleaned now.  Lastly, they hire qualified people with experience.  

PPI worked a deal with UPMC to increase funding from non-profits to boost operating capital that helps with rink repairs.  So they raise the ice costs, they have a right to, they own it and from what i see, they improve their facilities.  At one point you couldnt even open the door to get out of PIA, BB fixed that in a week.

As far as hurting youth hockey, Rink Rats were dying, Rebellion is growing.  Printscspe is a nice facility, and regardless of the deal that was made, Rebellion are working with BB and growing.  Badgers are still strong org with PPI and BB has been working with them for 2 years.  Phantoms show signs of growth.  Curious to watch Rostravier and Mon Valley.  That was a dying rink with a shrinking program, lets see what BB buying leads to.  Can only get better imo.  

Having been at NHAHA, when BB yook over, I saw first hand the meeting with them that some members of the NHAHA board were very hostile with their questions and comments.  I dont know how their private meetings went from there, but from comments from those I talked to suggested it was more of the same.  You cant be hostile when trying to compromise and you have to give to get.

I think BB could be a good thing.  I welcome taking the bad board parents, coaches and managers, who make decisions for their own good as opposed to whats best for the org, out of the loop.  You could argue that BB is better qualified as opposed to volunteer parents.  Maybe that is why those that get ousted are more upset, its about losing their control than whats best for hockey growth.  Idk

Im sure this post wont be well recieved by some or many.  My point is to say there are always more perspectives on any situation.  Assuming BB is bad cause a few handfuls say so, without researching, is irresponsbile.  Also, whats bad for one person or group is not bad for the rest.  

Edited by 2muchAAAinWPA
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You are correct, what’s good for 1 isn’t good for all. I do believe that. And maybe I will be proven wrong and this will be a good thing. That is all yet to be seen.

I did not sit in on the earlier meetings when they 1st took over so I can’t speak to how that went. The most recent meetings were hostile on both sides at times. There were several of us that were able to minimize that on both sides. So we believed the meetings were going in a better direction. Even a couple of the Black Bear employees thought it was going well. It came down to control, neither wanted the other to have full control but for very different reasons.

And, yes, some of it did sting when we were repeatedly told “you don’t know what you’re doing, you’re just a volunteer “. Speaking for myself, I take pride in what I do. Whether it’s working at my 40 hour a week job or the 10 plus hours a week I donate to the organization. To be told I’m of no value because I don’t do this full time is demoralizing. I have been on this board and helped build a successful dek organization on another. I have value and skills that are of use. So, yeah, ego definitely pops up and emotions get riled up.

In the long run, I just don’t see the value in having what they are creating…cookie cutter rinks at every turn. Yes the Rebellion are growing BUT Black Bear does not own Rebellion. They are still in negotiations and have pretty much left them to their own. Rebellion did that all on volunteer run hours and effort. I cannot speak for Phantoms as I do not follow them as much. 

There is value in both aspects…volunteer and paid professionals…so why can there not be a middleman ground? Which was our last proposal to Black Bear and is similar to what they do with Badgers but the did not even counter offer, just kicked 2/3rds of the organization out. That is just something I do not understand. 

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4 minutes ago, AMR24 said:

You are correct, what’s good for 1 isn’t good for all. I do believe that. And maybe I will be proven wrong and this will be a good thing. That is all yet to be seen.

I did not sit in on the earlier meetings when they 1st took over so I can’t speak to how that went. The most recent meetings were hostile on both sides at times. There were several of us that were able to minimize that on both sides. So we believed the meetings were going in a better direction. Even a couple of the Black Bear employees thought it was going well. It came down to control, neither wanted the other to have full control but for very different reasons.

And, yes, some of it did sting when we were repeatedly told “you don’t know what you’re doing, you’re just a volunteer “. Speaking for myself, I take pride in what I do. Whether it’s working at my 40 hour a week job or the 10 plus hours a week I donate to the organization. To be told I’m of no value because I don’t do this full time is demoralizing. I have been on this board and helped build a successful dek organization on another. I have value and skills that are of use. So, yeah, ego definitely pops up and emotions get riled up.

In the long run, I just don’t see the value in having what they are creating…cookie cutter rinks at every turn. Yes the Rebellion are growing BUT Black Bear does not own Rebellion. They are still in negotiations and have pretty much left them to their own. Rebellion did that all on volunteer run hours and effort. I cannot speak for Phantoms as I do not follow them as much. 

There is value in both aspects…volunteer and paid professionals…so why can there not be a middleman ground? Which was our last proposal to Black Bear and is similar to what they do with Badgers but the did not even counter offer, just kicked 2/3rds of the organization out. That is just something I do not understand. 

If they have partnered with Allegheny and left S. Pitt. alone, both of who are growing, perhaps BB saw the need to take over the NHAHA org due to the recent numbers decline?  Protecting their interests.

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I read the PIA website where the Huskies are going to have teams up to 18U.  Where are those players going to come from?  Will the players on the Vipers and the Viper Stars now become Huskies?  How good are the chances that NHAHA finds a home for next year?    

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2 hours ago, Godzilla said:

I read the PIA website where the Huskies are going to have teams up to 18U.  Where are those players going to come from?  Will the players on the Vipers and the Viper Stars now become Huskies?  How good are the chances that NHAHA finds a home for next year?    

I’ve had several people reach out to me. Black Bear believes that many from NHAHA will stay and the Huskies will absorb them. There has also been rumors of Renegade kids and Aviator kids coming over. But it’s all rumor. No one really knows. Tryout season will be interesting this season for sure! We are actively looking for ice. NHAHA intends on having a new home for our teams. That’s is our goal. How that will that look? I have no clue. But we are trying.

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How does anyone expect everyone with the vipers just pick up and stay with the Huskies after how that was done?  They could be shooting themselves in the foot.  
I would be cautious of certain leadership in that new venture as not all of his prior ventures were great experiences.  
 

How does a for profit playin PAHL?

Id also exercise caution with a member of the black Bear team who has experience in the divide and conquer team with another group elsewhere in the area in years past only to run the company and the rink deep into the ground resulting in foreclosure and sheriff sale of the building.  Buyer beware.  

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1 minute ago, Ihearthockey said:

Well that's unfortunate then.  You guys could use the help.  Brown drinking water does nobody good.  

I don't own the rink. I just know when idiots are talking out their asses and try to feel important and big by throwing insults and rumors around. Isn't there another sport and board you can ruin with your negativity and stupidity? For loving hockey, seems silly you would insult places giving people the ability to play. Good work. 

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