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Black Bear Starting to move in on Youth Hockey??


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On 1/7/2023 at 11:12 PM, AMR24 said:

Just know, Black Bear is aiming to buy all non municipal rinks in this area.

This much is clear.  They have 4 rinks already and control or influence over the orgs in their rinks.  PAHL cant stop it.  As with anything in this world, money talks.  When you have 4 billion in capital to work with, can the single owner rink afford to not listen?  If this is going to continue, which it is, is it better to cooperate or dig in and fight as long as you can?  I dont see how PAHL can fend BB off, if they wanted to.  Its really in the rink owners, who own a single rink squaring off against a corporation that owns 36 now (think he just bought two more), can you afford not to?  Im sure there are some owners that will not sell but if the orgs dont join their AHF league, the org and the rink will suffer in a dying PAHL division. (Look at DVHL - which still exists, so not all hope is lost). Maybe its worth cooperating to salvage what can be salvaged, or at least accept certain levels of compromise.  Whats better for youth hockey in this area?  Is it a knock down drag out fight or work with the incoming to keep the programs that are  building, investing and improving.  Im on the middle on this.  I think BB could be good thing, it seems like it could be a better product than PAHL and MidAM.  Is it perfect?   Nothing is in youth sports is.  Either way its coming, surf the wave or get toppled over and hope you float to the top. 

I dont rejoyce about the Vipers current situation, it will be hard to find a new home.  Alpha is buying up all of Shadysides ice, so their school league is using a lot of that.  Its possible they could move there.  Butler?  Shadyside Academy, what Alpha doesnt buy?  What about that Hunt Armory, I dont know it or who plays there, would they have ice.  I dont think any of the one sheet rinks would have enough, like Nevin.  I can see Vipers losing a bunch of kids to Huskies, Renegades, or Aviators.  Its tough, hope they find a solution.

If you havent at least read up on the AHF, Blackstone Investment group, Black Bear sports, Murry Gunty.  Websites and social media are a good start.  Make an informed decision about whether or not its a worthy fight or worth compromising.  

One thing that does concern me is while we have a lot of bad parents and coaches in youth sports, there are a lot of good folks who put their time in and work to do things right.  Watching people like that work hard to do it the right way getting pushed out does suck.  I hope they find a way to stay invovled if thats the case.  Sure its demoralizing, but if your character is true, another opportunity will be there for you to continue to support youth hockey.  

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7 hours ago, 2muchAAAinWPA said:

This much is clear.  They have 4 rinks already and control or influence over the orgs in their rinks.  PAHL cant stop it.  As with anything in this world, money talks.  When you have 4 billion in capital to work with, can the single owner rink afford to not listen?  If this is going to continue, which it is, is it better to cooperate or dig in and fight as long as you can?  I dont see how PAHL can fend BB off, if they wanted to.  Its really in the rink owners, who own a single rink squaring off against a corporation that owns 36 now (think he just bought two more), can you afford not to?  Im sure there are some owners that will not sell but if the orgs dont join their AHF league, the org and the rink will suffer in a dying PAHL division. (Look at DVHL - which still exists, so not all hope is lost). Maybe its worth cooperating to salvage what can be salvaged, or at least accept certain levels of compromise.  Whats better for youth hockey in this area?  Is it a knock down drag out fight or work with the incoming to keep the programs that are  building, investing and improving.  Im on the middle on this.  I think BB could be good thing, it seems like it could be a better product than PAHL and MidAM.  Is it perfect?   Nothing is in youth sports is.  Either way its coming, surf the wave or get toppled over and hope you float to the top. 

I dont rejoyce about the Vipers current situation, it will be hard to find a new home.  Alpha is buying up all of Shadysides ice, so their school league is using a lot of that.  Its possible they could move there.  Butler?  Shadyside Academy, what Alpha doesnt buy?  What about that Hunt Armory, I dont know it or who plays there, would they have ice.  I dont think any of the one sheet rinks would have enough, like Nevin.  I can see Vipers losing a bunch of kids to Huskies, Renegades, or Aviators.  Its tough, hope they find a solution.

If you havent at least read up on the AHF, Blackstone Investment group, Black Bear sports, Murry Gunty.  Websites and social media are a good start.  Make an informed decision about whether or not its a worthy fight or worth compromising.  

One thing that does concern me is while we have a lot of bad parents and coaches in youth sports, there are a lot of good folks who put their time in and work to do things right.  Watching people like that work hard to do it the right way getting pushed out does suck.  I hope they find a way to stay invovled if thats the case.  Sure its demoralizing, but if your character is true, another opportunity will be there for you to continue to support youth hockey.  

I think you make a lot of great points.  While I have my suspicions of BB sports monopolizing the market, it could do some good.  I do believe there are some other rinks throughout the PAHL footprint that could use a very thorough house cleaning.  
 

I think the corporate non-parent sector joined with the “right” parents and volunteers could make a viable team.  There’s always been politics in youth sports and no place is immune to politicians being in the mix but it’s out of hand.  This could be a solution.  Maybe not a cure but a step in the right direction.  
 

I think BB needs to address with its customer base is simple….

1. How to avoid pricing families that are on the borderline out of access to the game. 
 

2. plans on keeping travel reasonable for all levels and limited for those playing on the lower level teams.  The A minor and B teams don’t need to go to incredible distances for play.  
 

3. how converting to for profit status effects playing in PAHL, how that effects one’s ability to fundraise etc. 

I think some town hall type meetings in each respective rink allowing for parent Q&A.  
 

the coming weeks and months are going to be very interesting and I think all of us paying parents deserve as much information as possible before decisions are made.  

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23 minutes ago, HockeyFan6687 said:

I think the corporate non-parent sector joined with the “right” parents and volunteers could make a viable team.  There’s always been politics in youth sports and no place is immune to politicians being in the mix but it’s out of hand.  This could be a solution.  Maybe not a cure but a step in the right direction.  

I think you hit the nail on the head.  Its finding a way to leverage the best of both.  Taking the large capital backed corporate machine, and combining it with the "right" parent volunteers to help run as coaches, board members and managers.  The challenge is meeting in the middle.  You cant stop BB, but you can work with them if you meet them in the middle. 

Another thing to mention is the perception of PAHL and MidAM.  As parents we fund the salaties these PAHL and MidAM reps make, and some of them make a lot of money.  As the people that fund thes orgs, we have no say in how they are governed, therefore we have no say in how they are run.  I read the PAHL minutes, and its same ol same ol, same PAHL. People are tired of it.  No one knows what these PAHL and MidAM executives do.  We dont see the accountability on the teams, coaches, parents, etc.  IMO, so many independent teams and AAA teams exist as people are tired of playing in PAHL.  I think this is where BB and the AHF can bridge that gap.  Look at all the AAA teams in the area, not all are AAA but parents are willing to pay the AAA dollars to play outside of the only othet option, PAHL.  Thats is also happening with AA.  So many of these AA teams are playing independent schedules on top of PAHL schedules, and parents are happy to send it.  Viper Stars is a good example.  4500 to play on their u14 and up teams.  Practices, off ice conditioning, and a 60+ game schedule.  If you look at my hockey rankings, many of the other AA teams are playing schedules of similar size.  Maybe AHF can offer a comparable product for cheaper, given the size of the org and the various markets they are in. 

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11 hours ago, 2muchAAAinWPA said:

I think you hit the nail on the head.  Its finding a way to leverage the best of both.  Taking the large capital backed corporate machine, and combining it with the "right" parent volunteers to help run as coaches, board members and managers.  The challenge is meeting in the middle.  You cant stop BB, but you can work with them if you meet them in the middle. 

Another thing to mention is the perception of PAHL and MidAM.  As parents we fund the salaties these PAHL and MidAM reps make, and some of them make a lot of money.  As the people that fund thes orgs, we have no say in how they are governed, therefore we have no say in how they are run.  I read the PAHL minutes, and its same ol same ol, same PAHL. People are tired of it.  No one knows what these PAHL and MidAM executives do.  We dont see the accountability on the teams, coaches, parents, etc.  IMO, so many independent teams and AAA teams exist as people are tired of playing in PAHL.  I think this is where BB and the AHF can bridge that gap.  Look at all the AAA teams in the area, not all are AAA but parents are willing to pay the AAA dollars to play outside of the only othet option, PAHL.  Thats is also happening with AA.  So many of these AA teams are playing independent schedules on top of PAHL schedules, and parents are happy to send it.  Viper Stars is a good example.  4500 to play on their u14 and up teams.  Practices, off ice conditioning, and a 60+ game schedule.  If you look at my hockey rankings, many of the other AA teams are playing schedules of similar size.  Maybe AHF can offer a comparable product for cheaper, given the size of the org and the various markets they are in. 

The reason that so many wanna be AAA teams exist is because a lot of parent want to say little Jimmy or Johnny play AAA hockey. 

As it was said above, PAHL could be great.  They referenced the 2007 Badgers who lost in the AA national championship game by a goal.  All the games during  Mid Am's with the 2007 group were two goal games.  There was one team out of the 8 that got blown out every game but their spot could have easily been fill by the "AAA" Vengeance team that would have been middle of the pack.  

The AHF league/teams are no better than PAHL and probably worse.  BB just wants to Monopolize the rinks, the leagues, where you get your uniforms,....  Do you really think BB wanted the rink in Rostravor?  No, it is just in the same geographical area as two other rinks they own.  The AHF league will most likely cost more than PAHL, not be as good as PAHL (I know that may be hard to believe), and have you traveling more to play lower quality teams. 

When BB bought their first rink in the area and some people were excited I warned that they won't be good for hockey in this area.  They clearly like to buy enough rinks to push up and set ice prices, create their own money making league, ......

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3 hours ago, Carl Racki said:

 They clearly like to buy enough rinks to push up and set ice prices, create their own money making league, ....

This is what is making me nervous. We are enjoying playing for the Rebellion and in the PAHL. We only travel 2 or 3 times tops all year. That is perfect for many of the families. I know if they force us into a league with more travel, we won't be back. If the rates go up 1k it would probably stop us too. I'm hoping Rebellion stays the course because it is a wonderful organization.

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There are no paid MidAm positions.  There are perks like all expenses paid travelling to Florida for winter meetings and Colorado Springs for summer meetings.  However, there are decisions made that can bring in money.  Like the district select camps that were always hosted at Kent State.  When the coach in chief moved to Bowling Green as the rink manager the camps shifted locations.   The tryouts are always at the Tam-O-Shanter.  Again look at who manages these facilities, and what their positions are on the Mid Am board.

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While I agree there are very few organizations that are run very well, I do not think it's very effective bad rapping the organizations. Sure, it might make you feel better & annoy others.... That's about the extent of the progress. In each organization an owner put their time & $ into it along with a board that works for free to manage it. Sure, not everyone can afford to organize a team, but anyone if they have time to be on a site like this would be better justified to join a board & better one of these organizations. BB just like PPE is not going away & they are large organizations with their own Culture & your complaints will change nothing about it. Let's be honest Western PA hockey community is the reason we are not competitive because we run the boards which oversee the teams & set the cost. The organizations & boards are run by this community. Keep complaining or do something about it it's not rocket science!

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Going back to the Black Bear take over of PIA and NHAHA.  Like another person on this post I represent the NHAHA board of directors. 

 

Black bear made their announcement via social media days after the Christmas break and days before the start of the new year.  Which anyone in hockey knows that it’s time to start planning for next year.  This was a calculated move to disrupt the NHAHA board and families. At the last meeting we had with Scott Branovan and the Black Bear Co. we were working out a management agreement between NHAHA and Black Bear.  We were completely blindsided when the hammer fell on social media.  

 

Many can speculate who is at fault, but not many of you know the content of our conversations and the lack of decency that emulates from the Black Bear Sports group representatives. 

 

I completely understand that Black Bear bought a broken ice rink and had to dump big money into keeping it operational.  So now they need to completely control the ice hockey product so that they know what needs to be charged per family to protect their P&L and keep their investors happy.  

 

There was a middle ground here though.  There could have been a collective effort that would have benefited everyone, and we discussed that at length!  After-all we still gave them upwards of a million dollars in ice this season.  There is more than enough ice to go around at PIA.  The Huskies are not going to turn into an instant success.  

 

I’ve seen people on here talking about NHAHA’s declining membership, and there is some truth there but…  We weeded through most of that and were turning the corner.  We’ve seen significant growth in our grass-roots program this season.  

 

 

FYI for the person that claims no Vipers player has made it to Esmark in the past decade, my child did!  Then he was given CJ Stellebotte for a head coach, but that is a story for another time!

 

I hear the argument that Black Bear and their “paid professionals” will do a much better job than a Board composed of “parents & dads”. Nepotism is going to exist regardless of who is collecting the tuition checks.  Black Bear coaches are still going to consist of dads making teams with kids that they want their kids playing with.  At least with NHAHA we always tried to keep that process transparent.  As a volunteer this past season, I’ve assisted in coaching on multiple teams, ran a portion of our program, set up Open House events, organizational picnics, put together marketing flyers, and managed overall organizational communications while accepting a stipend of $1200 for the season.  I didn’t do all of this selfishly for my kids.  If the stipend were gone, I still would have done it!  I wanted our families to feel like they are part of something bigger.  As the oldest running non-profit youth hockey organization in PA, there is a legacy to uphold!  There is something to look back on one day and say you were proud to be involved with it.  That's the standard you want the next generation to follow.  And there are more people on the NHAHA board than not, that want those same things.

 

One black bear “professional” will take a salary 30x more than what my stipend was, and that cost will come back directly to the families.  And consider, there is definitely more than one Black Bear Professional involved here …  

 

I can tell you, in my experience, you can be considered a professional and still be bad at what you do.  I worked pretty closely with several Black Bear “professionals”. One is stretched so thin between running the Little Pens Program, coaching Esmark, Coaching High School, doing Zamboni cuts, etc.  that I really challenge his ability to grow the Huskies program.  And, as for his boss, well… That guy has yet to commit to anything he said he would ever do for NHAHA. 

 

You don’t have to look far on social media to find the negatives on Black Bear run programs. Knowing the people they have slated to run the Huskies, if NHAHA can not supply teams for my kids next season, then I believe anywhere is better than the Huskies.

 

Black Bears ultimate goal is to take control of youth hockey in the region.  They are working to get PAHL’s bylaws changed to allow Black Bear controlled groups to compete until they have a strong enough grasp on the region then PAHL will cease to exist.  

 

At the rate we are going, all of you with kids in youth hockey will be herded to a black bear facility to feed their money machine, sooner than later.  Pay more, get less, and still get the same coaches as before! 

 

Either step up now, or let Corporate America herd you like sheep!  Rant Over!!!

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1 hour ago, Deke715 said:

Going back to the Black Bear take over of PIA and NHAHA.  Like another person on this post I represent the NHAHA board of directors. 

 

Black bear made their announcement via social media days after the Christmas break and days before the start of the new year.  Which anyone in hockey knows that it’s time to start planning for next year.  This was a calculated move to disrupt the NHAHA board and families. At the last meeting we had with Scott Branovan and the Black Bear Co. we were working out a management agreement between NHAHA and Black Bear.  We were completely blindsided when the hammer fell on social media.  

 

Many can speculate who is at fault, but not many of you know the content of our conversations and the lack of decency that emulates from the Black Bear Sports group representatives. 

 

I completely understand that Black Bear bought a broken ice rink and had to dump big money into keeping it operational.  So now they need to completely control the ice hockey product so that they know what needs to be charged per family to protect their P&L and keep their investors happy.  

 

There was a middle ground here though.  There could have been a collective effort that would have benefited everyone, and we discussed that at length!  After-all we still gave them upwards of a million dollars in ice this season.  There is more than enough ice to go around at PIA.  The Huskies are not going to turn into an instant success.  

 

I’ve seen people on here talking about NHAHA’s declining membership, and there is some truth there but…  We weeded through most of that and were turning the corner.  We’ve seen significant growth in our grass-roots program this season.  

 

 

FYI for the person that claims no Vipers player has made it to Esmark in the past decade, my child did!  Then he was given CJ Stellebotte for a head coach, but that is a story for another time!

 

I hear the argument that Black Bear and their “paid professionals” will do a much better job than a Board composed of “parents & dads”. Nepotism is going to exist regardless of who is collecting the tuition checks.  Black Bear coaches are still going to consist of dads making teams with kids that they want their kids playing with.  At least with NHAHA we always tried to keep that process transparent.  As a volunteer this past season, I’ve assisted in coaching on multiple teams, ran a portion of our program, set up Open House events, organizational picnics, put together marketing flyers, and managed overall organizational communications while accepting a stipend of $1200 for the season.  I didn’t do all of this selfishly for my kids.  If the stipend were gone, I still would have done it!  I wanted our families to feel like they are part of something bigger.  As the oldest running non-profit youth hockey organization in PA, there is a legacy to uphold!  There is something to look back on one day and say you were proud to be involved with it.  That's the standard you want the next generation to follow.  And there are more people on the NHAHA board than not, that want those same things.

 

One black bear “professional” will take a salary 30x more than what my stipend was, and that cost will come back directly to the families.  And consider, there is definitely more than one Black Bear Professional involved here …  

 

I can tell you, in my experience, you can be considered a professional and still be bad at what you do.  I worked pretty closely with several Black Bear “professionals”. One is stretched so thin between running the Little Pens Program, coaching Esmark, Coaching High School, doing Zamboni cuts, etc.  that I really challenge his ability to grow the Huskies program.  And, as for his boss, well… That guy has yet to commit to anything he said he would ever do for NHAHA. 

 

You don’t have to look far on social media to find the negatives on Black Bear run programs. Knowing the people they have slated to run the Huskies, if NHAHA can not supply teams for my kids next season, then I believe anywhere is better than the Huskies.

 

Black Bears ultimate goal is to take control of youth hockey in the region.  They are working to get PAHL’s bylaws changed to allow Black Bear controlled groups to compete until they have a strong enough grasp on the region then PAHL will cease to exist.  

 

At the rate we are going, all of you with kids in youth hockey will be herded to a black bear facility to feed their money machine, sooner than later.  Pay more, get less, and still get the same coaches as before! 

 

Either step up now, or let Corporate America herd you like sheep!  Rant Over!!!

So a disgruntled parent that is mad at a "real" coach for cutting her crappy kid that made Esmark because she was on the board. ✔️✔️✔️

If you were just happy to volunteer your time and would have done it without the stipend then you could have chose to decline it but you accepted it with no problem.

It is your choice to take your kid wherever you/they want to play. If you don't like the Huskies because they made a deal before NHAHA then blame the board members for dragging their feet.

You are upset because your kid didn't make Esmark when they brought a new coach in then why not have them try out for another AAA team right down the road? Probably because you knew your kid shouldn't have been on that team and that stipend was to good to pass up.

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6 minutes ago, Pucks11 said:

So a disgruntled parent that is mad at a "real" coach for cutting her crappy kid that made Esmark because she was on the board. ✔️✔️✔️

If you were just happy to volunteer your time and would have done it without the stipend then you could have chose to decline it but you accepted it with no problem.

It is your choice to take your kid wherever you/they want to play. If you don't like the Huskies because they made a deal before NHAHA then blame the board members for dragging their feet.

You are upset because your kid didn't make Esmark when they brought a new coach in then why not have them try out for another AAA team right down the road? Probably because you knew your kid shouldn't have been on that team and that stipend was to good to pass up.

Pretty sure you missed multiple points here.  Frankly, I have no interest in engaging with your any further.  I'm pretty sure you're the reason I have to look both ways while entering a roundabout!  Take care!

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Interesting perspective @Deke715, thanks for sharing.

In the NAHA talks with Black Bear, was AHF discussed? Did they make it clear they had the intention of moving NAHA out of PAHL and into the AHF?

Did you get any sense that Esmark was on the move to a new a new rink (Printscape) like some others have speculated?

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3 minutes ago, RJUSHL said:

Interesting perspective @Deke715, thanks for sharing.

In the NAHA talks with Black Bear, was AHF discussed? Did they make it clear they had the intention of moving NAHA out of PAHL and into the AHF?

Did you get any sense that Esmark was on the move to a new a new rink (Printscape) like some others have speculated?

The Esmark rumor going to Printscape or any other rink has been around for years so I personally put no stock in it whatsoever. 
 

As for BB, when we asked about PAHL, we were told “we will handle PAHL” and when asked to elaborate we were told again “don’t worry, we will handle PAHL”. There were no definitive details given by them on anything, actually. Personally, I now believe these meetings were all smoke and mirrors to keep us on the line incase Huskies fell through. So, they didn’t give very many details other than how much their investors spent.

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14 hours ago, RJUSHL said:

Interesting perspective @Deke715, thanks for sharing.

In the NAHA talks with Black Bear, was AHF discussed? Did they make it clear they had the intention of moving NAHA out of PAHL and into the AHF?

Did you get any sense that Esmark was on the move to a new a new rink (Printscape) like some others have speculated?

Honestly, like AMR24 said, all of the discussion with BB was that nothing would change.  They would somehow convince PAHL to change their by-laws, and would take full control of our operations. Make the charter "for-profit".  Never really laid out any strategy/business plan/development plan for us.  Just said, Because it's them, that it would happen.  

The very second you walk into PIA you are faced with AHF propaganda littered everywhere.  Banners, info on prompters, etc.  You know instantly what their endgame is…

As of today, Esmark is still attached to NHAHA.  I've been assured that they wish to stay that way.  I do not believe there is any merit in Esmark moving to Printscape.  My opinion, if they did have to align with a Black Bear controlled group, or South Pgh for instance, I believe they would still operate out of PIA.  No inside information there.  Again, just my opinion.

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24 minutes ago, Deke715 said:

Honestly, like AMR24 said, all of the discussion with BB was that nothing would change.  They would somehow convince PAHL to change their by-laws, and would take full control of our operations. Make the charter "for-profit".  Never really laid out any strategy/business plan/development plan for us.  Just said, Because it's them, that it would happen.  

The very second you walk into PIA you are faced with AHF propaganda littered everywhere.  Banners, info on prompters, etc.  You know instantly what their endgame is…

As of today, Esmark is still attached to NHAHA.  I've been assured that they wish to stay that way.  I do not believe there is any merit in Esmark moving to Printscape.  My opinion, if they did have to align with a Black Bear controlled group, or South Pgh for instance, I believe they would still operate out of PIA.  No inside information there.  Again, just my opinion.

Sounds like there are still a whole lot of moving parts in the situation at PIA with Black Bear.  I'm guessing that because Allegheny and South Pittsburgh have so many teams they didn't want to upset the Apple cart.  They are getting enough revenue from ice rental with them. Unfortunately NHAHA is in a down cycle and they think they can do better.  Big question is how are they going to attract kids.  They will need to get some from all of the area rinks to play for them.  I hope they have a marketing strategy to get kids to move.   I haven't easily seen costs to play by organizations. How many parents determine where their kids will play based on costs?  Or is it more location? Don't most A and B level players just play at the closest rinks?  How many strong organizations can Western Pa support?  What are the strongest organizations?  Anybody care to put out a top ten?  Who is the best PAHL org?

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12 minutes ago, hockeyisgreat said:

Sounds like there are still a whole lot of moving parts in the situation at PIA with Black Bear.  I'm guessing that because Allegheny and South Pittsburgh have so many teams they didn't want to upset the Apple cart.  They are getting enough revenue from ice rental with them. Unfortunately NHAHA is in a down cycle and they think they can do better.  Big question is how are they going to attract kids.  They will need to get some from all of the area rinks to play for them.  I hope they have a marketing strategy to get kids to move.   I haven't easily seen costs to play by organizations. How many parents determine where their kids will play based on costs?  Or is it more location? Don't most A and B level players just play at the closest rinks?  How many strong organizations can Western Pa support?  What are the strongest organizations?  Anybody care to put out a top ten?  Who is the best PAHL org?

I don't think they need to "upset the apple cart" with those programs,  All they need to do is pick off the low hanging fruit with organizations like NHAHA, Mon Valley, Youngstown; and a few others yet to come, I'm sure.  And soon there won't be a variety of teams left in PAHL. Programs like Allegheny & South Pitt. will want to go to the AHF because that's where the competition will be. 

Pittsburgh Ice Arena is in a lousy location.  Like the Viper Stars model or not, it was the ability for families to have teams almost tailor made to their needs.  Budgets were always a template, they were adjusted according to what each team collectively wanted.  As for the Vipers, until BB took over, we tried extremely hard to make it the budget friendly program because the board always recognized the demographic, and location (What's the benefit of driving past multiple ice rinks on main highways to come to New Kensington).  Black Bear made it impossible for us to offer ice competitive to what our closest rivals were doing. 

I always looked at the Viper Stars as a growth model more than a letter designation.  (I've seen AAA teams locally that would be singe A in PAHL)  So all of the complaints that Viper Stars don't always field AA teams kind of falls deaf on me.  It allowed kids that wanted to do more with hockey the ability to bridge the gap between Rec. hockey and the rigors of a full AAA independent schedule.  Find where their path leads them.  

A and B level players (and 95% of all players for that matter) just want to play with their friends.  Where ever that may be, within reason. 

All of BB's programs are based off of a cookie cutter platform, aside from the personnel (which hasn't impressed me), costs are what they are, and ice time is uniform throughout.  You can quite literally go anywhere else in Pittsburgh and get what they are offering.  Just have to find a coach worth following these days, I guess.  Play for little Billy's dad for your entire career, until he cuts your kid or you determine your kid is better than Billy and you need to find another team that appreciates Jimmy's talents more.  

I do believe that organizational success in the city is based a lot on location, but I believe the best organization is a matter of debate based on what birth year you ask.  Non-profits should all be very similar in how they operate from a board perspective.  What makes a great organization?  Ability to fundraise, a renowned head of coaches, paid non parent coaches, prestige? 

Not many programs are able to retain birth year teams for multiple seasons.  Players constantly in the "transfer portal"!  Every organization, it feels like, is offering AAA these days. I do not believe we will see "top 10" type teams coming out of the Pittsburgh area consistently unless things change.   

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43 minutes ago, Deke715 said:

I don't think they need to "upset the apple cart" with those programs,  All they need to do is pick off the low hanging fruit with organizations like NHAHA, Mon Valley, Youngstown; and a few others yet to come, I'm sure.  And soon there won't be a variety of teams left in PAHL. Programs like Allegheny & South Pitt. will want to go to the AHF because that's where the competition will be. 

Pittsburgh Ice Arena is in a lousy location.  Like the Viper Stars model or not, it was the ability for families to have teams almost tailor made to their needs.  Budgets were always a template, they were adjusted according to what each team collectively wanted.  As for the Vipers, until BB took over, we tried extremely hard to make it the budget friendly program because the board always recognized the demographic, and location (What's the benefit of driving past multiple ice rinks on main highways to come to New Kensington).  Black Bear made it impossible for us to offer ice competitive to what our closest rivals were doing. 

I always looked at the Viper Stars as a growth model more than a letter designation.  (I've seen AAA teams locally that would be singe A in PAHL)  So all of the complaints that Viper Stars don't always field AA teams kind of falls deaf on me.  It allowed kids that wanted to do more with hockey the ability to bridge the gap between Rec. hockey and the rigors of a full AAA independent schedule.  Find where their path leads them.  

A and B level players (and 95% of all players for that matter) just want to play with their friends.  Where ever that may be, within reason. 

All of BB's programs are based off of a cookie cutter platform, aside from the personnel (which hasn't impressed me), costs are what they are, and ice time is uniform throughout.  You can quite literally go anywhere else in Pittsburgh and get what they are offering.  Just have to find a coach worth following these days, I guess.  Play for little Billy's dad for your entire career, until he cuts your kid or you determine your kid is better than Billy and you need to find another team that appreciates Jimmy's talents more.  

I do believe that organizational success in the city is based a lot on location, but I believe the best organization is a matter of debate based on what birth year you ask.  Non-profits should all be very similar in how they operate from a board perspective.  What makes a great organization?  Ability to fundraise, a renowned head of coaches, paid non parent coaches, prestige? 

Not many programs are able to retain birth year teams for multiple seasons.  Players constantly in the "transfer portal"!  Every organization, it feels like, is offering AAA these days. I do not believe we will see "top 10" type teams coming out of the Pittsburgh area consistently unless things change.   

I pretty much agree with everything you are saying! Except the last sentence!  Last year we had a 16U Tier II win a National championship and a 14U finish 2nd from 2 different organizations.  They must be doing something right.  I also believe their are some Tier 2 teams in the top 25 from 16U this year!  Not sure about 14U!  Maybe the next 10 years will see a decline because of BB. But only time will tell!   And what things need to change?  Pretty sure BB is here to stay!

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36 minutes ago, PUCKCOVID19 said:

to bad AIRPORT ice Arena isnt around bc we all know Black Bear would have scooped that rink up asap 

Correct, they were just a little late to the expansion game, and too bad for that.  Hated to lose a decent double sheet of ice.  That rink had a lot possibility with a little TLC by the owners.

 

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1 hour ago, hockeyisgreat said:

I pretty much agree with everything you are saying! Except the last sentence!  Last year we had a 16U Tier II win a National championship and a 14U finish 2nd from 2 different organizations.  They must be doing something right.  I also believe their are some Tier 2 teams in the top 25 from 16U this year!  Not sure about 14U!  Maybe the next 10 years will see a decline because of BB. But only time will tell!   And what things need to change?  Pretty sure BB is here to stay!

I agree with you to an extent.  Arrows have a great reputation for tier 2 16 & 18u teams.  I did hear the 14u Badgers team got dismantled after last season.  I believe certain aspects of certain organizations have at least found lightning in a bottle, or have the personnel in place for certain age groups.  I've seen recently a good bit of Pittsburgh born players starting to crack USHlL tier 1 rosters.  Pittsburgh isn't a bad place for youth hockey. It could just be better, I think.  Black Bear is here to stay!  Wish I knew what changes would positively effect the area. I don't know if setting regional boundaries for AAA teams such as what the do in Dallas, Detroit, etc. would benefit us.  Requiring that PPE only recruit prospects from this region, idk? People much smarter than me need to determine what those changes are that really push Western Pa forward. I see that consistently Reapers, Mission, Fury, Storm, always manage to be at the top.  Again, not sure what they do in Chicago but it isn't Black Bear and their "paid professionals" pushing them to the top of the amateur rankings.  I do not believe a Black Bear take over is the solution, thats all.

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On 1/9/2023 at 10:10 AM, hockeyisgreat said:

Ok, so what is so bad about PAHL?  What are the suggestions to make it better? Other than the Fair Play Points what are the other problems?  Seems like a decent league for kids who want to stay local to play!  

If you look at the U18 rankings - a few Pahl AA teams with those “weaker” schedules are ranked higher than the predators “aaa” team. 

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4 hours ago, hockeyisgreat said:

 Don't most A and B level players just play at the closest rinks?  

As someone else said, they want to play with their friends. However, one beef I have with the current system in PAHL is how many levels there are in A. A major, A minor. Then black, gold, white. So 6 variations of A. Why so many? When I was involved, it was AAA, AA, A, and B. AAA did have birth year teams, but no one else really did. I guess you could make a case for a birth year team in a "nationals bound" AA program, but why bother at A? Nowadays, they don't even use B for 18U or 16U, presumably so no one's feelings get hurt by being on a B team, but who are you really fooling by splitting A up into so many slices?

The problem with this is you end up with a division that has teams from Erie driving to Morgantown and/or State College, and you have teams from the South Hills not playing each other. I agree that you don't want every game to be an 14-0 blowout, but it seems like there is too much effort to call everyone A and then have to align each division to make every single game "fair". If you use bigger buckets, you'll probably let it even out.

I think this is a part of the reason everyone feels they have to have a "hybrid" team and invent other reasons to say their team is better even though they are just "A". Some of the better "A" teams should just be in AA. I don't really care if they self-declare themselves to be AA. If they think they are good, they can play AA and get destroyed every game if they aren't self-aware enough to place themselves correctly. 
 

Edited by Spear and Magic Helmet
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