Black Bear Starting to move in on Youth Hockey??

[forbin]

@Spear and Magic Helmet I agree that PAHL splits it up too much, however (looking at 14U this year) the top A major team is an 84.92 MHR and the weakest A minor team is a 71.85 MHR. You wouldn't want those two teams ever playing each other. Wouldn't be fun for either group. So therefore splitting it up the way its now does actually make sense. The geographical locations of the teams does come into play though you're right. We have been in a PAHL division with Erie/Altoona/State College. Sucks making those drives for one game.

I find it REALLY interesting that both of the organizations that BB has recently acquired (Huskies and Mon Valley) advertise that they are a significantly cheaper option than other clubs. I wonder if that changes now. I'm sure it will, but by how much?

We have about 4-6 weeks until most orgs will announce their tryout dates for next season.  Will be interesting to see where the BB teams and rinks fall into place within this time frame. 

[Lucky17]

8 minutes ago, forbin said:

The geographical locations of the teams does come into play though you're right. We have been in a PAHL division with Erie/Altoona/State College. Sucks making those drives for one game.

One solution for that would be to bring multiple teams together in one rink and have each team play 2 games.  Example, Altoona hosts 1 week and draws in Erie, Preds, Morgantown, Badgers and Youngstown.  Each team plays 2 games at Altoona that count toward the PAHL schedule.  The following week, the Preds could host 5 other teams from the division.  In divisions where there are teams from all over, it could significantly cut down on travel.  Would require some serious planning from PAHL, but I’ve seen it done elsewhere with big geographical separation between clubs.

[Spear and Magic Helmet]

15 minutes ago, forbin said:

@Spear and Magic Helmet I agree that PAHL splits it up too much, however (looking at 14U this year) the top A major team is an 84.92 MHR and the weakest A minor team is a 71.85 MHR. You wouldn't want those two teams ever playing each other. Wouldn't be fun for either group. So therefore splitting it up the way its now does actually make sense. The geographical locations of the teams does come into play though you're right. We have been in a PAHL division with Erie/Altoona/State College. Sucks making those drives for one game.

I find it REALLY interesting that both of the organizations that BB has recently acquired (Huskies and Mon Valley) advertise that they are a significantly cheaper option than other clubs. I wonder if that changes now. I'm sure it will, but by how much?

We have about 4-6 weeks until most orgs will announce their tryout dates for next season.  Will be interesting to see where the BB teams and rinks fall into place within this time frame. 

That is a good point about the MHR, and I agree that the worst and best in all of 14U A would be a pretty uneven matchup. I'm not totally against having 2 or even 3 A divisions. I just think 6-8 is too many and probably includes some teams that would be OK in AA.

Edited January 12, 2023 by Spear and Magic Helmet

[forbin]

11 minutes ago, Lucky17 said:

One solution for that would be to bring multiple teams together in one rink and have each team play 2 games.  Example, Altoona hosts 1 week and draws in Erie, Preds, Morgantown, Badgers and Youngstown.  Each team plays 2 games at Altoona that count toward the PAHL schedule.  The following week, the Preds could host 5 other teams from the division.  In divisions where there are teams from all over, it could significantly cut down on travel.  Would require some serious planning from PAHL, but I’ve seen it done elsewhere with big geographical separation between clubs.

Ironically enough - that seems to be exactly what the AHF does for the mandatory showcase weekends that are included in their season....

[Lucky17]

2 hours ago, forbin said:

Ironically enough - that seems to be exactly what the AHF does for the mandatory showcase weekends that are included in their season....

Isn’t that just their AAA league though?

[forbin]

18 minutes ago, Lucky17 said:

Isn’t that just their AAA league though?

Not according to their website. Its for all divisions. They play a lot more regular season games than PAHL as well, and judging from the schedule it looks like most regular season games are 2 games in one day. 

 

[Rebel Panther]

On 11/17/2022 at 7:16 AM, RJUSHL said:

Wow, that is something new. Anyone on the board with the Badgers know what this is about?

It's interesting they list the Badgers and the Youth Phantoms, but not the Rebellion or Vipers. All four play in Black Bear rinks.

Back to what started this thread, did the Allegheny Badgers give full control of their club to Black Bear as the Black Bear website seems to indicate?

Edited January 13, 2023 by Rebel Panther

[Icebucket]

8 hours ago, Danner27 said:

If you look at the U18 rankings - a few Pahl AA teams with those “weaker” schedules are ranked higher than the predators “aaa” team. 

I've seen quite a few u18 games this season. I'd feel comfortable saying the top 2 teams roll over the preds AAA team, and the rest of PAHL would all play competitive games with them.

Mt Lebo should be very much in the running to compete at nationals if they can get through playdowns. They are a very solid team top to bottom, and their #1 goalie is top notch.

[Offsides]

What was the big Frozen Pond announcement.

[Deke715]

14 hours ago, Rebel Panther said:

Back to what started this thread, did the Allegheny Badgers give full control of their club to Black Bear as the Black Bear website seems to indicate?

I believe that Black Bear employees control the Badgers board.  So they control the Badgers but do not own them.  Sure sounds like a conflict of interest, doesn't it?!?

[nemesis8679]

4 hours ago, Deke715 said:

I believe that Black Bear employees control the Badgers board.  So they control the Badgers but do not own them.  Sure sounds like a conflict of interest, doesn't it?!?

Too be honest, maybe having BB employees in charge will clean up that garbage organization and the homer refs will be reigned in. 

[Lifelongbender]

46 minutes ago, nemesis8679 said:

Too be honest, maybe having BB employees in charge will clean up that garbage organization and the homer refs will be reigned in. 

And once again it's proven that we can't have any kind of civilized discussion on this board for more than three posts.

It will be interesting to see how things develop over time if it is true that Black Bear controls the board for Allegheny as described above. As a misunderstood genius once said, "the times, they are a-becomin' quite different". These next few years should prove to be fascinating for hockey players in SWPA.

[Wes]

5 hours ago, nemesis8679 said:

Too be honest, maybe having BB employees in charge will clean up that garbage organization and the homer refs will be reigned in. 

Not sure what levels you had problems with Homer Refs at Center Ice.  My son played there and I pretty much felt we always got reverse homered in our own rink. (this was at 14aa, 16aa and 18aa)...  By far the worst rinks in terms of homering were Indiana and Armstrong from ~2014-2020.

[Lucky17]

2 hours ago, Wes said:

Not sure what levels you had problems with Homer Refs at Center Ice.  My son played there and I pretty much felt we always got reverse homered in our own rink. (this was at 14aa, 16aa and 18aa)...  By far the worst rinks in terms of homering were Indiana and Armstrong from ~2014-2020.

Don’t leave out Altoona 

[HockeyFan6687]

8 hours ago, nemesis8679 said:

Too be honest, maybe having BB employees in charge will clean up that garbage organization and the homer refs will be reigned in. 

Organizations don’t have control as before and pretty much every rink has “homer” refs.  Just ask any visiting parent.  
 

I think it’s very unfair to place the kids in the middle of your slanderous comments.  

[HockeyFan6687]

33 minutes ago, Lucky17 said:

Don’t leave out Altoona 

Especially in the days of Dave Weaver.  He booked the refs!

[ZamboniRocks]

On 1/13/2023 at 2:05 PM, Lifelongbender said:

And once again it's proven that we can't have any kind of civilized discussion on this board for more than three posts.

It will be interesting to see how things develop over time if it is true that Black Bear controls the board for Allegheny as described above. As a misunderstood genius once said, "the times, they are a-becomin' quite different". These next few years should prove to be fascinating for hockey players in SWPA.

I’ve been told there’s actually 2 boards at Allegheny. One that functions somewhat like your traditional board & the other one is an operational board that is totally hush hush. If there’s influence, it’s on that board not the other one

[No Politics]

I don't know why people keep glossing over the point that so many here are trying -- respectfully -- to make:

Take Black Bear's name out of it and look at everything objectively.  I've had multiple kids go through multiple PAHL programs. Some were good for some of my kids, some were bad for others.  It ALWAYS came down to politics when things went bad.  Never an exception.  Bad coaches focusing only on their kid or the kids in their family's clique, bad board members killing entire teams because their kid got beat out (so create one gigantic team with cuts instead of two smaller teams without cuts), etc.

And spare me the "it's the parents taking their kids from team-to-team trying to be the next Crosby" talk.  Those parents exist, but folks on this board like expanding the actions of a small minority to EVERY parent out there.  I don't know how many kids you all had go through more than one PAHL program, but I have met hundreds of family members over my kids' "careers," and those "next Crosby" parents are few and far between. I would wager that probably AT LEAST seven out of every ten kids/parents could care less, and would be glad staying at one program from 8U through 18U to play with their buddies if they could.

That excuse -- and that's what it is -- is what organizations use when they crap the bed and want to blame someone else. The sad truth is that most of those "program hoppers" are not only FORCED to leave a bad situation -- or quit the game altogether -- but they're now being blamed and labeled for it, too!  Damn.  And we are for the kids?

Where is the accountability?  Deke... AMR and I have had good conversations about what is happening at the Vipers.  All I am hearing from you is:  Black Bear is bad.  I looked up the Vipers 990 returns (non-profit tax returns), and you guys were losing money hand over fist well before Black Bear even bought that rink.  Your numbers have decreased dramatically.  A few years ago one of my children played there, and there were tons of teams at all age groups there.  I looked on your website and saw three.  Is that Black Bear's fault?

Not trying to belittle you or your program.  I just don't know how you can pin that all on Black Bear.  There has to be a "my bad" in there somewhere, and I think that is what is lacking in almost every program, not just yours.

This is why so many of us are interested in seeing Black Bear's model.  I personally am so sick of hearing "there's politics everywhere."  I say that because there doesn't need to be, and we all know that.  I've seen organizations where there are no politics.  Board President's kid sucks, so Board president's kid doesn't play as much.  Board President backs the decision of the coaches.  Contrary to popular belief, that does happen!  Just not often enough.  Whose fault is that?  Asshat board members, coaches, etc. who would rather destroy a program than upset the little fiefdom they are trying to create.

If there ARE politics everywhere, that plays right into the Black Bear model.  If people equal profit, and politics forces people (profit) away, Black Bear would therefore not play into politics, right?  I mean, we can't have our cake and eat it, too.  We can't say "Black Bear is all about profit," and "politics will still happen under Black Bear."  The two concepts don't jibe.  

[AMR24]

I’m not sure how to phrase this so bare with me a minute…

1 thing we haven’t brought into the conversation is perception. What’s that saying? A person’s perception is their reality.

I have been around a long time. My oldest has played at 3 different organizations and from B hockey to college. I have seen a ton of legit concerns and a ton of perceived concerns. 

We’ve all heard “that kid is only on that team because his parents are (fill in the blank)”. And, in some cases, it’s legit. Sometimes, it is not. But to the person that believes that statement, whether true or false, that is their reality. And their decisions are based on their own reality.

Same goes with the parents who organization shop. It’s usually done on the perception that they can get on a higher level team elsewhere. And this does happen way more often than not. I can sit here and think of at least a dozen families I personally know from different organizations that my youngest has played with/against that has said “we wanted him/her on a higher team so we left”. Sometimes it works in their favor, sometimes it doesn’t. I see it in ice and dek. It is the nature of the beast. Now a days, parents want their kids to be the best at everything and have the means/options to make that happen.

So when we talk about politics within a board, we can’t ignore the fact that some things viewed as political/self serving may not necessarily be that. 

[No Politics]

AMR, I understand what you are saying, and agree in part, and disagree in part.  What I am sharing is not the perceived variety.  It is the observed truth that I have witnessed with my own eyes.  And -- quite honestly -- I am not even talking about my own kids.  

I think when we can look at OTHER kids/families and say "boy... that kid is getting ripped off by the coach," it isn't perceived.  One of my sons once played for a 16U team where the coaches said "ice time must be earned."  Fair enough.  I agree with that 100%.  But when the head coach's son is out there coasting -- noticeably -- and is getting on the PP unit, but other kids who are playing harder -- noticeably -- are getting passed over for the coach's kid, what are we to say?  That's just the parent's perception?  That's just how we see it, but it isn't reality?

I was an assistant coach on that team.  I saw that happen with my own eyes, and when I brought the inequity/unfairness/hypocrisy to light -- to the HC himself ONLY -- I was actually reprimanded by the board when the coach brought it to their buddies on that board.  How dare I stick up for the kids instead of going along with his personal favoritism!  I resigned rather than be part of that nonsense.

Perception?

Now I will share that the organization in question -- not yours -- can't keep players and is currently hanging by a thread.  In my opinion, deservedly so.  We left after that season, and so did seven other families from that team.

If boards stand by and do nothing when OBVIOUS political actions are taking place, then people leave.  Simple as that.  

That is why I would disagree with your comment that organization shopping "happens more often than not" because of wanting to play at a higher level.  More often than not -- from my family and countless other friends' family experiences -- organization shopping happens when an obvious wrong isn't righted.

If it was just one troublemaking family's perception that their kid is being mistreated, just that kid would leave, not eight players.  When you see organizations losing families/teams in droves, it isn't because parents believe their kids are AAA players, and -- again -- I am tired of hearing that as an excuse for mismanagement.

Again, I am the president of a youth soccer board and we do not have those problems.  Why?  Because I -- and the other board members -- don't tolerate it.  Our program?  Growing exponentially.

[Happy Hockey Fan]

There are definitely bad actors in all aspects of youth hockey. There are coaches that play their kids way more than they. There are coaches that will pick their teams by who they are friends with and pass over kids that are better than the ones they pick. There are board members that allow this to happen time and again. These are reasons people leave organizations. I don’t think these are perceived slights, I believe it happens all the time. There are also parents that team shop for the highest placement also. But any coach that is involved with youth athletics should be concerned about the development of all the kids in their charge. When a parent sees that a coach or board members don’t act in the best interest of all the kids, people leave. 
 

 

[AMR24]

@No Politics, maybe I’m just cynical. I’ve been involved with dek hockey for over 10 years, building up an organization. And if you think ice hockey has politics, spend a summer on a tournament dek hockey team or sit in on a board meeting for the league. It’s astonishing. Maybe I’m just worn down. I just have heard the phrase “I want my kid on a higher level team” so many times. And, like most things, the negative stuff just sticks and rings in your head, ya know.

End of day, I’m not opposed to the Black Bear model. I just honestly don’t think think they are the best ones for the job. I’ve spent time in meetings listening to them. Once they get Huskies up and running, they’ll move on and leave it to the parents to run. You will still have the parent coach who plays their kid too much. And your complaint will fall into deaf ears because by that time, they’ve moved on and their energy will be focused on their next conquest.

[hockeyisgreat]

1 hour ago, AMR24 said:

your complaint will fall into deaf ears

Isn't that what happens anyway at most organizations now?  Isn't that how most people get involved with organizations anyway? PIA just put out their summer programming with no mention of NHAHA.  Do you guys have any plans anywhere else?

[RegDunlop7]

;

Edited March 15, 2023 by RegDunlop7

[HSFBLJ]

Black Bear could be the solution to the PPE problem-