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42 minutes ago, Flavio said:

Printscape is a big fat no from Flavio and a host of others. I hope Blackbear and Esmark put feelers out prior to every attempting something like that, for their own good. South Hills people will still be 30-40 min away because of traffic and back roads. Anyone living in the south hills knows that it’s a lost cause any way you stretch it. People living in Castle Shannon can have a hard time getting to ice castle due to the roads and traffic.  The entire area is over populated and crowded. 

I live in South Hills now and it has never taken me more than 20 minutes to get to Ice Castle, YMCA, Lebo, RMU, or Southpointe but maybe I bought the perfect house. I think without mapping it I can get to Baierl, Pens, Beaver, Rostraver, Alpha, Armory, Allegheny Badgers, Wheeling, and Butler Valley in less time.  Am I forgetting any? 

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40 minutes ago, Flavio said:

That’s a bit of hyperbole. Whatever the case, most people cannot make it to every area rink in 20 minutes or less. I’ve lived 20 min from ice castle and it’s taken me 35 to get there due to 88.  

Go around 88.  Depending on where you live it isn't hard to avoid.  Same with 19.  

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I’m old enough NOT to remember what this site was originally called 5-6-7-8 years ago or whatever changed about it.
 

Anyway, back then yuri did read this place but never had an account or posted. I don’t even remember my old account!  Yuri and I talked about this site a few times back in the day. 
 

Though I haven’t spoken to yuri in about 5 years, I highly doubt that’s him posting. I’d be really shocked if it was. If you’ve ever exchanged emails with yuri, you would know he writes a bit different than he talks in person. 

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3 hours ago, Danner27 said:

 

Though I haven’t spoken to yuri in about 5 years, I highly doubt that’s him posting. I’d be really shocked if it was. If you’ve ever exchanged emails with yuri, you would know he writes a bit different than he talks in person. 

I also assumed that was someone else. I agree, he writes like someone whose first language is not English. And he is professional in his dealings with you, doesn't fit the personality to post this dumb stuff.

All these arguments about best location boil down to....no matter where you locate, due to our area's difficult terrain and roads, you are going have a segment who does not come. Maybe one of the reasons Esmark does not have strong teams below 14u is ....kids start driving themselves. So mom and dad don't have to drive them all the time to PIA. 

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On 2/8/2023 at 9:02 AM, No Politics said:

PIA, Southpointe... it's all perspective, guys.  

I live in the North Hills and HATED driving to Printscape, the YMCA, or Ice Castle.  Folks living in the South Hills I'm sure HATE driving to PIA, Frozen Pond, or the Belmont.

One of my sons played for the Arrows.  I heard all the time how far away the Belmont is.  When 28 isn't under construction -- insert joke here -- it only takes forty minutes to get there from downtown, though!

So it's all perspective based on where you live.  Simple as that.  To each their own.  

Makes me wonder why we don't have PAHL districts.  South Hills rinks work better for South Hills families, and North Hills Rinks work better for North Hills families.

It’s definitely a mindset. I grew up in the Mon valley and now live north. One hour and fifteen minute drive. All my family act as if I’m at the end of the Oregon trail and must spend the night if they are there later than 5pm. I’ve always said for them if you cross one bridge it’s okay. Two bridges you might be going for the day. Three bridges is over night. Add a tunnel and it’s vacation. 

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Well, it seems to me clear that there are really two concentrations of hockey players in the city - in the South Hills between Canonsburg and TJ, and in the north hills between Cranberry and Harmarville. Clearly there are players all over the city, but in general people are traveling to these areas to play, especially at the highest level. Since we all agree that PIA is in a less advantageous area, and since PIA, Alpha, and Lemieux, are both a ways north of the city, it certainly appears that establishing a Tier 1 or higher Tier 2 presence south of the city would attract some players who are currently driving north a nontrivial distance to practice and play.

A similar logic was used by the folks who established the Rebellion Independent 14U Girls Team - they realized that there are players in the South Hills that would try out for an independent national-bound team that was located in the South Hills if one existed. Nobody would argue that they are equivalent to the Pens Elite or Steel City Selects - and in general girls who make one of those two programs during tryouts go to those programs instead of Rebellion - but one does have to wonder what might happen if the Rebellion continues to enjoy success, and if the Rebellion organization is able to successfully support them despite BB buying their rink. I imagine that BB might try to establish their own national bound teams there eventually, or try to take over the Rebellion - rumors on this board certainly suggest that doing so is in BB's SOP. You can imagine that Esmark practicing there at least occasionally, or establishing teams there full-time, even, might be a step in that direction for BB.

The argument about whether the North Hills or the South Hills has the most good players is silly. In the South Hills you've got Peter's Township, Bethel Park, USC, TJ, etc., while in the north you have North Allegheny, Pine Richland, Seneca Valley, etc. Both areas are rich with good players. Nobody wants to drive across town in either direction for practices and games several times a week, but at our current moment it's mostly people driving north from the South Hills. Driving south is just as awful as driving north, it's just less common since the Tier 1 organizations are currently all north of the city. 

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Programs in the north have multiple traffic arteries going in their general direction. This alleviates traffic across the board. Not that you don’t hit traffic,  but you aren’t being funneled from various points- all to route 79. When you go to the south hills, you essential hit a bubble of residential and back roads. The south hills is the most populated area of the tri state area. Roads like 51 are over capacity and have been for 30 years, but they can’t do anything about it because there’s no room for widening anymore. Not that 51 is an artery anyway, but it sure contributes to the mess that is created and starts when you reach that south hills bubble. Southepointe is too far south. It’s only accessible via one highway or driving through the south hills. Everything leading to 79  for most people is a mess. Yes, folks coming from cranberry would be able to drive straight down 79. However this thing about hockey players being located in the south and north is conjecture. Not reality. The high level players are few and far between. There would be no rhyme or reason to where any of these kids are located. I’ve seen them come from everywhere over the years and can confidently say it’s random. Most of the legitimate AAA teams I’ve seen have kids from everywhere.Putting a tier 1 program in Southpointe will lead to it being watered down. There are too many established options and not enough Highway to get there for a good amount of the population. All of the Cranberry kids may be willing to drive there, but the high end kid who’s looking to play with similar players will still be staying in Cranberry or driving to New Ken. This groveling going on here is from people who are looking at it from their perspective and not a business perspective. Nobody who wants to have a successful Tier 1 program is operating out of Southpointe. 
 

Nobody wants to see a valiant effort put in to add more genuine competition to the AAA mix only to have it be undermined by poor location choice. Southpointe is a nightmare for everyone who isn’t driving from Cranberry or Upper St Clair. Draw a line directly down the middle of the city and stretch it 30 miles north and south. Everyone to the right of that line (and that’s even being generous), including some in south hills, are going to hit traffic patterns that make the drive to New Ken or Cranberry seem simple. 

 

 

Edited by Flavio
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IMO this is a ridiculous argument. People will make the drive wherever they have to for what they are looking for in a program. Some people value location more than others. Some people value ice time, or coaching, or like when the practice days/times are, or even status more than anything. There are a handful of folks who are driving to Cleveland 3-4 times a week so their kid can make Barons practices. There’s a family who is flying down to FLORIDA so their kid can play in games for the Alliance.

There is a family at Pens who lives in Morgantown. There’s a family at Rebellion who lives in Renfrew. I live in the south hills and drove to Alpha for a couple of years. Never met a hockey family that wouldn’t make a drive to play.
Ever been stuck in a PAHL division with Johnstown or Erie or State College and have to drive out there for one game? The shit we do for our kids is hilarious.

A funny somewhat related true story. I used to work in Southpointe before Covid and I worked with a guy who lived in Leechburg. Yes, he would drive from Leechburg to Southpointe every single day. Taking 28/376/79 every day for his 8:30-5 job. 

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According to others here. There’s many families in the south hills who won’t even think of driving anywhere but ice castle or Bethel. The kids are good enough to make the legit AAA squads..
 

Driving somewhere to support your family financially is hardly comparable to driving somewhere for a youth sport. Driving out to State College 4 days a season is also not comparable. I do agree that people go above and beyond for the kids. I don’t think the overall picture is being looked at. A tier 1 program based in Southpointe easily becomes third or 4th place amongst Tier 1 programs. It is simply logistics, why are all the programs in the north somehwere in the first place? Because people with business backgrounds looked at the layout of the land and decided that’s where they would be best suited to do business. A program in Southpointe can’t even get off its feet enough to prove they have good coaching, because people aren’t going to pass over the ease of getting to these other places compared to everyone being funneled to 79 S. And the hell it would take to get there from anyone not living within 8 miles of 79 S. Printscape was propped up by the Penguins for decades. There’s a reason why it’s down to one sheet and a soccer/lacrosse field. Nobody with a business background, a good one anyway, that’s looking to draw on a customer base from an entire region is going to put one in a spot without several major channels to get to that place. The South Hills kills any chance printscape has because it is a giant black hole of traffic spanning from Canonsburg to the Mon Valley with no HIGHWAYS. Florida and Cleveland do not rely on a kid, or a group of out of town kids to make their business break even. That’s a moot point. A team in Southepointe is not positioned to make people already going to New Ken and cranberry change their mind. That’s the point. I’m happy to revisit this topic down the line when there’s no Tier 1 program at printscape because Blackbear most likely has a person involved with enough sense to look at the map and see how tricky it becomes. A program at Southpointe lookong to operate at Tier 1 (meaning they are drawing from all over town) wouldn’t even be able to start practices until 7pm due to peoples physical ability to arrive there by 6:30. 7pm may even be pushing it. 

 

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1 hour ago, Flavio said:

According to others here. There’s many families in the south hills who won’t even think of driving anywhere but ice castle or Bethel. The kids are good enough to make the legit AAA squads..
 

Driving somewhere to support your family financially is hardly comparable to driving somewhere for a youth sport. Driving out to State College 4 days a season is also not comparable. I do agree that people go above and beyond for the kids. I don’t think the overall picture is being looked at. A tier 1 program based in Southpointe easily becomes third or 4th place amongst Tier 1 programs. It is simply logistics, why are all the programs in the north somehwere in the first place? Because people with business backgrounds looked at the layout of the land and decided that’s where they would be best suited to do business. A program in Southpointe can’t even get off its feet enough to prove they have good coaching, because people aren’t going to pass over the ease of getting to these other places compared to everyone being funneled to 79 S. And the hell it would take to get there from anyone not living within 8 miles of 79 S. Printscape was propped up by the Penguins for decades. There’s a reason why it’s down to one sheet and a soccer/lacrosse field. Nobody with a business background, a good one anyway, that’s looking to draw on a customer base from an entire region is going to put one in a spot without several major channels to get to that place. The South Hills kills any chance printscape has because it is a giant black hole of traffic spanning from Canonsburg to the Mon Valley with no HIGHWAYS. Florida and Cleveland do not rely on a kid, or a group of out of town kids to make their business break even. That’s a moot point. A team in Southepointe is not positioned to make people already going to New Ken and cranberry change their mind. That’s the point. I’m happy to revisit this topic down the line when there’s no Tier 1 program at printscape because Blackbear most likely has a person involved with enough sense to look at the map and see how tricky it becomes. A program at Southpointe lookong to operate at Tier 1 (meaning they are drawing from all over town) wouldn’t even be able to start practices until 7pm due to peoples physical ability to arrive there by 6:30. 7pm may even be pushing it. 

 

Geography is clearly not your strong suit. You have three main roads right by Southpointe... 79, the new toll road that goes to the airport, and 19. In what alternate universe do you think Alpha or PIA are better locations?!

Sure, every location is going to be good for some and bad for others, but we're speaking in general terms here. There are certain rinks that are just more convenient for more people. And this isn't much of a newsflash, but those rinks aren't Alpha or PIA.

And your "people with business background" argument is even more absurd. You see any giant new business parks in New Ken? Now what about Southpointe?

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50 minutes ago, RJUSHL said:

Geography is clearly not your strong suit. You have three main roads right by Southpointe... 79, the new toll road that goes to the airport, and 19. In what alternate universe do you think Alpha or PIA are better locations?!

Sure, every location is going to be good for some and bad for others, but we're speaking in general terms here. There are certain rinks that are just more convenient for more people. And this isn't much of a newsflash, but those rinks aren't Alpha or PIA.

And your "people with business background" argument is even more absurd. You see any giant business parks in Harmarville? How about New Ken? Now what about Southpointe?

How are people east of the city, even in the east part of the south hills… getting to Southpointe. Your approach here is so weird. 

People who work in those office parks generally move there. The comparisons with work and youth sports are two completely different things. One much more important than the other. It’s not grounds for an argument. 
 

People move and make major commutes to accommodate their jobs, they generally aren’t moving to accommodate a youth hockey program unless they have to. 
 

I’ll let you get back to schilling for a south hills program here like someone from blackbear is going to read your perturbed horse shit and think it’s a good idea lol 

Edited by Flavio
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I know you don't live in the south hills or like the south hills Flavio. That's fine. But man you really don't understand the layout of this city. Printscape is a vastly better drive for most people, whether they are in the south hills or not.

Here are all the AAA PIHL high schools. You know, the largest districts, with the most kids, and the most kids who play hockey. Distances are from the actual high school.

Peters Township
14 minutes to Printscape
53 minutes to PIA

Central Catholic
29 minutes to Printscape
31 minutes to PIA

Seneca Valley
42 minutes to Printscape
44 minutes to PIA

North Allegheny
38 minutes to Printscape
42 minutes to PIA

Pine Richland
42 minutes to Printscape
35 minutes to PIA

Upper St. Clair
15 minutes to Printscape
47 to PIA

Cathedral Prep
2 hr 9 minutes to Printscape
2 hr 12 minutes to PIA

Bethel Park
21 minutes to Printscape
49 minutes to PIA

Baldwin
32 minutes to Printscape
41 minutes to PIA

Canon Mac
10 minutes to Printscape
51 minutes to PIA

Mt. Lebanon
20 minutes to Printscape
40 to PIA

Please tell me again that PIA is an amazing location and Printscape is horrible for most people. One single school is closer to PIA than Printscape. One. And it's a 7 minute difference. This is honestly such a stupid thing to argue about. I should not have taken the time to do this.

Geographically speaking, I live roughly right in-between the two rinks. But the drive time is not even close. And notice that destinations even north of the city (NA, Seneca Valley, etc.) are closer to Printscape.

It's not difficult to understand. Not sure why it upsets you so much.

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Do those same treks at times when there’s traffic - or when people are on the roads. Not 7:30 at night. Anyway, like I said- feel free to continue your schilling unimpeded. I know there will never be a Tier 1 program in Southepointe lol 

 

It’s a bunch of South Hills people that are sour about not having their way. Not how the real world works. 

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You listed a bunch of south hills places too. There’s not enough kids there to create a rival team for the ppe or Esmark. Coming from further out at peak times is a nightmare. Driving through the south hills at times when people are on the road the most- which you didn’t list, is a nightmare. 
 

Pure delusion. And since when is route 19 a major artery. 

You people who want a team in printscape so bad should go be patrons there more often so they have the funds and a solid reason to not have one of their rinks set up as  a soccer field. Until then, write to your local politicians or go scream at Dave Kosick or Mario. Don’t waste Flavios time.

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I looked at a few - drive times at peak hour (Google Maps lets you do it, however it gives a big range, sometimes as much as an hour for the drive to New Ken because 28 is a cluster):

New Ken:

55 min Seneca and NA

1 hr 10 Lebo

1 hr 25 Moon

25 min Fox Chapel

1 hr 40 Bethel

1 hr 25 TJ

1 hr 15 Sewickly

25 Delmont

 

I would roughly draw a line around the city of Pittsburgh and everything North and East of the Rivers would be closer to New Kensington.  That makes Printscape (at peak traffic time) closer for the two largest programs (North Pittsburgh and SHAHA) and a huge swath of the top high schools and highest level PAHL programs.  Badgers, People who live in Fox Chapel, and Westmoreland would be the exceptions.  Even TJ was way closer to Printscape.  Also, as I mentioned, the drive times from the high schools/ice rinks in the area to Printscape were generally between 25-35 minutes anywhere south of the city and maxed out around 45 minutes from Seneca and North Allegheny.  Myabe you live in Westmoreland County?  

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I live in Mccandless. I’ve lived in the South Hills as well. I don’t have any skin in the game with PIA or Southpointe. As if any of that matters anyway. My job actually entails a lot of study around traffic flow and wait times etc. 

Flavio is done with this argument. Initially I was just trying to reason with some of the sentiment here. Now I see that this is an emotional issue, and no one can really see it clearly. As I said, draw a line down the center of the city- no one to the east of that is making it to Printscape in time for a skate. Unless that skate starts at 7:30-8pm. People to the east of the line are trekking through the south hills at peak hours or they are sitting in traffic through the city just to get to 79. 
 

But honestly, the building has one of two rinks converted to a soccer field. Enough said. Probably more realistic things to talk about here. 

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Some of you have latched on to this narrative that I’m pro PIA. I’m not, I’m just anti-Southpointe. It’s too far south west of the city and region as a whole. The only people that rink makes a real difference for is Peters Twn, Upper st Clair and canonsburg area. 
 

If you want to have another Pittsburgh predators or Shaha there, by all means. If we are talking a program on par with the ppe, it’s not possible. How many times do I have to say it…… there is a reason why all of these programs chose to operate north of the city….. driving north is easier due to multiple major arteries that spread traffic out. You don’t have to take Flavios word for it that nobody wants to set up shop down there. Look at what the current set up is? They’re all north? Why is that? I don’t see Alpha or PIA with a soccer field???? You all talk about PIA like it’s limping into business every morning…. Last I checked, there are two 200x85 sheets of ice available there. Not a girls middle school soccer team in sight.  Just the truth, the people occupying northern rinks aren’t at risk of having their rinks turn into a flag football field or a gym. 

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