PAHL Rankings

[Godzilla]

Can someone explain how PAHL does the rankings at the beginning of the season?  For instance there was a club that was advertising a AA team at a certain level.  The year prior they weren't AA.  Does PAHL take a look at the roster for the current year and then place them accordingly?  I just want to get a better understanding of the process.  

Thanks in advance!

[YardSale]

1 hour ago, Godzilla said:

Can someone explain how PAHL does the rankings at the beginning of the season?  For instance there was a club that was advertising a AA team at a certain level.  The year prior they weren't AA.  Does PAHL take a look at the roster for the current year and then place them accordingly?  I just want to get a better understanding of the process.  

Thanks in advance!

Organizations provide their anticipated level to PAHL.  PAHL looks at the roster and history of the players to place them where they think they belong.  The initial request of the organization is taken on to account.  Then placement games happen to make any final adjustments.

[sadday4hockey]

Most times that is a group of delusional parents of players who are NOT AA level but the parents will never accept. An organization will eventually agree to host their tryouts and when all is said and done, they are either placed in A Major where they belong or get into AA and have an awful season.

Some orgs will always have AA teams at all levels that matter and some will be facilitators of the delusion.

AA Orgs

North Pitt

Allegheny

SCIR

Preds

Southpointe

Foxes

 

Most others are a year to year crap shoot

[YardSale]

44 minutes ago, sadday4hockey said:

Most times that is a group of delusional parents of players who are NOT AA level but the parents will never accept. An organization will eventually agree to host their tryouts and when all is said and done, they are either placed in A Major where they belong or get into AA and have an awful season.

Some orgs will always have AA teams at all levels that matter and some will be facilitators of the delusion.

AA Orgs

North Pitt

Allegheny

SCIR

Preds

Southpointe

Foxes

 

Most others are a year to year crap shoot

You can probably throw Mt. Lebo in that mix too

[Hockey00]

2 hours ago, Godzilla said:

Can someone explain how PAHL does the rankings at the beginning of the season?  For instance there was a club that was advertising a AA team at a certain level.  The year prior they weren't AA.  Does PAHL take a look at the roster for the current year and then place them accordingly?  I just want to get a better understanding of the process.  

Thanks in advance!

I thought there was a formula for where each kid played previously (AA. a Major, A minor with points for each) and then added together and an average number?

[RJUSHL]

There is a database of every players previous teams that feeds into a formula that provide a teams initial ranking. Organizations can also offer their input for out of norm circumstances. The placements are then fine-tuned with placement games, and then appeal games in some cases. In general I think PAHL does a nice job with placements.

I agree with others that these teams will almost always have a team in every AA division:

Allegheny
SCIR
North Pittsburgh
Foxes
Lebo
South Pittsburgh
*SHAHA
*Predators

*SHAHA and Preds to a lesser extent, because they sometimes try and force AAA teams upon certain age groups, which tends to dilute their PAHL teams. Their AA teams are oftentimes borderline A Major/AA type of teams. 

Edited April 28, 2023 by RJUSHL

[bender05]

18 minutes ago, RJUSHL said:

There is a database of every players previous teams that feeds into a formula that provide a teams initial ranking. Organizations can also offer their input for out of norm circumstances. The placements are then fine-tuned with placement games, and then appeal games in some cases. In general I think PAHL does a nice job with placements.

I agree with others that these teams will almost always have a team in every AA division:

Allegheny
SCIR
North Pittsburgh
Foxes
Lebo
South Pittsburgh
*SHAHA
*Predators

*SHAHA and Preds to a lesser extent, because they sometimes try and force AAA teams upon certain age groups, which tends to dilute their PAHL teams. Their AA teams are oftentimes borderline A Major/AA type of teams. 

anyone know preds and shaha u14, u16, and u18 if they have aaa teams this year or top team as AA? Pretty sure 2008 and 2009 are AAA for both 

Edited April 28, 2023 by bender05

[Icebucket]

1 hour ago, bender05 said:

anyone know preds and shaha u14, u16, and u18 if they have aaa teams this year or top team as AA? Pretty sure 2008 and 2009 are AAA for both 

The preds have always had AAA teams at 16s and 18s, but they aren't really AAA teams. Last year for example, both the preds 16 and 18 AAA were each weaker than 3-4 PAHL AA teams.

The 16 preds didn't play any PAHL teams. The 18 preds lost 8-1 against the top team in PAHL.

[nemesis8679]

I think they rank them pretty good. I think they do a good job with it. Although you often do have that one team that doesn't lose a game, or that one team that doesn't win a game. But I'm not sure that that's avoidable. And I think sometimes a borderline team may be moved up or down to add to, subtract from, or balance a division.

I've heard some say the two placement games could be used by an unscrupulous coach to "tank" to get a lower division, and I see how it could be gamed a little. But I'm not sure that it actually happens, and certainly not enough to worry about if it does. Or maybe your goalie has two bad games. Or maybe your best player is sick. But I'm not sure that happens enough to be concerned about. But the best thing to do is play a handful of games in addition to the placement games. They  allow you to enter any tournament games the team participated in, and you're also free to schedule a few of your own scrimmages and submit those scores. So I think that's a nice thing that they allow you to use a larger pool of games to judge by. And of course they're also looking at where the kids were before. 

Some places in other states don't do mixed year, and your first year in an age group you play A Minor and your second year you play A Major. And that's how Minor/Major is determined. I'm sure that has its good points and it's bad points.

Many areas also have it where your travel team is dictated by your location- if you live in X, Y, or Z district, you tryout and play for a determined team for that district. Now they do allow one or two moves, if something isn't a good fit or whatever. But there's no team carousel every year. 

Not sure how these ways of doing things affects rankings, if that would help/hurt the parity. 

 

But I'd say as it is right now seems pretty reasonable and fair. 

[fafa fohi]

The nonsense of having organizations placing two teams in PAHL AA has to stop.  It is less about PAHL having an influence of where the teams are placed and more about anabolic parents and ambitious coaches placing teams in a division where they don't belong.   Historically when the lower or second team is added with predominatly younger BY players, they get destroyed by teams carrying mostly players of the older age group.  

Take for example, South Pittsburgh with two 16U AA teams last season, Preds 18U AA in 2021-22, and SHAHA U14 AA in 2020-21.  PAHL needs to grow a pair and just say "no" and only allow one AA team per division per organization.  

Edited May 1, 2023 by fafa fohi

[fafa fohi]

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Edited May 1, 2023 by fafa fohi

[nemesis8679]

7 minutes ago, fafa fohi said:

The nonsense of having organizations placing two teams in PAHL AA has to stop.  It is less about PAHL having an influence of where the teams are placed and more about anabolic parents and ambitious coaches placing teams in a division where they don't belong.   Historically when the lower or second team is added with predominatly younger BY players, they get destroyed by teams carrying mostly players of the older age group.  

Take for example, South Pittsburgh with two 16U AA teams last season, Preds 18U AA in 2021-22, and SHAHA U14 AA in 2020-21.  PAHL needs to grow a pair and just say "no" and only allow one AA team per division per organization.  

I think it's fine, but should be a AA Major or AA Minor situation. And not all orgs do it. For instance North Pittsburgh could probably do this every season at the majority of age groups. 

[RJUSHL]

PAHL would solve a lot if issues if they had AA Major and AA Minor divisions at 12U, 14U (already exists), and 16U. Prevents the scenario mentioned here and also prevents peewee minor teams from going independent, which is when that nonsense starts to happen.

PAHL needs to understand that the birth year model is here to stay whether they like it or not. Adapt or become irrelevant. 

Edited May 1, 2023 by RJUSHL