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Mid-Am Select 15 (2008) and 14 (2009)


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3 minutes ago, zam said:

So in a non-checking middle school game you saw a A/AA player perform better than a AAA player?  And from that experience you decided that AAA player wasn't worthy of attending Mid Am camp?

He did say varsity and JV and... I would expect AAA players to be worse at checking from my own experience. They seem to be soft and expect not to be hit because they are used to being in games where the physical game is undervalued. 

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27 minutes ago, aaaahockey said:

He did say varsity and JV and... I would expect AAA players to be worse at checking from my own experience. They seem to be soft and expect not to be hit because they are used to being in games where the physical game is undervalued. 

Yes he also mentioned middle school, so I assume atleast one of his evaluations was based on a middle school game. 

So AAA players are generally soft? And worse at checking than who? A players? 

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2 hours ago, zam said:

So in a non-checking middle school game you saw a A/AA player perform better than a AAA player?  And from that experience you decided that AAA player wasn't worthy of attending Mid Am camp?

No.  I saw more than one '08 A Major and AA level kid outplay some kids on that list at the Varsity and JV level, and I saw '09 AA players outskate and dupe kids that made their list.

I am not saying someone isn't worthy, I am not putting anyone down, and as I mentioned I really don't care.  I am saying that it's more of the same old "this kid is better than someone else" position that says other kids who aren't invited (or don't care if they are invited) are somehow inferior, even if they play as well or better than the kids who are selected.

If we are praising those kids who are selected, what does that say about the system when kids who aren't even considered shut them down during a JV game (as an example)?  Catch my drift?

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For anyone crying foul on the whole process, throw out some specific ways it could be improved. What are your ideas?”

You can start with independent evaluators that have zero interest in their former players advancing.  The fact that PPE coaches dominate this process is a joke.  I’ve seen it multiple times at the U14, U15 and U16 levels.  Get these “evaluators” to swap districts or bring in those that are not tied to any of the organizations.  Everything looks fair when the cuts go from 100+ to 60.  When it gets really fun is seeing the list of kids that advance to natty camp and see the sea of yellow buckets.

I will stick by what I said - it is a sham.

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1 hour ago, hockey07 said:

Really odd. One 09 that goes to Lebo on Shaha had over 120 points-former pens 

That kid was fun to watch when I went out to Johnstown with my brother. He's got too much personality to be a hockey player 😂

 

In all seriousness talking to his dad I think they have multi-kids in multi-sports. Might not be something he would be interested in anyway. 

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4 hours ago, hockey07 said:

Really odd. One 09 that goes to Lebo on Shaha had over 120 points-former pens 

Great player. He wasn't at MidAm tryouts. I only noticed one 08 or 09 SHAHA AAA kid at tryouts. The one I know was selected to advance.

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On 5/5/2023 at 6:55 AM, RJUSHL said:

There are usually 7+ evaluators over the course of the weekend. And the evaluators don't know the kids. It's a good process.

Lmao, unless something has changed. Yes, it been years since I followed the select camps. 

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On 5/5/2023 at 11:34 AM, RJUSHL said:

Ok I think I'm right on the 7+ evaluators. I only know this because I've counted. Maybe it's not true across the board but it has been for me after multiple trips.

I'm sure "gold buckets" get the nod at a higher rate than most organizations, but that's because they are generally the best players. Just like I'm sure the Barons move through the process at a higher rate than Team Ohio kids. They just have better players.

For anyone crying foul on the whole process, throw out some specific ways it could be improved. What are your ideas?

Looking at the 08 and 09 list, I do see some AA kids from Pittsburgh that were selected over Esmark AAA and Preds AAA kids. There aren't many, but they are there. Isn't that the type of thing we want to see? Having evaluators actually look at performance and potential vs the number of letters? And looking at the PPE kids on the 08 and 09 list, they absolutely deserve it.

I'm sure the process isn't absolutely perfect, but I still think it's better than any Tier I or Tier II local tryout process. I really don't get all the hate, unless it's become personal for some reason.

UPDATE: My only suggestion is to get a few evaluators from Michigan. It's close by, and there's less of a chance those evaluators will be familiar with a kid or have coached a kid in the past.

 

I’ll tell you a story from some moons ago - there was a culver defenseman who was the star at the 15U camp (kids that just finished their 14U season). Every PPE kid was moved on, along with 90% of the PPE black kids (if memory is correct only two didn’t make it) this was the Morehouse birth year. This kid from culver was clearly the best player on the ice for this birth year. He ended up in the ushl when he turned 17, while MOST of these PPE players eventually got cut by PPE the following season or just finished out at ppe, didn’t make it anywhere.  There was a few that left PPE on their own and have had some great success. 
 

culver raised hell about this situation. 3 PPE heads were the ONLY evaluators for this birth year camp at Sylvania. If you’ve been around a little im sure you know who these 3 people were (one was a dad) 
 

Back then, At this age there was no national team camp tryout to make (is there now ?)  Kids were just moved onto a second “celebration camp” with the best players making it to “all star weekend” then it was over. 
 

I can’t be sure of the exact 100% detailed outcome (I truely can’t remember) but for the most part I THINK every PPE kid was cut within the first 2 days (most on day 1) I THINK none made it to allstar weekend (there has to be a record of this somewhere ?) word at the the time - usa hockey was pissed off about the culver kid & pissed off at mid am. They sent a message by cutting all these ppe kids on day 1. 
 

I really do wish I could remember all the details. Regadless, sounds like nothing has changed over the years. 

Edited by Danner27
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13 hours ago, Danner27 said:

Regadless, sounds like nothing has changed over the years. 

Why do you say that nothing has changed over the years?

Your story happened a longggggg time ago. Not sure it's still relevant. You mention 3 PPE coaches as the only evaluators. That part has clearly changed. There were 7+ evaluators for 08s and 09s a few weekends ago. And so far no one has pointed out a single PPE coach that was there. There could've been one or two, I'm not sure. I know some of the PPE coaches in that bantam/midget age group, and none of them were there. I'm going to ask them how many PPE coaches (if any) were at tryouts a few weekends ago.

I think most of the people in this thread calling it a "sham" have been personally hurt by the process. It's not perfect, but from my experience over the past few years it's certainly a better process than many of the local Tier I and Tier II tryouts.

The negativity is just amazing. Everyone is a victim. Everyone has been screwed over by the system. I'm sure a lot of that has been passed down to the kids. What an exhausting outlook.

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1 hour ago, RJUSHL said:

Why do you say that nothing has changed over the years?

Your story happened a longggggg time ago. Not sure it's still relevant. You mention 3 PPE coaches as the only evaluators. That part has clearly changed. There were 7+ evaluators for 08s and 09s a few weekends ago. And so far no one has pointed out a single PPE coach that was there. There could've been one or two, I'm not sure. I know some of the PPE coaches in that bantam/midget age group, and none of them were there. I'm going to ask them how many PPE coaches (if any) were at tryouts a few weekends ago.

I think most of the people in this thread calling it a "sham" have been personally hurt by the process. It's not perfect, but from my experience over the past few years it's certainly a better process than many of the local Tier I and Tier II tryouts.

The negativity is just amazing. Everyone is a victim. Everyone has been screwed over by the system. I'm sure a lot of that has been passed down to the kids. What an exhausting outlook.

I haven’t and won’t play the victim card on this topic. I can remain pretty objective when it comes to any of my kids level of play and what they bring to these events  - both of them had some success by advancing - one survived the first cut and the other made it to the final weekend by playing in the “all-star” game. Neither made it to natty camp, which was the right call.

I have no axe to grind here, but I saw it for myself on multiple occasions of PPE kids advancing both to the finals and to natty camp whereas they were clearly not the best players there.  Seeing top level kids from Culver, Esmark, Tri State and others who turned heads at these events only to be denied in favor of PPE kids that were clearly outplayed.  And in some cases it wasn’t even close.

Call it what you want, I’ll do the same. 

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3 hours ago, RJUSHL said:

Why do you say that nothing has changed over the years?

Your story happened a longggggg time ago. Not sure it's still relevant. You mention 3 PPE coaches as the only evaluators. That part has clearly changed. There were 7+ evaluators for 08s and 09s a few weekends ago. And so far no one has pointed out a single PPE coach that was there. There could've been one or two, I'm not sure. I know some of the PPE coaches in that bantam/midget age group, and none of them were there. I'm going to ask them how many PPE coaches (if any) were at tryouts a few weekends ago.

I think most of the people in this thread calling it a "sham" have been personally hurt by the process. It's not perfect, but from my experience over the past few years it's certainly a better process than many of the local Tier I and Tier II tryouts.

The negativity is just amazing. Everyone is a victim. Everyone has been screwed over by the system. I'm sure a lot of that has been passed down to the kids. What an exhausting outlook.

There were multiple PPE coaches there last weekend and even the coach of the 08/15u team. That's not weird at all🤔 but it may have been okay since he was relieved of his job the day the camp started.

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4 hours ago, Pucks11 said:

There were multiple PPE coaches there last weekend and even the coach of the 08/15u team. That's not weird at all🤔 but it may have been okay since he was relieved of his job the day the camp started.

Care to elaborate?

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9 hours ago, RJUSHL said:

Why do you say that nothing has changed over the years?

Your story happened a longggggg time ago. Not sure it's still relevant. You mention 3 PPE coaches as the only evaluators. That part has clearly changed. There were 7+ evaluators for 08s and 09s a few weekends ago. And so far no one has pointed out a single PPE coach that was there. There could've been one or two, I'm not sure. I know some of the PPE coaches in that bantam/midget age group, and none of them were there. I'm going to ask them how many PPE coaches (if any) were at tryouts a few weekends ago.

I think most of the people in this thread calling it a "sham" have been personally hurt by the process. It's not perfect, but from my experience over the past few years it's certainly a better process than many of the local Tier I and Tier II tryouts.

The negativity is just amazing. Everyone is a victim. Everyone has been screwed over by the system. I'm sure a lot of that has been passed down to the kids. What an exhausting outlook.

Lol I’m not playing the victim, both of my kids made it through Sylvannia when they were that age. 
 

I am simply giving an example on the history of this camp but it’s never really been secret who runs mid am. 

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3 hours ago, aaaahockey said:

Why do that after tryouts?

Some yuppie parents on the 09 were upset that they had a daddy coach even though he has coached that team for 4+ years without a problem.  Upset a few 08 parents since they went there for the original coach.

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Yeah, I’d be upset too if at 15u a coach recruited my kid to play for him and then after committing find out he won’t be the coach (unless for a good reason). 15u is a big year and  the coach is a huge part of selecting the right team for your player. I’d be even more upset to find out it was to accommodate a younger BY. 

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I thought I'd add my two cents regarding the mid-am camp tryout process with hopes of helping future families navigate the situation.  Full disclaimer, my son is an '08 and this was his second year at the tryout...He did not advance to the mid-am camp either year.  I can only comment knowledgably on the 2008 group.

My understanding (which could be incorrect) is that this year the number of players a coach could nominate was loosely determined by the team's ranking at the end of the year.  Obviously, with two strong national-finalist squads in the Pens and Vengeance, both teams deservedly had many players attend.  I say loosely determined, however, because there were a couple of lower-ranked Western PA organizations that seemed to have a disproportionate number of players in attendance.  I'm not fully certain whether or not something changed from last year, but in 2022 we noticed nearly entire teams present for some low-ranked WPA squads.  Fortunately, that wasn't the case this year.  My son's team had eight players at the most recent tryout.

I'd be remiss if I failed to mention that it was clear that there were a number of high quality players that were not among the roughly 175 players that attended the tryout.  Also worth mentioning is that as part of the registration process parents are asked how many points the player scored in the most recent season, as well as where, and what level he/she played in the most recent season and seasons prior.

As a coach and evaluator myself (not hockey), I fully understand that tryout/Evaluation process is difficult and flawed by nature.  That said, I was disappointed to see only ONE evaluator present during each of my son's four games.  The evaluation areas were clearly marked and it was easy to determine that just one evaluator was trying to take notes on roughly 35 players across a 45-minute running-clock game.  Evaluating is difficult...it's imperfect...it's stressful...But having the expectation that ONE person can objectively and effectively evaluate 30+ players, let alone in such a short time, is absurd.  I can't speak to whether or not the single-evaluator model was in place for all games, but can only speak to my son's games.  While I watched many games that weren't my son's, I didn't pay attention to the evaluator situation for those games.  Unfortunately, I don't recall the evaluation situation in 2022.

With all of that in mind, I firmly believe that a player's full body of work should be a factor (clearly not the only one) in situations like this with his/her most recent season's performance given the most weight.  If there were five evaluators present for each game, I'd suggest the weight should be low;  but with just one evaluator present the weight has to be higher.  Part of the problem is that the talent divide among all players trying out is ENORMOUS!  Contrary to popular belief, the hockey is not very good at the tryout.

This is where it seems clear that certain organizations and individuals (namely coaches) have superior, and sometimes undue, influence.  The list of players advancing in 2022 supported that, and by looking at the '08 list of advancing players this year, it seems clear as well.  Don't get me wrong, the vast majority of players on the '08 list are fully deserving, but there are more than a few head scratchers on there--Players that looked completely lost.  Certain organizations/teams had an improbable number of players that advanced to the camp.  It's no coincidence that those organizations/teams had a strong presence and influence at the tryout.

tl;dr  Tryouts are imperfect in nature and evaluators have a very difficult job.  Mid-am makes the job more difficult by not having enough evaluators present for each game.  Not all of the region's best players attend the mid-am camp tryout.  Certain organizations/teams/coaches have more influence in the mid-am district than others.  If making the mid-am camp is your lone goal find an organization/team/coach with mid-am influence.

One goalie showed up for the first night, played 12 minutes, faced three shots, and then left the tryout.  He advanced to the mid-am camp.  Is he deserving based on his body of work?  Absolutely!!  Is his selection "fair" based on the tryout?  You be the judge.

Anecdotal evidence as discussed by many parents suggests that if you're a forward and you get your name in the goal column a couple of times...you're going to advance.  All goals are reported to the evaluator in real time.

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I know a couple of people who have evaluated at MidAms the last couple of years (not this year, I don't know who was there) and they did not have any connection to the kids they were evaluating. So there has been an effort to bring in 'neutral' coaches.

At the older ages, the few who move on to the USA Hockey camps are likely known prior to the tryouts, and yes, they typically play on the top AAA teams. In general, they are the best at the camp. My kid did two of the these MidAm camps, and the handful who were chosen to move to those camps were probably the right ones. The selections for the 'all-star' game at the end of the camps were pretty hit and miss though. Definitely some kids that seemed to stand out to me at the camp and weren't picked and others that didn't seem to do anything but were picked. Not sure if this is flawed evaluations or certain political favors.

To the point above, I doubt there was one evaluator watching. The evaluators used to hang in the upstairs restaurant at the Tam where they basically got free food - they'd watch out the window or on the camera feed if it was on the other rink. Now, I think many of them were more focussed on the food than the ice, but I sincerely doubt there was only one evaluator 'on duty' for a given session.

As for invitations, this is where it gets sketchy. MidAm solicits nominations from AAA and AA coaches in the midam district. There's no rules on how many players from their team they can nominate. Some coaches only nominate a handful of their better players. I knew a low-end AA coach a few years back who just nominated his whole team. This does a disservice to everyone at the camp because those players can fill slots and once those slots are filled on a first-come-first-served basis others can get shut out. So, very often, a lower AAA player might not get invited even though a lower AA player may, and this is just based on how selective their coach is with the nominations. Not a great system, but that's how it was when I went through it. I never knew of a case where MidAm screened the nominations they received, but I guess it might have changed.

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1 hour ago, PuckerUp said:

My understanding (which could be incorrect) is that this year the number of players a coach could nominate was loosely determined by the team's ranking at the end of the year.  Obviously, with two strong national-finalist squads in the Pens and Vengeance, both teams deservedly had many players attend.  I say loosely determined, however, because there were a couple of lower-ranked Western PA organizations that seemed to have a disproportionate number of players in attendance.  I'm not fully certain whether or not something changed from last year, but in 2022 we noticed nearly entire teams present for some low-ranked WPA squads.  Fortunately, that wasn't the case this year.  My son's team had eight players at the most recent tryout.

 

I missed the first part of this paragraph. If that was true, it would be a step in the right direction, because as I mentioned above - there was nothing stopping any coach from just nominating their team before. They must have finally wised up to this, there needed to be some restrictions on nominations.

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@Loach, maybe I was mistaken and there was more than one evaluator watching, but I genuinely don't believe that was the case.  Yes, it's possible that evaluators were watching on LiveBarn, but why? At the rink, there was an area at the far end of the bar-side bleachers that was clearly marked (cordoned off) for Mid-Am personnel only.  During my son's four games there wasn't a single evaluator in that area.  The only other location where evaluators could be isolated from the general population was the viewing area above the benches.  That's where I saw one evaluator each time and one individual that was in charge of the clock.  There was one coach on each bench, but they never made any notes...maybe mental notes, perhaps, that were passed along later.

Edit...I meant to note that the bar area was packed full of parents all weekend, which meant evaluators were definitely not watching from there.

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20 minutes ago, PuckerUp said:

@Loach, maybe I was mistaken and there was more than one evaluator watching, but I genuinely don't believe that was the case.  Yes, it's possible that evaluators were watching on LiveBarn, but why? At the rink, there was an area at the far end of the bar-side bleachers that was clearly marked (cordoned off) for Mid-Am personnel only.  During my son's four games there wasn't a single evaluator in that area.  The only other location where evaluators could be isolated from the general population was the viewing area above the benches.  That's where I saw one evaluator each time and one individual that was in charge of the clock.  There was one coach on each bench, but they never made any notes...maybe mental notes, perhaps, that were passed along later.

Edit...I meant to note that the bar area was packed full of parents all weekend, which meant evaluators were definitely not watching from there.

The times I went, the bar was closed off to the public and that's where the evaluators hung out. Guess there were some changes this year. It would make no sense to just have one evaluator but who knows with MidAm. As my kids have aged out, I'll defer to you and others with more recent info.

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4 hours ago, Loach said:

At the older ages, the few who move on to the USA Hockey camps are likely known prior to the tryouts, and yes, they typically play on the top AAA teams. In general, they are the best at the camp. 

I will 100% agree with that based on what I witnessed when my son did these mid-am tryouts.  Also, the kids that for sure knew they were making it didn't even try hard, and still made it.  If they have pre-selected people it becomes a big waste of time and money for parents who's kids won't even be looked at.

Felt that it was an honor to be picked by the org to go to the midam tryouts but thought it was a waste of time.

Reminded me of our high school tryouts which were also a total joke of pre-selected nonsense.  Literally 12-14 kids dicked around at those and still made the varsity team. 

 

Edited by Wes
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