18U AAA - What is going on?

[fafa fohi]

It seems this forum has been quiet of late so leave it to me to throw fresh chum in the water - here goes……….

What is going on at the 18U AAA level for WPA teams?  I know it is early but it is extremely hard for a team ranked outside of the top 50 to recover after a slow start playing poor teams.   PPE are the highest ranked team at 29th, followed by the Stars ( formerly Esmark ) at #50.  Vengeance are currently ranked 74th and should I even mention that the Icemen are the lowest AAA team at U18 in the country with the exception of three teams ranked lower than them - yep, ranked 118th out of 121 teams. 

Reaction!

[nemesis8679]

What's going on is that other than the Pens, they all have an extra A that they threw on the name of the team. If they dropped that extra A, they could compete with other teams that only have 2 A's instead of 3. Maybe if you took the most talented kids with the most hockey sense off of those teams you could form one more AAA team in the area that could compete with Pens. But as it sits, with the exception of Pens, you have multiple teams of AA and A players playing with a phantom extra A, with a few AAA caliber players sprinkled in. Like it or not, like Pens or not, it is what it is. Hockey is very watered down here because of these extra letters. 

On top of having too high of a ratio of teams to the population of the area calling themselves AAA (or AA, for that matter) at all age groups, you don't have enough coaches to coach at that level in this area. Some of the coaches really aren't of the caliber to be at that level. 

Also, go to some PIHL games. This is a good way to see "AAA" players playing among other "AAA" players. As well as against "AA" and "A" players. In most cases, you'd be hard pressed to guess a player's travel level. Yeah there's some obviously good players and some that can't hardly skate. But the difference isn't THAT big generally speaking, and in a lot of cases you wouldn't see much difference. But a real AAA player that had a chance to go anywhere meaningful would be blowing the doors off of everybody else in a league like PIHL. And would be doing it in 9th or 10th grade in the AAA division. 

And 18u AAA? Where is that realistically going to lead? I'll tell you. Pay-to-play 'juniors' or D3 or club. Most anybody that has a sliver of hope to play D1, Major Junior, USHL, NAHL, or WHL is already doing that at 16u. Not to say it can't happen. But nobody is seriously scouting any of these local teams besides Pens. If you're one of the best 3 players at Pens, maybe it could lead somewhere or even to get a tryout somewhere. You could hands-down the best player for the Preds or the Icemen... and no one is even going to notice. 

But some people will get on here to say I'm full of shit, I'm a curmudgeon who is no fun, I don't know what I'm talking about, etc. I'll just say that the numbers don't lie. 

BUT. If the kid is having a good time, the cost isn't a concern with the parents, the kid doesn't mind missing out on doing kid things over the weekends, and everybody has a realistic expectation of what's going on, then that's fine. Otherwise, just play wherever and have a good time. You're only young enough to do this stuff for a short period of your life. It may as well be fun, however you decide to do it.

[Corsi]

I wrote this back in June, but I feel like it applies again to the above rant:  

My son as since aged out, but he started skating at 4 and the question my wife and I asked him all the time was "Are you having fun", "Was that fun", "Are you still having fun"...  we did it constantly, to the point that it probably annoyed him but it was because we always wanted to be sure that he was doing what he wanted to do and not what we wanted him to be doing.  Let your player have fun, progress at their own pace, and then make your choices about what to do based on what they want to do along with what your personal time and financial limitations allow.  Most people realize that the odds are against any player/anywhere in the world going pro so ignore the criticisms you are going to hear from other people and parents about things like where you are choosing to play, where you are choosing to spend your money, and how much money you are spending.  People (especially on this board) like to be critical of the choices people make even though it has zero impact on them directly.  Do what is best for your player and your family, ask questions when you have them, ignore the negative, and make sure they are having fun.  

[aaaahockey]

5 minutes ago, Corsi said:

I wrote this back in June, but I feel like it applies again to the above rant:  

My son as since aged out, but he started skating at 4 and the question my wife and I asked him all the time was "Are you having fun", "Was that fun", "Are you still having fun"...  we did it constantly, to the point that it probably annoyed him but it was because we always wanted to be sure that he was doing what he wanted to do and not what we wanted him to be doing.  Let your player have fun, progress at their own pace, and then make your choices about what to do based on what they want to do along with what your personal time and financial limitations allow.  Most people realize that the odds are against any player/anywhere in the world going pro so ignore the criticisms you are going to hear from other people and parents about things like where you are choosing to play, where you are choosing to spend your money, and how much money you are spending.  People (especially on this board) like to be critical of the choices people make even though it has zero impact on them directly.  Do what is best for your player and your family, ask questions when you have them, ignore the negative, and make sure they are having fun.  

90% of what you are saying is true.  I will take exception to the zero impact part.  Both fake AAA teams and black bears THF/AHF crap really waters down the local competition and hurts kids not affiliated with those organizations. 

[Corsi]

I get what you are saying, but my entire point is:  "Do what is best for your player and your family, ask questions when you have them, ignore the negative, and make sure they are having fun."...  agree or disagree, but it is not up to a family to make a decision about where to play based on the impact it is going to have on the "local competition" or the "kids not affiliated with those organizations".  The issue there is with the structure of hockey as a whole, but even with that being the case players can only participate within the structure they are presented with.  We focus on hockey, but this is the same route all youth sports are taking and have been taking for the better part of probably close to 30 years.  

[nemesis8679]

7 hours ago, Corsi said:

I get what you are saying, but my entire point is:  "Do what is best for your player and your family, ask questions when you have them, ignore the negative, and make sure they are having fun."...  agree or disagree, but it is not up to a family to make a decision about where to play based on the impact it is going to have on the "local competition" or the "kids not affiliated with those organizations".  The issue there is with the structure of hockey as a whole, but even with that being the case players can only participate within the structure they are presented with.  We focus on hockey, but this is the same route all youth sports are taking and have been taking for the better part of probably close to 30 years.  

Agree, but just call the teams the level they are. 

[Rewster]

Just looking at their records and comparing our local AAA teams amongst the usual nationally recognized teams…so far, it doesn’t seem like Pittsburgh’s AAA representative teams are out of place.

It’s obviously still early in the season, but I don’t see an immediate downturn when compare the numbers and common opponents across the region at this point of the season.

[Saucey]

14 hours ago, aaaahockey said:

90% of what you are saying is true.  I will take exception to the zero impact part.  Both fake AAA teams and black bears THF/AHF crap really waters down the local competition and hurts kids not affiliated with those organizations. 

This 1000 times over. A completely parent or player driven market is not great for the growth of hockey. And it drives up costs.

[rkowallis]

10 hours ago, Saucey said:

This 1000 times over. A completely parent or player driven market is not great for the growth of hockey. And it drives up costs.

Also agree but I have to add that it affects players playing above their CURRENT level. I have never really understood this. Players (parents) should want to push themselves to be better. Playing against better players/teams does accomplish this but not to the point where you’re just chasing the game. Coaches teach basic skill and structure. Development occurs in the decision making. If you never have the puck, this growth is stunted. Sometimes this is a slow build but it has to happen. Hockey development has a tendency to lack patience.

[nemesis8679]

On 10/18/2024 at 9:58 PM, Rewster said:

Just looking at their records and comparing our local AAA teams amongst the usual nationally recognized teams…so far, it doesn’t seem like Pittsburgh’s AAA representative teams are out of place.

It’s obviously still early in the season, but I don’t see an immediate downturn when compare the numbers and common opponents across the region at this point of the season.

You didn't notice strength of schedule is much easier, and they're still lower than Pens? It's not an apples to apples comparison between all those schedules.

[Rinkshrink01]

First post here. I have been involved for a while at all levels and my son is done and gone and playing in the ACHA. The whole thing is ridiculous and people who know better should fix it. Teams with the extra A that have zero chance to make mid ams along with the top AA teams should form a league between WPA and Ohio. So that travel is minimized and we are elevating our talent by playing more competitive and meaningful games on a regular basis. We all know that there are guys making a living selling the dream so this crap continues along with the extra As. 
 

The same garbage happens every year. Teams seasons are basically over in November and there are no meaningful games after Jan1. And the canceling to protect rankings hurts everyone and needs to stop.  Until this district gets its head out of it backside it’s going to continue and keep hurting the whole district. 
 

PAHL lets garbage orgs field AA teams that have no chance to compete. So it pulls all the other teams down with it and has given rise to these independent teams and is allowing BBSG In the door.  
 

There are talented players that deserve better hockey.  Under the current structure it destroys any chance for advancement after the top talent leaves after 16u. When we send the 105th ranked AAA team to get blown out by Any team in the elite league it makes us all look bad and stops any advancement in its tracks. 
 

There are solutions and it may be at the expense of a couple peoples current bz model.  It will take a few years to take hold but it will make all of our teams better. 

[fafa fohi]

16 hours ago, Rinkshrink01 said:

First post here. I have been involved for a while at all levels and my son is done and gone and playing in the ACHA. The whole thing is ridiculous and people who know better should fix it. Teams with the extra A that have zero chance to make mid ams along with the top AA teams should form a league between WPA and Ohio. So that travel is minimized and we are elevating our talent by playing more competitive and meaningful games on a regular basis. We all know that there are guys making a living selling the dream so this crap continues along with the extra As. 
 

The same garbage happens every year. Teams seasons are basically over in November and there are no meaningful games after Jan1. And the canceling to protect rankings hurts everyone and needs to stop.  Until this district gets its head out of it backside it’s going to continue and keep hurting the whole district. 
 

PAHL lets garbage orgs field AA teams that have no chance to compete. So it pulls all the other teams down with it and has given rise to these independent teams and is allowing BBSG In the door.  
 

There are talented players that deserve better hockey.  Under the current structure it destroys any chance for advancement after the top talent leaves after 16u. When we send the 105th ranked AAA team to get blown out by Any team in the elite league it makes us all look bad and stops any advancement in its tracks. 
 

There are solutions and it may be at the expense of a couple peoples current bz model.  It will take a few years to take hold but it will make all of our teams better. 

There are those out there ( parents ) that have had players at the "AAA" level for years that would never subject themselves to the lowly dregs of AA level hockey.  They would rather have their all-star on a 5-35 team ranked in the bottom ten of Tier 1 than a top ten nationally ranked AA team with a realistic shot at Nationals.

Edited October 21, 2024 by fafa fohi

[Rinkshrink01]

1 hour ago, fafa fohi said:

There are those out there ( parents ) that have had players at the "AAA" level for years that would never subject themselves to the lowly dregs of AA level hockey.  They would rather have their all-star on a 5-35 team ranked in the bottom ten of Tier 1 than a top ten nationally ranked AA team with a realistic shot at Nationals.

I agree and that's the problem.  Parents don't know better and never will.  They would rather continue to waste time and money chasing something that has already been taken off the table because the structure is broken.  People that know better need to change it.  However, the BZ model is "your kid can still make it" when really their celling is ACHA or possibly on a D3 roster that has 35 kids paying 50K to go to school.  So people that know better should step in.  Scouts are not at Tier 2 Nationals and they are not watching any AAA team below 50.  People are entitled to spend their money any way they want.  However, the reality is by doing what they are doing they are hurting not only their kids chances but hockey in general.  A player that has played more meaningful games over their career whether it is Tier 1 or 2 is better equipped to be successful at Juniors and possibly work their way through because they played through adversity.  PAHL is joke at the older ages and THF / AHF isn't much better.  If you look at the All 18 Rankings there is a good league from teams 6-22 (Icemen ranked below 11 AA Teams) with minimal travel.  The Ohio teams could be worked in with their Pre Post Schedules.  As long as the players stay spread out between that many teams none of these extra A's will find their way up in the rankings and the cycle will continue. 

[Duck Bill]

I want to add a counterpoint, although it is likely less applicable by the time you hit 18U.  A lot of focus is being put on parents for chasing the extra "A," but what do you tell the kid that doesn't feel AA is challenging enough for them?  I feel like if we chopped things down at the AAA level to the point where there is only one game in town, we know which game that will be and we all have our opinions on that organization. I feel like there has to be viable alternatives at that level where talent can centralize.

I do agree with the notion that Pittsburgh isn't big enough to support 3+ AAA teams per se, but I don't think eliminating AAA teams is going to make AA that much better for the same reason.  Being on a bottom AAA team and struggling is bad for a player's development, but so is being a superstar at a lower league where they aren't challenged. Has to be something in the middle there.  There are plenty of bubble players out there, but not every one of them pops.  Have to have a place where they can test the waters and find their place through hard work.

Pittsburgh is a "smaller" big city, so it's in a weird spot.  I'm grateful for the amount of resources we have here, but at the same time it's not quite enough.

[Corsi]

2 hours ago, Duck Bill said:

I don't think eliminating AAA teams is going to make AA that much better for the same reason.  Being on a bottom AAA team and struggling is bad for a player's development, but so is being a superstar at a lower league where they aren't challenged. Has to be something in the middle there.  There are plenty of bubble players out there, but not every one of them pops.  Have to have a place where they can test the waters and find their place through hard work.

I believe this is 100% correct.  There also needs to be some accounting for the level of commitment required at the AAA level vs. AA/A hockey.  There are players on each of the AAA teams that are probably borderline being able to make a PPE team.  The suggestion that those players are supposed to play AA because there is only one "real AAA" team in town, is a ridiculous theory/idea.  Those are the players who would then be put in a position to have to leave Pittsburgh to play at an appropriate level if their family has the ability to make that happen and the player has the commitment level to make that kind of situation work.  

[Duck Bill]

14 minutes ago, Corsi said:

Those are the players who would then be put in a position to have to leave Pittsburgh to play at an appropriate level if their family has the ability to make that happen and the player has the commitment level to make that kind of situation work.  

I wish I could find the article from back when PPE started, but that was the EXACT reasoning that was quoted for starting the PPE: so that regional talent wouldn't have to leave the area to find a top level team to play for.  Funny how I feel like that has come full circle in my head, where I feel like we need organizations so that it doesn't feel like PPE or bust/leave the region, which gets more prevalent when they start importing players from out of the area.

Edited October 22, 2024 by Duck Bill

[stickboy]

Are there really area midget players on the local “AAA” teams that aren’t PPE or Esmark that would completely dominate AA?  I find that hard to believe.

[Corsi]

58 minutes ago, Duck Bill said:

I wish I could find the article from back when PPE started, but that was the EXACT reasoning that was quoted for starting the PPE: so that regional talent wouldn't have to leave the area to find a top level team to play for.  Funny how I feel like that has come full circle in my head, where I feel like we need organizations so that it doesn't feel like PPE or bust/leave the region, which gets more prevalent when they start importing players from out of the area.

Your point is exactly why I pushed back on the earlier comment about kids playing on "AAA" teams or "THF/AHF" and the implied negative impact it is having on local hockey.  While I will admit costs associated with "AAA" or "THF/AHF" have made the sport more expensive, please consider that if the Pittsburgh area would distill hockey down to only one or two "AAA" teams the impact on local hockey would be exponentially worse due to many of the players who did not make one of the two "AAA" teams being faced with the choice of leaving the area to compete at that level.  If they leave, they also lose the option of playing for their PIHL team.  

[Saucey]

1 hour ago, Corsi said:

Your point is exactly why I pushed back on the earlier comment about kids playing on "AAA" teams or "THF/AHF" and the implied negative impact it is having on local hockey.  While I will admit costs associated with "AAA" or "THF/AHF" have made the sport more expensive, please consider that if the Pittsburgh area would distill hockey down to only one or two "AAA" teams the impact on local hockey would be exponentially worse due to many of the players who did not make one of the two "AAA" teams being faced with the choice of leaving the area to compete at that level.  If they leave, they also lose the option of playing for their PIHL team.  

I doubt there are that many chasing the dream so much so that they will leave. Let them go.

2007 is also a low BY, don't forget.

[Corsi]

From the PIHL perspective though, if this region went down to 2 "AAA" teams, it wouldn't just have an impact on the 2007 BY but down to 2010 and up to 2006.  Even if a handful of kids at each of those BYs left it would have an impact on the product on the ice because in theory the players leaving because of a lack of "AAA" opportunities would be the higher end players.

[Rinkshrink01]

Nobody ever said that if you don’t make one of the AAA teams you should be a AA player.  You can still choose to classify your teams tier 1 if you so choose. However, the likely hood of making mid ams at 16u and above is minimal. So why travel all over the country for “better competition” when it’s here. If you still want to chase tier1 mid ams go ahead but don’t  cancel games because it is going to hurt your ranking that doesn’t matter anyway. Tri State and Ohio Prospects won’t play AA teams cause it will hurt their bz model.  Then there used to be 3 lower end AAA teams in the South Hills within a 5 mile radius.now we are down to 2. The talent pool is split too thin to compete at the top of tier 1 and we all know if there was 1 AAA team in the south hills it would compete. The problems have been well documented on this board over the years. 
 

if there was a league that consisted of the Tier 1 teams and top AA teams that mattered in the PA / Ohio area our teams would play more meaningful games closer to home which would benefit everyone.  There are always going to be a few kids that leave you won’t be able to stop that ever. The focus should be on improving the completion and level of play locally.  Instead of these teams traveling 10-14 weekends maybe they could get it to 6-8 which would also help PIHL competition as well. 

[nemesis8679]

Honestly if teams cut down on the traveling so much, it would be better because more kids would play. Plenty of kids of high school age don't want to be running around every weekend when they want to be with friends and just would rather be home than running around. 

Also, if you are that committed (really, honestly committed) and want something beyond AAA hockey and you can't make the Pens, you may as well leave. Because if you're playing for Icemen or Vengeance or whatever, nobody of any importance as far as reaching the next level is looking at your games beyond local schools looking to fill their ACHA and club teams. And if you go that route you'll be playing against a bunch of lowly AA and A players anyway. 

 

Edited October 23, 2024 by nemesis8679

[Rewster]

13 hours ago, Corsi said:

Your point is exactly why I pushed back on the earlier comment about kids playing on "AAA" teams or "THF/AHF" and the implied negative impact it is having on local hockey.  While I will admit costs associated with "AAA" or "THF/AHF" have made the sport more expensive, please consider that if the Pittsburgh area would distill hockey down to only one or two "AAA" teams the impact on local hockey would be exponentially worse due to many of the players who did not make one of the two "AAA" teams being faced with the choice of leaving the area to compete at that level.  If they leave, they also lose the option of playing for their PIHL team.  

There’s a great point that you make here and I’d like to further…which is found in every competitive athlete. That is, the opportunity to play at the most competitive level possible. This point has been glossed over; or marginalized to almost the point of insignificance. There’s an obvious Mendoza line of legitimate AAA squads in WPA. I’m not arguing that. If there’s any doubt about who’s not “varsity material” at the 18U point in their hockey careers …well, we all get hit with the proverbial “wake-up call” to continue with our life’s work at some point in our competitive athletic lives. Some receive the news earlier than others.

 

My whole contention is: Why nip the hockey player’s personal growth, achievements and core competitiveness in the bud at such a young age? Hockey is an absurdly expensive sport to begin with. If this isn’t acutely made aware from the start; then there is outside criminal deception involved. This ain’t soccer or basketball…hockey is expensive.
All I’m saying is that there is a high percentage of people that strive to find that definitive feeling of what it’s like to reach their highest level of competitive success. It’s a fleeting moment in a young person’s life that can’t be replicated. Why censor that in an absolute fashion?  Life is full of experiences. It’s the one’s that are achieved through hard work that always stand out the most. The one absolute that I have always contended with is…when that pure athletic competition is over; you can’t ever replicate it. Not in the same capacity as we had at this age. When it’s gone…it’s gone.

[Duck Bill]

5 hours ago, Rewster said:

All I’m saying is that there is a high percentage of people that strive to find that definitive feeling of what it’s like to reach their highest level of competitive success. It’s a fleeting moment in a young person’s life that can’t be replicated. Why censor that in an absolute fashion?  Life is full of experiences. It’s the one’s that are achieved through hard work that always stand out the most. The one absolute that I have always contended with is…when that pure athletic competition is over; you can’t ever replicate it. Not in the same capacity as we had at this age. When it’s gone…it’s gone.

This gets to the core of what I was saying.  WAY too much focus is put on parents chasing the extra A, parents being delusional, what teams aren't legitimate AAA teams, the chances of playing D1 college hockey are so tiny, etc.  I rarely see much talk, through my time lurking here, of the actual kids and what they want.  Sure, as a parent, you have to not have blinders on and realistically guide your child's expectations.  However, if your kid comes up to you and says they want more challenge, they want to play against better competition, they want to personally get better, then why pass up the opportunity to grow their character if you can afford it?  That's what it's about at the end of the day.  I want my kid to work as hard as he can and experience the success and failure that comes with that to make him a better human. If his team loses 2/3 of their games, but he grew as a person and overcame adversity when being given the opportunity to do so, what more can we ask for as parents?

[Corsi]

23 hours ago, Duck Bill said:

However, if your kid comes up to you and says they want more challenge, they want to play against better competition, they want to personally get better, then why pass up the opportunity to grow their character if you can afford it?  That's what it's about at the end of the day.  I want my kid to work as hard as he can and experience the success and failure that comes with that to make him a better human. If his team loses 2/3 of their games, but he grew as a person and overcame adversity when being given the opportunity to do so, what more can we ask for as parents?

Thank you!!!