16UAA Allegheny and NP game

[celly68]

What in the he— happened with the match penalties, misconducts, etc this weekend 

[hockey55]

Look like a few Match penalties abuse of official. That Allegheny coach is a douche. Starts at the top 

[James Gatz]

The scoresheet is at 16U AA1 Scores

 

 

[pghamhockey]

I was at this game watching for the Allegheny side. To preface, I appreciate anyone who is willing to give their time to officiate games for what is a moderate return in pay as we do not have enough referees. That being said other than the altercation between two players at the beginning of the 1st period there was no out of the ordinary animosity between the teams and no incidents that endangered players warranting major penalties the entire rest of the game for either team. Referees are human and entitled to make mistakes like all of us, but in this case I believe that one of them let their emotions dictate how the game was going to be called leading to frustrations and unwarranted suspensions. 

Edited January 5 by pghamhockey
grammar

[bender05]

So what’s the rule with playoffs now and penalties? How many kids are suspended and for how long? Was it only Allegheny kids suspended 

[James Gatz]

Total for Wildcats:   5 penalties (4 minors + 1 match). One player accounted for 2 of them, including a match.

Total for Badgers:  12 penalties (7 minors + 3 misconducts + 1 game misconduct + 1 match).  One player accounted for 3, including a match and a misconduct.  One player accounted for 2, both minors , and coach accounted for 2, including a game misconduct.  

 

Unless any of the players with a misconduct has 5 in the season, there should be no fall-out for the minors and misconducts.  The game misconduct will likely be an automatic 1 game for the coach.

 

The most serious consequences are for the match penalties.  This is speculation, but seems the rules may result in the following:

 

Immediate Suspension:  Both players are suspended from **all USA Hockey activities** (games, practices, team events) with all teams (including non-PAHL like high school) until a hearing is held. This starts immediately and lasts up to 30 days if no hearing occurs (rare; hearings are mandatory).

     - Hearing Process: PAHL Discipline Committee or Mid-Am (USA Hockey affiliate) reviews, typically offering a suspension length or requiring a full hearing. The player's family/association is notified. Representatives (e.g., parents, team rep) attend; outcomes can include multi-game suspensions or more based on severity.

     - Specific to the Wildcat (Removing Helmet): Under USA Hockey Rule 601(e) or 304 (equipment), deliberate helmet removal during an altercation is often treated as unsportsmanlike or intent to injure, leading to a match. Usual range on some reports is 1-3 game suspension post-hearing, plus any supplemental if part of a fight.

     - Specific to Badgers (Abuse of Officials):  If verbal/physical abuse (e.g., profane language, threats), it often results in longer suspensions (e.g., 3-5 games or more). Coaches with 3 abuse-related game misconducts in a season face suspension until a hearing. Progressive under Rule 411: Repeat offenses escalate.

 

The Badgers had exactly 12 penalties in the game, triggering an automatic 1-game suspension for the head coach.

 

 

 

[Carl Racki]

That's a lot of match penalties. Handing them out like candy at Halloween.  Hopefully they were all truly deserved.  Just seems like a like especially for abuse of official.  I would be curious to know.  If they touched,.spit,..  good call but if just arguing that seems to be a bit much in my opinion 

[Hockeyguy87]

21 hours ago, celly68 said:

What in the he— happened with the match penalties, misconducts, etc this weekend 

Wasn’t just the penalties either.I watched the game and one of the North Pgh goals they scored the Allegheny goalie got ran after he saved it then the puck trickled in once the player slashed and was on top of him.To say the least the officiating was ridiculous and they let that game get out of hand.

[pghamhockey]

The question of them being truly deserved is the exact issue. There was no touching, spitting our aggressive acts towards the referee in question. Just arguing with I am sure obscenities laced in.  

[Icebucket]

For a ref to hand out a match because a teenager said something to him is absurd. The problem is that no one ever holds the refs accountable because they are afraid they will quit if they get reprimanded. So in the end you get refs who are making very good money to do a very poor job for the most part.

How many other jobs out there are paying the hourly rate refs make and have zero accountability to improve, or even just do the job correctly?

[carroll81]

Remember that Hateful or Discriminatory language now requires a Match.  It can be a very innocuous word that teenagers may use regularly to friends and they slip and say it to an opponent or official.  If heard, requires a Match.  Such is the word we live in now.

[James Gatz]

6 minutes ago, carroll81 said:

Such is the word we live in now.

Hilarious Freudian slip.

[deanyoungblood]

3 hours ago, Icebucket said:

For a ref to hand out a match because a teenager said something to him is absurd. The problem is that no one ever holds the refs accountable because they are afraid they will quit if they get reprimanded. So in the end you get refs who are making very good money to do a very poor job for the most part.

How many other jobs out there are paying the hourly rate refs make and have zero accountability to improve, or even just do the job correctly?

It’s always the refs fault, right?  Couldn’t be parents or kids who don’t know how to act, probably learned from their parents. Looking forward to seeing you out there in the stripes next season.

I have coached travel for a number of years and the officiating in other towns seems way worse than what we have around here, generally speaking. There’s always exceptions, but for the most part our Pittsburgh area officials do a nice job compared to other cities. 

[aaaahockey]

27 minutes ago, deanyoungblood said:

It’s always the refs fault, right?  Couldn’t be parents or kids who don’t know how to act, probably learned from their parents. Looking forward to seeing you out there in the stripes next season.

I have coached travel for a number of years and the officiating in other towns seems way worse than what we have around here, generally speaking. There’s always exceptions, but for the most part our Pittsburgh area officials do a nice job compared to other cities. 

I agree with this. Especially in Ohio.  Not sure I've ever had a good ref out there. 

[Icebucket]

51 minutes ago, deanyoungblood said:

It’s always the refs fault, right?  Couldn’t be parents or kids who don’t know how to act, probably learned from their parents. Looking forward to seeing you out there in the stripes next season.

I have coached travel for a number of years and the officiating in other towns seems way worse than what we have around here, generally speaking. There’s always exceptions, but for the most part our Pittsburgh area officials do a nice job compared to other cities. 

I am not saying the players and parents aren't in the wrong in many cases.  I just think there needs to be even the slightest system in place to make sure refs are actually do the job correctly.  The players do get penalized and reprimanded when they are in the wrong.  The refs do not, and they are the ones getting paid.

There are plenty of good refs in the area, but it is a result of their own personal drive to do the job correctly and to improve.  Good on them.

[Carl Racki]

1 hour ago, deanyoungblood said:

It’s always the refs fault, right?  Couldn’t be parents or kids who don’t know how to act, probably learned from their parents. Looking forward to seeing you out there in the stripes next season.

I have coached travel for a number of years and the officiating in other towns seems way worse than what we have around here, generally speaking. There’s always exceptions, but for the most part our Pittsburgh area officials do a nice job compared to other cities. 

It's not, that just seems like a record for number of match penalties and it should be looked into to be sure everything is legitimate.  

[Corsi]

The 2 match penalties are the most severe, and both the "Removing a Helmet" and "Grabbing a Facemask".  Based on what happened in the altercation, the officials made the calls according to what the USA Hockey rulebook dictates:

615c:  "(c) A match penalty (for all age classifications) shall be assessed to any player who deliberately removes their helmet/facemask prior to an altercation."

622b/c:  "

(b) A major plus a game misconduct penalty shall be assessed to a player who uses their hand to rub, grab or hold the facemask of an opponent.

(c) A match penalty for reckless endangerment may also be assessed for grabbing or holding the facemask.

[deanyoungblood]

1 hour ago, Icebucket said:

I am not saying the players and parents aren't in the wrong in many cases.  I just think there needs to be even the slightest system in place to make sure refs are actually do the job correctly.  The players do get penalized and reprimanded when they are in the wrong.  The refs do not, and they are the ones getting paid.

There are plenty of good refs in the area, but it is a result of their own personal drive to do the job correctly and to improve.  Good on them.

Refs are all independent contractors, so there are minimal consequences other than not getting assignments. Typically over a large sample size the cream rises to the top and the better officials get more games, better games, and move on to higher levels (college, junior, pro etc). If officials get a reputation for letting games get out of hand or doing a poor job, they will be used less and less from what I have seen. USA Hockey can step in and suspend officials for extreme conduct violations, but they aren’t going to get involved and punish officials for judgment.

That’s just the reality of dealing with independent contractors, they are essentially their own boss. 

[HappyHockeyPucks]

Word is spreading about this game, and after reading the comments, it raises an important question: Who would want to work in an environment where a teenager feels entitled to say whatever they want, however they want, and that behavior is considered normal? The first incident falls on the player, but the referee set the standard and held everyone accountable. Every penalty after that is on the coach and parents for failing to tell their kids to be respectful and keep quiet. We need more refs like them!

[pghamhockey]

If you were at the game and feel that the referee set the correct standard in how all minor penalties were assessed and explained then I will respectfully disagree with your opinion. If you were not there and want still hold this opinion that I would suggest you watch the game then comment. 

[bender05]

6 hours ago, HappyHockeyPucks said:

 

Word is spreading about this game, and after reading the comments, it raises an important question: Who would want to work in an environment where a teenager feels entitled to say whatever they want, however they want, and that behavior is considered normal? The first incident falls on the player, but the referee set the standard and held everyone accountable. Every penalty after that is on the coach and parents for failing to tell their kids to be respectful and keep quiet. We need more refs like them!

Very true perspective . Would it be equally okay if a kid swore at a teacher or administrator at a school and didn’t get suspended or some kind of punishment. Yes hockey has a lot of swearing but this is a good point that why is it okay for adults to have kids swear at them on the ice but not anywhere else 

[XPs]

A reflection of a poor team culture and lack of discipline, and that responsibility ultimately falls on the coach.

[pghamhockey]

Ultimately all of you that want to be critical of the coach and parents of the team in question you are right. Coaches should keep their teams in check and parents should raise their children to be respectful. To that point referees are not obligated to explain calls but, doing so greatly assists in setting the standard of the game as someone referenced. What they are required to do is to keep a professional demeanor, which one certainly did not do. Both of these factors are what ultimately caused the penalties to get out of hand as it concerns the one referee and his interactions with the team. 

[Carl Racki]

13 hours ago, bender05 said:

Very true perspective . Would it be equally okay if a kid swore at a teacher or administrator at a school and didn’t get suspended or some kind of punishment. Yes hockey has a lot of swearing but this is a good point that why is it okay for adults to have kids swear at them on the ice but not anywhere else 

My point is match penalties shouldn't be handed out like candy.  You are correct, if the player swore at the ref there can be repercussions.  Usually that would be an unsportsmanlike conduct penalty, 10 minute misconduct or a game misconduct.  Just like in school there should be a punishment but shouldn't go directly to being expelled.  That to would be ridiculous.  Yes the match penalties for removing the helmet is fine as it is a rule.  I just get concerned when I see so many match penalties in one game.  Now if they used hateful or discriminatory language that too would require a match.  A match is not something taken lightly.  It shouldn't be used as a weapon.  I don't know the circumstances in this game but seems like a lot of match penalties and should probably be looked into.   

[Corsi]

44 minutes ago, Carl Racki said:

My point is match penalties shouldn't be handed out like candy.  You are correct, if the player swore at the ref there can be repercussions.  Usually that would be an unsportsmanlike conduct penalty, 10 minute misconduct or a game misconduct.  Just like in school there should be a punishment but shouldn't go directly to being expelled.  That to would be ridiculous.  Yes the match penalties for removing the helmet is fine as it is a rule.  I just get concerned when I see so many match penalties in one game.  Now if they used hateful or discriminatory language that too would require a match.  A match is not something taken lightly.  It shouldn't be used as a weapon.  I don't know the circumstances in this game but seems like a lot of match penalties and should probably be looked into.   

It does look like there was a ton of match penalties handed out, but the only way to get to the point where a confrontation with an official reaches a match there's only the following:

(e) A match penalty shall be assessed to any player or team official who commits the following actions:

1. Applies deliberate physical force or attempts to inflict physical harm to any game official, including off-ice officials.
   
   (Note) Any match penalty assessed under 601(e.1) of this  rule must be reported via written game report by the  officials no later than 24 hours following the game.
    
2. Behaving in any manner that is critically detrimental to the conducting of the game, including but not limited to spitting at an opponent, spectator, game or team official  opposing Team Official or opposing player with physical contact or harm.
3. Uses language that is hateful or discriminatory in nature anywhere in the rink before, during or after the game.

If the player didn't do 1 or 2, then it has to be the "hateful or discriminatory" language.