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whome87

Maybe one of pgh’s biggest money grabs

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1 minute ago, Ynot02 said:

I always find it amazing that people with no affiliation with a team who heard “something from someone” feel so compelled by what they heard that they create a username and write a long, detailed post defending said team (that they don’t have a player on). 🤔

Like the author of this thread!!

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1 minute ago, jmmartinprov1 said:

Like the author of this thread!!

Yes! And many others. 

Why does everyone care how others choose to spend their money? What one person views as a money grab, others see as an opportunity. To each their own. All of these AAA teams are likely not AAA talent, but there is no point in degrading anyone or their choices. 

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Posted (edited)
15 minutes ago, Ynot02 said:

Yes! And many others. 

Why does everyone care how others choose to spend their money? What one person views as a money grab, others see as an opportunity. To each their own. All of these AAA teams are likely not AAA talent, but there is no point in degrading anyone or their choices. 

Because at the end of the day it is not how others spend their money that is the issue, it is the lack of guidance and education on said product that has a trickle down impact at all levels.  Honestly I don't care who puts their money where, but when you create these faux AAA teams (Icemen, Preds and apparently Hornets since they split with Palmyra) that now takes 50-60 players out of the AA pool for PAHL.  Then because of this, you get 50-60 A level players, and parents, that now move up to a watered down AA and it continues down to A+, etc.  

So now the few money grabber teams basically allow entire subsets of people to move up higher than they should be per their skill/talent, and then that provides the misguided optics the following season when they then think their kid is AAA material.

So for the tide to eventually turn back to normal, and since MidAm allows these teams to form, it is up to the general public to try and provide a voice and educate people on these issues or it will continue to spiral out of control.  Just look at how many AAA organizations came into existence or expanded in the last 10 years.  And this includes places like SHAHA, Preds and others creating Squirt and PeeWee independent teams as well eluding playing PAHL that early, and the Vengeance/Renegades having dual independent/PAHL teams at these young levels.  The Pens already corrupted the 2011's with their Super Mites, so it is a big ship to turn around at this point.

Edited by HereWithPopcorn
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I’m very aware of the trickle down impact. However, you aren’t going to educate someone who isn’t interested in listening. It’s the parents who are creating the demand for these teams in the first place. These orgs see an opportunity and are capitalizing on it. It’s a business, period. Hockey is far from the only sport where this is happening. You hit the nail on the head - until USA Hockey and MIDAM do something about it, this situation will exist. Even if a few people see the light after the season, there will be others to take their place. I don’t see anything changing before my kids are done, so I just choose to control what I can - aligning my kids talents with what is worth my time and money. These families are probably thinking the same thing. They think they are doing what is best for their kids, and who doesn’t want that? 

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Shouldn’t you be upset with the PAHL programs for not giving the consumers what they want?  Thus, players and parents  to look elsewhere.  

 

And is really more like 50-60 U15 and 50-60 U16.  With something like 6-8 AA u16 teams you are doing something wrong if you have that many players and parents you are doing something wrong.

 

 

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21 minutes ago, twoboys said:

Shouldn’t you be upset with the PAHL programs for not giving the consumers what they want?  Thus, players and parents  to look elsewhere.  

 

And is really more like 50-60 U15 and 50-60 U16.  With something like 6-8 AA u16 teams you are doing something wrong if you have that many players and parents you are doing something wrong.

 

 

With the exception of Pens Elite, it’s the PAHL orgs who are rostering these AAA teams. So are the orgs not giving the consumers what they want, or is it more about PAHL?

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3 hours ago, twoboys said:

Shouldn’t you be upset with the PAHL programs for not giving the consumers what they want?  Thus, players and parents  to look elsewhere.  

 

And is really more like 50-60 U15 and 50-60 U16.  With something like 6-8 AA u16 teams you are doing something wrong if you have that many players and parents you are doing something wrong.

 

 

My kid plays for pahl but I know some people just would rather play independent games for one reason or another.  Not sure why anyone cares where other people’s kids play. 

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The underlying theme to all of these AAA posts seems to be that unless “Little Billy” started as a Mite in a AAA program (Insert name of program you find holy), he will never be a AAA player. Fact is most of the players currently rostered with all of the AAA programs came from PAHL and were once AA and A level players. All of the teams that are talked about have a core group of kids that will make teams year after year. They are usually the 10 kids On the ice in the 3rd period of a tight game while their teammates sit on the bench and watch. Those kids on the bench are usually cut the next year for a new batch of kids with high hopes and dreams. And so on, rinse and repeat....Maybe if all the AAA teams would actually schedule games against each other on a regular basis, rather than a chance matchup at a distant tournament, everyone that visits this board for the limited amount of useful information would be spared the constant sword fighting.

good day!

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On 8/26/2019 at 3:49 PM, Ynot02 said:

I’m very aware of the trickle down impact. However, you aren’t going to educate someone who isn’t interested in listening. It’s the parents who are creating the demand for these teams in the first place. These orgs see an opportunity and are capitalizing on it. It’s a business, period. Hockey is far from the only sport where this is happening. You hit the nail on the head - until USA Hockey and MIDAM do something about it, this situation will exist. Even if a few people see the light after the season, there will be others to take their place. I don’t see anything changing before my kids are done, so I just choose to control what I can - aligning my kids talents with what is worth my time and money. These families are probably thinking the same thing. They think they are doing what is best for their kids, and who doesn’t want that? 

Ynot02 is 100% correct and because we are focused on hockey doesn't mean this isn't happening across other sports as well, baseball and soccer jump to my mind first.  If you look at youth travel sports in general, there are the "top programs" and then there are the programs that were formed to fill a void in the market to make parents/players happy.  A parent making the choice to spend their time and money in that way should be no ones business but their own.  If a player has an opportunity to play on what he/she perceives to be a better team or one that provides better experiences, then go and do it.  If it doesn't work out for that person moving forward, then there are always other options and other players/parents will be more than willing to fill that players spot.  Why are we not happy that we even have players participating in the sport, especially with the sedentary lifestyle more and more kids are leading now?  Just because it is not for you, or you object to it on some other level, doesn't mean that you are any more correct than the person making the choice to play on those teams are wrong.

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1 hour ago, Snap Shot said:

Ynot02 is 100% correct and because we are focused on hockey doesn't mean this isn't happening across other sports as well, baseball and soccer jump to my mind first.  If you look at youth travel sports in general, there are the "top programs" and then there are the programs that were formed to fill a void in the market to make parents/players happy.  A parent making the choice to spend their time and money in that way should be no ones business but their own.  If a player has an opportunity to play on what he/she perceives to be a better team or one that provides better experiences, then go and do it.  If it doesn't work out for that person moving forward, then there are always other options and other players/parents will be more than willing to fill that players spot.  Why are we not happy that we even have players participating in the sport, especially with the sedentary lifestyle more and more kids are leading now?  Just because it is not for you, or you object to it on some other level, doesn't mean that you are any more correct than the person making the choice to play on those teams are wrong.

Baseball is the same. Kids don't want to play on rec teams so they play just tournament ball and in other competitive leagues that are just for travel teams and pay lots more than the other families but the tournament teams require the kids to be committed and attend all games and tournaments and rec teams will allow kids to miss. Some pahl teams have a lack of commitment but it is really the coaches who have to require the commitment 

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12 hours ago, PAhockey said:

Esmark 15u played the U16 AA arrows and lost 6-0 tonight 

Are you sure it wasn't Viper Stars 15U? There's an old tie-in between that team's coach and Armstrong. If it was Esmark, buckle up for a long season.

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11 minutes ago, sadday4hockey said:

Are you sure it wasn't Viper Stars 15U? There's an old tie-in between that team's coach and Armstrong. If it was Esmark, buckle up for a long season.

It was Esmark 15u.

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I for one appreciate some of the more recent posts to this thread.  I have multiple kids that have played from mites to midget.  They have played in PAHL programs, minor B, AA and AAA at bantam and midget.  I for one appreciate all the options there are for kids to play in Pittsburgh at whatever level they can compete at.  I don’t see any of this as a money grab.  I see the market responding to a need.  I see parents supporting player’s passion to improve.  I see coaches who enjoy teaching the game.  All the AAA teams popping up in the area shows the popularity of hockey.   Statements like money grab is a narrow view of the hockey landscape here in pittsburgh.  

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30 minutes ago, Hockey00 said:

Baseball is the same. Kids don't want to play on rec teams so they play just tournament ball and in other competitive leagues that are just for travel teams and pay lots more than the other families but the tournament teams require the kids to be committed and attend all games and tournaments and rec teams will allow kids to miss. Some pahl teams have a lack of commitment but it is really the coaches who have to require the commitment 

I would think it would be more accurate to say that most PAHL teams have a lack of commitment.  I can't tell you how many times I walk through various rinks and see teams holding practice with fewer than ten skaters. 

From my experience it is usually the top teams in each organization that require a significant commitment.  

 

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On 8/28/2019 at 12:01 PM, twoboys said:

I would think it would be more accurate to say that most PAHL teams have a lack of commitment.  I can't tell you how many times I walk through various rinks and see teams holding practice with fewer than ten skaters. 

From my experience it is usually the top teams in each organization that require a significant commitment.  

 

You are also correct.  This is where the expectations of the players, coaches, and parents all come into play.  Some of these people are simply happy that there son or daughter is playing a sport and having fun, while others (normally the more skilled players) are looking for more.  These players only have a few options depending on the size of the program they are participating in:  1)  hope that there are enough like skilled players with parents and coaches that are going to demand a commitment so that there is enough to field a team with the same high expectations and skill level.  or 2)  go to another organization which supplies what they are looking for.

People on this board need to stop placing the blame on parents and players, and start looking at the organizations, coaches, and hockey directors that are not doing enough to adequately serve this portion of their "customer base".  As with any other business or service, if a customer isn't getting what they want, they have the right to look elsewhere.  Successful businesses don't blame the customer for leaving, they try to find out why they are leaving and make changes to address what the cause is.  If organizations within PAHL began taking this approach, there is a chance that we could be looking at stronger teams at the AA level but until people in the hockey community start to look at what is causing players and parents to look for other options instead of jumping to the "they think their kid is the next Crosby" argument we are going to be forever stuck in this cycle.  

As for the "trickle down" where there's the perception that there are players on a higher level team that shouldn't be there because player's A and B went to another organization to play, the answer to that problem is simple...  The players who are moving up into those spots need to simply get better.

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I have said this before check out the Mighigan Hockey by-laws.  Organizations that have AAA teams are limited and must have a AAA team at all levels not just one team.  This promotes strong organizations and the formation of individual team clusters that we have in Pittsburgh.  It also drives the quality coaches to those organizations.  Until it is restricted we will still have AA players playing AAA hockey because the parents  think the kid is that good and there is a coach waiting to take that $$$$.

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2 hours ago, HSFBLJ said:

I have said this before check out the Mighigan Hockey by-laws.  Organizations that have AAA teams are limited and must have a AAA team at all levels not just one team.  This promotes strong organizations and the formation of individual team clusters that we have in Pittsburgh.  It also drives the quality coaches to those organizations.  Until it is restricted we will still have AA players playing AAA hockey because the parents  think the kid is that good and there is a coach waiting to take that $$$$.

I mostly agree with this. There are plenty of parents who shop around looking for the 'highest' team for their kids. It's often based upon misperceptions about the skill of their player, but not always. In any case, the proliferation of AAA and independent teams is largely due to this phenomenon.

It doesn't help that there are some high-end organizations that will take anyone willing to pay, especially at the younger ages, in order to partially fund their top teams. Lots of Pittsburgh area parents have been suckered by this practice, and it's really hurting girls hockey in particular around here right now.

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3 hours ago, Snap Shot said:

You are also correct.  This is where the expectations of the players, coaches, and parents all come into play.  Some of these people are simply happy that there son or daughter is playing a sport and having fun, while others (normally the more skilled players) are looking for more.  These players only have a few options depending on the size of the program they are participating in:  1)  hope that there are enough like skilled players with parents and coaches that are going to demand a commitment so that there is enough to field a team with the same high expectations and skill level.  or 2)  go to another organization which supplies what they are looking for.

People on this board need to stop placing the blame on parents and players, and start looking at the organizations, coaches, and hockey directors that are not doing enough to adequately serve this portion of their "customer base".  As with any other business or service, if a customer isn't getting what they want, they have the right to look elsewhere.  Successful businesses don't blame the customer for leaving, they try to find out why they are leaving and make changes to address what the cause is.  If organizations within PAHL began taking this approach, there is a chance that we could be looking at stronger teams at the AA level but until people in the hockey community start to look at what is causing players and parents to look for other options instead of jumping to the "they think their kid is the next Crosby" argument we are going to be forever stuck in this cycle.  

As for the "trickle down" where there's the perception that there are players on a higher level team that shouldn't be there because player's A and B went to another organization to play, the answer to that problem is simple...  The players who are moving up into those spots need to simply get better.

Some kids love hockey more than other kids.   Hockey might be their only thing.   Not everyone of these kids is a AAA.  Or even capable of making their organizations top PAHL team.  What happens if one of these kids gets placed on a team that doesn't require a commitment from its players?  A team that doesn't get decent attendance at practice because the other players are playing other sports too.  And the team only plays one or two tournaments when the top team is playing 5-7?  The player and the family are probable not happy and they are probably looking for a new team the next year.  I think there are more of these kids and parents than you think. 

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The preds u15 team is legit they beat Amherst Knights 5-2 meanwhile Esmark U15 lost to them 3-5 

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3 minutes ago, PeterThePuck said:

Have to be top 40 team to be considered AAA

anything 41 and up  is Glorified AA team

Is this a fact or just your opinion?

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You can send your kid to play Juniors in Canada for $12,000 a year to play Juniors.

What you get is:

Travel expenses include with Billet Family.

Off ice and team practices.

Your child will do online classes from your district school that Junior team has a tutor to help them doing the season 10 hours a week.

Season September to March then your child comes back home and attends his hometown school April, May and June.

Not a bad cost compared to PPE, Esmark, Icemen and Preds.

Plus competition would be better.

 

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21 minutes ago, PeterThePuck said:

You can send your kid to play Juniors in Canada for $12,000 a year to play Juniors.

What you get is:

Travel expenses include with Billet Family.

Off ice and team practices.

Your child will do online classes from your district school that Junior team has a tutor to help them doing the season 10 hours a week.

Season September to March then your child comes back home and attends his hometown school April, May and June.

Not a bad cost compared to PPE, Esmark, Icemen and Preds.

Plus competition would be better.

 

Don't you have to tryout to play Juniors in Canada?  So how many actual AAA players are there in Pittsburgh? Who has the final word as to what makes a AAA Hockey player. I don't understand all of the animosity toward AAA in Pittsburgh.

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On ‎8‎/‎30‎/‎2019 at 8:57 AM, Snap Shot said:

You are also correct.  This is where the expectations of the players, coaches, and parents all come into play.  Some of these people are simply happy that there son or daughter is playing a sport and having fun, while others (normally the more skilled players) are looking for more.  These players only have a few options depending on the size of the program they are participating in:  1)  hope that there are enough like skilled players with parents and coaches that are going to demand a commitment so that there is enough to field a team with the same high expectations and skill level.  or 2)  go to another organization which supplies what they are looking for.

People on this board need to stop placing the blame on parents and players, and start looking at the organizations, coaches, and hockey directors that are not doing enough to adequately serve this portion of their "customer base".  As with any other business or service, if a customer isn't getting what they want, they have the right to look elsewhere.  Successful businesses don't blame the customer for leaving, they try to find out why they are leaving and make changes to address what the cause is.  If organizations within PAHL began taking this approach, there is a chance that we could be looking at stronger teams at the AA level but until people in the hockey community start to look at what is causing players and parents to look for other options instead of jumping to the "they think their kid is the next Crosby" argument we are going to be forever stuck in this cycle.  

As for the "trickle down" where there's the perception that there are players on a higher level team that shouldn't be there because player's A and B went to another organization to play, the answer to that problem is simple...  The players who are moving up into those spots need to simply get better.

Respectfully disagree.  The organizations are listening, which is why they are doing what they are doing with these faux AAA Teams. 

You are correct to stop blaming the players, although no one here has ever blamed them. 

It is the parents fault, always has been, always will be.  They are just plain nuts.

Sorry to be the one to break it to you.

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