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Scooby Doo

Return of the Lousy Officiating

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@Ref33  Very rarely, we do get a crew who calls the game well and doesn't call ticky-tack crap on one team or another and calls it square.  RARELY.  I do give props when it's due, unfortunately though, about 80% of the games don't fall into that category, especially at the 16 & 18 AA levels.

Why is it that goalies are allowed to be whacked/slashed/piled upon but basically NEVER does the attacking team gets called for that?  In around 25 years of youth hockey, I have seen ONE penalty called against the attacking team and that was when a player skated in and after the whistle "iced" the goalie.  But I am still waiting to see a slashing or roughing call to be assessed for whacking the goalie's glove after the play has been blown dead.

 

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1st story from ~3 years ago.  @ New Kensington

Home game for our team.  Our team was winning (I believe 3-2).  During the final few seconds the puck is in our zone.  Horn blows.  Other team scores (literally) about 3 seconds after the horn. 

Ref adamantly waves "GOAL"!!  So the visiting team ties us on a goal scored AFTER the final horn.   

I am working the scoresheet and sitting at center ice in the box and I could clearly see the puck wasn't in when the horn blew - from 90 feet away!

Ref and coach have a big argument.  Ref says that "there is a delay for the horn to sound after the clock hits zero and the horn sounds after it hits zero".  So in the ref's mind the game WASN'T OVER until the HORN blew, not when the clock hit 0:00. 

We watch the livebarn video.  Clear as day goal you can see the clock go to 0:00, horn blows right at 0:00 and puck goes in 3-4 seconds later.  No matter, lost that win due to that officiating crew.  No repercussions for that crew for blowing a win for our team.

2nd Story from ~5-6 years ago also @ New Kensington

I believe we were first year bantams and played an early season game against a far superior Altoona team.  They blew our team out, probably like 10-0.  To show how much class Altoona had (at that time), they didn't call off the dogs and kept trying to score right up to the final buzzer.  In fact at the buzzer they're in our zone and trying to whack the puck into our net and on top of our goalie.  Horn sounds.  Our players shove the altoona kids away from our goalie.  The altoona kids don't like that and a melee breaks out in our zone and all the players have exited the benches and head to our zone for the fight. 

What do the refs do?  They skate to the center ice at the scorers box and watch the melee ensue.  I won't name names but these were two of the most very senior refs at New Ken at the time.

So our parents are yelling at the refs to go break up the fight (refs are standing around).  Instead of the ref's breaking up the fight one of them skates over to the HOME fans and has words with one of the female parents (while the fight is going on).  The mom is yelling at him to go break up the fight.  Ref says something like "don't tell me how to do my job!"  Parents yell back "Go stop the fight so that nobody gets hurt you dumbass!"

So what does the ref do?  Does he go break up the fight?  NO!  He throws one of the mom's out for questioning why he's not breaking up the fight.  Then he calls the police on her.  it was up to the coaches and managers to break up that fight as the refs barely lifted a finger to stop it - and these were 12 year olds!  Heck if those would have been midgets I guess that crew would have grabbed a 6 pack and downed a few while watching the fight.

 

Edited by Scooby Doo

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7 hours ago, Ref33 said:

Thank you so much for the welcome back! 

It's great to serve such an appreciative audience. 

☝️☝️☝️ That’s the exact attitude that you get from 80+% of the referees out there.  Arrogant Asshats!

That said, @Scooby Doo everyone has their own stories.  All you can pray for is that the referees come out, do their job, follow the rules and call a fair game.  Don’t hold your breath though!

To the 20%, thank you for your time and efforts.  Job well done!  Funny thing, y’all think you’re in the 20%.

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Scooby your kids must have been playing for the cup in both of those games eh?  Listening to coaches complain and cry all the time can't be fun.  Players constantly talking back and crazy people in the stands.  Yep, asshats for sure.  

Bad calls happen just like bad things in life happen.  Teach your kids to deal with adversity and not to constantly blame other people.

You are the same people that will be complaining about the FPP in a few weeks!

I don't think it is the job of the ref to break up a fight after the game is over, probably not even when the game is ongoing.  I'm not going anywhere near a bunch of 16-18 yr olds throwing punches.  

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I see a load of complaining from a bunch of guys who sure can officiate just fine from the stands.

I am not an official, and I wouldn't even attempt it. But here are my thoughts:

Do officials make bad calls? Yes.

Are there area rinks that seem to always have lower quality officiating? I think the answer to this is yes. I can think of one in particular that always seems to have questionable officiating.

Are games sometimes decided by a bad call at a bad moment? Yes, sometimes, and that's a shame. But I say that if you put yourself in a position for a ref to take a game from you that's really your fault. I don't think that's nearly as frequent as anecdotal stories seem to suggest.

Are there rinks who have frequent officials who are particularly friendly to the home teams? Well, I think that I can think of one (that might be my own biases creeping in). And that's also a shame. But to hear the hockey community talk, it sounds like every official is a 'homer' ref and you can't get a good ref anywhere. That is not true, in my view.

Officiating is really in a crisis right now. The statistics regarding young officials who drop out of it before they even finish their training are depressing. I'm sure sometimes it's that they just decided that officiating isn't for them, but we all know that a big reason why there are few of them (and getting fewer) is that they are constantly under attack. You can read more about this in the most recent issue of USA Hockey Magazine.

Officials are part of the game whether you're happy with them or not. And we can all hope that officiating in the southwestern PA area improves over time, but honestly I go to a large number of amateur and high school games, and the way parents behave makes me wonder why anyone would ever want to do that job. I wouldn't do it -  I've heard plenty of stories about parents waiting to accost officials after games. Nobody here will ever start a thread about how stupid and boorish that behavior is.

To be clear, I'm not defending poor officiating. Just amused by the whining.

Edited by Lifelongbender
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43 minutes ago, HSFBLJ said:

Scooby your kids must have been playing for the cup in both of those games eh?  Listening to coaches complain and cry all the time can't be fun.  Players constantly talking back and crazy people in the stands.  Yep, asshats for sure.  

Bad calls happen just like bad things in life happen.  Teach your kids to deal with adversity and not to constantly blame other people.

You are the same people that will be complaining about the FPP in a few weeks!

I don't think it is the job of the ref to break up a fight after the game is over, probably not even when the game is ongoing.  I'm not going anywhere near a bunch of 16-18 yr olds throwing punches.  

Not playing for the cup, smarta$$.  Just regular PAHL games where I expect a "close to" USA HOCKEY standard of officiating.  Not a bunch of old farts standing around doing nothing and calling a goal after the horn.

So I presume from your quote that you're ok with the refs let 12 year olds fight on the ice?  Who exactly do you want to break that up or shall they just brawl until everyone is bloody and injured? 

Most seasons, if your team plays 20 PAHL games with 20 different crews, you're likely to have 20 different ways the game is called.  That is not consistency. 

 

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Witnessed a game the other day where the puck was shot off of the cross-bar and into the netting above the glass. I wonder how many ref-bashers are certain where the face-off should take place? The parents on one team had no idea as they continued to scream at the ref that the puck hit the cross bar and he politely agreed with them and informed them that yes, it did and therefore the face-off stays deep in the zone. Many accepted that answer but a few did not and became more enraged and made sure to tell him to go home and learn the rules.

 

(c) When a stoppage of play occurs as the result of any action by the attacking team in the attacking zone, the ensuing face-off will take place at the nearest neutral zone face-off spot, unless the stoppage was a result of a shot going directly out of play off of the goal post or crossbar. 

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4 hours ago, Lifelongbender said:

Officials are part of the game whether you're happy with them or not. And we can all hope that officiating in the southwestern PA area improves over time, but honestly I go to a large number of amateur and high school games, and the way parents behave makes me wonder why anyone would ever want to do that job. I wouldn't do it -  I've heard plenty of stories about parents waiting to accost officials after games. Nobody here will ever start a thread about how stupid and boorish that behavior is.

To be clear, I'm not defending poor officiating. Just amused by the whining.

Actually, most people here would agree with that.  As I said in another thread just a few days ago, it is the parents that ruin everything.

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On 9/18/2019 at 8:46 PM, Scooby Doo said:

1st story from ~3 years ago.  @ New Kensington

Home game for our team.  Our team was winning (I believe 3-2).  During the final few seconds the puck is in our zone.  Horn blows.  Other team scores (literally) about 3 seconds after the horn. 

Ref adamantly waves "GOAL"!!  So the visiting team ties us on a goal scored AFTER the final horn.   

I am working the scoresheet and sitting at center ice in the box and I could clearly see the puck wasn't in when the horn blew - from 90 feet away!

 

2nd Story from ~5-6 years ago also @ New Kensington

hey skate to the center ice at the scorers box and watch the melee ensue.  I won't name names but these were two of the most very senior refs at New Ken at the time.

So our parents are yelling at the refs to go break up the fight (refs are standing around).  Instead of the ref's breaking up the fight one of them skates over to the HOME fans and has words with one of the female parents (while the fight is going on).  The mom is yelling at him to go break up the fight.  Ref says something like "don't tell me how to do my job!"  Parents yell back "Go stop the fight so that nobody gets hurt you dumbass!"

 

So for the first story - technically the referee is correct. Under USA Hockey if the scoreboard is equipped with a horn then that is what ends the game. Unless there is an OBVIOUS delay from the clock hitting zero and the horn sounding. You make it sound like it was obvious so they could have stopped it. We have a rink near me where it is obvious - everyone knows it and we react accordingly. 

 

The second story is just shit officiating. The correct procedure in that instance is go in as a team and break up two combatants. Take them off the ice and go back for two more. All the while watching everything else that is going on. It's not easy - believe me. And until you've been in the middle of it - you have no idea.

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Sooooo, after watching highly competitive 16u AAA  for a month where the officiating has been fairly decent PIHL Varsity started last night. Clearly a different rule book in the minds of the refs. Blow up open ice hits well after puck is gone with no calls and then a bunch of ticky tack calls for some pushing after whistles or two players scrummaging for the puck.  Hold on, this ride has just started!

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My son played two midget games last weekend. Both games were a few hours apart, against the same team.  The referees were different for each game.  The call style from game to game was absurd. 180 degrees from each other.  Game A was a normal hard hitting separate the guy from the puck hockey’s hockey game. Nothing outrageous, just a fun game to watch. Normal Hockey! Game B, played under the “new” rules. Penalty if you checked a player without touching the puck first.  Parents yelling, coaches yelling, players yelling, the tension and frustration was out of control.  In fact, the referees just about lost control of the game mainly because of their style of calling the game.  What’s its going to be?  I understand that the area and possibly the entire US is short on referees.  But, something has got to give.  The inconsistency from referee to referee and game to game is off the charts.  Referee by the rules this game and then the sissy rules the next game. (Yes, my opinion)  What are the players and coaches to do?  Ask the referees how they’re going to call the game before it starts.  Bottom line, the rules, system and training needs to be better.  Referees need to be more CONSISTENT, while caring more about the game & the players and less about themselves and/or their egos.  Question is, how can this happen?  Not sure it can.  Just have to deal with it.  Players and coaches are held accountable for their actions.  Penalties, game misconducts, suspensions, etc.  What do bad referees get?  Maybe there needs to be a national evaluation form for head coaches to fill out, if needed, on the referee.  They make a good wage per game and nobody has a say about how they do their job.  I believe head coaches should be able to do this.  Again, some referees are great.  Some (30%) truly care about what they are doing on the ice.  I can personally name 15-20 in the Pittsburgh area.  Others (70%), it’s just money to them!

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8 hours ago, PuckHead7 said:

Parents yelling, coaches yelling, players yelling, the tension and frustration was out of control.  In fact, the referees just about lost control of the game mainly because of their style of calling the game.  

wrong, it's not THEIR style causing the problem, it's the first group of refs who did NOT call the game correctly. the parental opinion of the USA hockey rule book is irrelevant and look man, i do totally agree with you in disliking some of the new rules, but they are the rules and the refs need to call the game by the rules, not some interpretation of the rules that the parents (or themselves) like better. I would imagine that in your scenario above you would put the game 1 refs in the 30% who care and the game 2 refs in the 70% who don't, but in reality, it's probably the opposite. the game 2 refs called the game correctly and ignored the pressure of screaming coaches, parents and players. their job is being made harder by refs who call games incorrectly, like the game one refs. everyone says they want consistency, but what they mean is they want the game called consistently how they think the game should be played.  I'll say it again, i agree with you that the "new" rules suck, but our opinion of them doesn't matter, at least not during game time. if there is some USA hockey rules petitioning process, do please let me know, and i will gladly sign up with you, but the fact of the matter is, your game 2 got out of control, because the refs in game 1 did not call the game correctly. 

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Posted (edited)
On 9/20/2019 at 3:26 PM, Ref33 said:

So for the first story - technically the referee is correct. Under USA Hockey if the scoreboard is equipped with a horn then that is what ends the game. Unless there is an OBVIOUS delay from the clock hitting zero and the horn sounding. You make it sound like it was obvious so they could have stopped it. We have a rink near me where it is obvious - everyone knows it and we react accordingly. 

 

The second story is just shit officiating. The correct procedure in that instance is go in as a team and break up two combatants. Take them off the ice and go back for two more. All the while watching everything else that is going on. It's not easy - believe me. And until you've been in the middle of it - you have no idea.

There is no delay in the buzzer at New Ken.  When the clock hits 0:00 the horn sounds.  It's not a goal when the puck enters the net 3 seconds later.  Most scoreboards are computer driven and hooked to an electric buzzer, not an air horn that needs to spool up.  We had video of the whole thing but the play is a judgement call by the refs and no matter how clear the video is, that point would have never been reversed.

Edited by Scooby Doo

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6 hours ago, miked said:

 

wrong, it's not THEIR style causing the problem, it's the first group of refs who did NOT call the game correctly. the parental opinion of the USA hockey rule book is irrelevant and look man, i do totally agree with you in disliking some of the new rules, but they are the rules and the refs need to call the game by the rules, not some interpretation of the rules that the parents (or themselves) like better. I would imagine that in your scenario above you would put the game 1 refs in the 30% who care and the game 2 refs in the 70% who don't, but in reality, it's probably the opposite. the game 2 refs called the game correctly and ignored the pressure of screaming coaches, parents and players. their job is being made harder by refs who call games incorrectly, like the game one refs. everyone says they want consistency, but what they mean is they want the game called consistently how they think the game should be played.  I'll say it again, i agree with you that the "new" rules suck, but our opinion of them doesn't matter, at least not during game time. if there is some USA hockey rules petitioning process, do please let me know, and i will gladly sign up with you, but the fact of the matter is, your game 2 got out of control, because the refs in game 1 did not call the game correctly. 

Fair enough!  I expressed my opinion that I liked game A better.  Yes, because of the hockey’s hockey play.  (Again, just a normal game, nothing out of control no huge hits, etc.  Hit only to separate player from puck.)  However, I didn’t say that I wouldn’t go along with the New Rules way.  I just want consistency, one way or the other.

Also, as a person that volunteers a lot, I’d gladly volunteer for USA hockey to give input on rule changes. 

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It reminds me of when the new Standard of Play was introduced.  It took about 2 months for the "standard" of how to implement the Standard to shake out.  The first weekend of games had every game with over 15 penalties per team.  It takes time for these things to be introduced, taught, digested and the implemented.  

Remember, this is not a rule  change year.  This is a change in how we are supposed to interpret the rules.  That is not something that you can just do automatically right away.   You have to see the plays, process the plays and then make a determination.  It takes time to redevelop the mental memory of what is and what is not a penalty.

In the handful of games I have worked, the AA level and above seems to be adjusting very easily.  The 16A and 18A are having the most problems.  Most coaches know of the changes, a couple had no clue that the changes happened.

PuckHead7, anyone can submit and comment on rule changes.  Next rule change year is 2021.  You can follow the process here: https://www.usahockey.com/rulesandresources

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