On 4/13/2026 at 2:25 PM, Duck Bill said:

They aren't, pretty sure they've always been a non-profit.

https://www.pittsburghpredators.com/about/about-us/82825

That's insane because they probably make more profit than anyone in the area but who am I to judge?

9 hours ago, aaaahockey said:

That's insane because they probably make more profit than anyone in the area but who am I to judge?

Huh? There is no "probably."  They are a nonprofit.  There would be legal consequences, like losing tax exempt status, if they turned a profit.  Their revenue has to line up with their expenses. Don't get revenue confused with profit.

Virtually all, EXCEPT the Vengeance, are set up that way. Because of that, the Vengeance CAN rake in more revenue than what is needed to cover expenses and pocket it.

12 hours ago, aaaahockey said:

That's insane because they probably make more profit than anyone in the area but who am I to judge?

 Non profits can make money, look at UPMC. 

2 hours ago, Duck Bill said:

Virtually all, EXCEPT the Vengeance, are set up that way. Because of that, the Vengeance CAN rake in more revenue than what is needed to cover expenses and pocket it.

Vengeance Tier 1 is a for profit organization as I understand it.  I do not know that the Steel City Ice Renegades/Vengeance Tier 2 is. for profit.  Isn't the tier 2 program the Pittsburgh Amateur Hockey Association, Inc.?  For anyone interested in looking at the non-profit tax returns, they are all publicly available.  The Pittsburgh Amateur Hockey Assoc on is at Pittsburgh Amateur Hockey Association Inc - Form 990 for period ending May 2025 - Nonprofit Explorer - ProPublica for example.    

4 minutes ago, James Gatz said:

Vengeance Tier 1 is a for profit organization as I understand it.  I do not know that the Steel City Ice Renegades/Vengeance Tier 2 is. for profit.  Isn't the tier 2 program the Pittsburgh Amateur Hockey Association, Inc.?  For anyone interested in looking at the non-profit tax returns, they are all publicly available.  The Pittsburgh Amateur Hockey Assoc on is at Pittsburgh Amateur Hockey Association Inc - Form 990 for period ending May 2025 - Nonprofit Explorer - ProPublica for example.    

Fair point.  I was only talking about the Tier 1 program.  When SCIR rebranded, I assume the organization itself wasn't dissolved but just used the new team name.  I don't know how much involvement Vengeance Tier 1 actually has with the operations of the Tier 2 organization other than the name.

4 minutes ago, Duck Bill said:

Fair point.  I was only talking about the Tier 1 program.  When SCIR rebranded, I assume the organization itself wasn't dissolved but just used the new team name.  I don't know how much involvement Vengeance Tier 1 actually has with the operations of the Tier 2 organization other than the name.

I have never done a study of the branding and identity of the formal rostering Hockey Associations to see, but I suspect wonder if there are some other for profit teams in the region.  The ones that come to mind are Icemen and certain, but not all, of teams playing under the Allegheny Badgers brand.  I'd define for profit as "not a registered 501(C)(3)."  Being a for profit entity does not always mean a profit maximizing heartless monster.  I think Icemen are for profit (ie not a registered non-profit) but they don't seem to be in it for a money grab.  

1 minute ago, James Gatz said:

I have never done a study of the branding and identity of the formal rostering Hockey Associations to see, but I suspect wonder if there are some other for profit teams in the region.  The ones that come to mind are Icemen and certain, but not all, of teams playing under the Allegheny Badgers brand.  I'd define for profit as "not a registered 501(C)(3)."  Being a for profit entity does not always mean a profit maximizing heartless monster.  I think Icemen are for profit (ie not a registered non-profit) but they don't seem to be in it for a money grab.  

Isn't the Icemen the Butler Valley Youth Hockey Association? And the Badgers are the Allegheny Hockey Association?

I agree that being for profit doesn't necessarily make you a monster.  I think that many, if not most, hockey associations are 501(c)(3) specifically because of their role as a youth sports organization, though.  Being a private, for profit organization means there is less transparency and can definitely lead to questions. Most don't want to be seen as making profits off of a youth service like sports.

7 minutes ago, Duck Bill said:

Isn't the Icemen the Butler Valley Youth Hockey Association? And the Badgers are the Allegheny Hockey Association?

 

I don't know the answers.  Not that free AI is much to be trusted, but it may be that Icemen are rostered by the Pittsburgh (PHA) Icemen Hockey Club.  I didn't know if some of the independent Badgers teams were rostered by Black Bear.  At some point it can be semantics.  The non-profits single biggest expense/liability is paying the landlord for ice.  Many of the landlords are for profit, and carry significant influence over the nonprofit tenants. 

4 hours ago, Duck Bill said:

Huh? There is no "probably."  They are a nonprofit.  There would be legal consequences, like losing tax exempt status, if they turned a profit.  Their revenue has to line up with their expenses. Don't get revenue confused with profit.

Virtually all, EXCEPT the Vengeance, are set up that way. Because of that, the Vengeance CAN rake in more revenue than what is needed to cover expenses and pocket it.

Owning the rink, they make a ton of profit.  They could forget the registration money etc but it's an odd setup.   

5 hours ago, Duck Bill said:

Huh? There is no "probably."  They are a nonprofit.  There would be legal consequences, like losing tax exempt status, if they turned a profit.  Their revenue has to line up with their expenses. Don't get revenue confused with profit.

Virtually all, EXCEPT the Vengeance, are set up that way. Because of that, the Vengeance CAN rake in more revenue than what is needed to cover expenses and pocket it.

Ralph is a smart man. The preds non-profit status can offer a massive tax break for ice castle. Nothing illegal, just a smart man who knows how to dance around Uncle Sam.

41 minutes ago, Icebucket said:

Ralph is a smart man. The preds non-profit status can offer a massive tax break for ice castle. Nothing illegal, just a smart man who knows how to dance around Uncle Sam.

Totally agree with you on this one.   Making Preds Non-Profit but paying your kids to coach/run the pro-shop/etc and taking the ice fees etc is pretty smart.   Black Bear has some things to learn from him! 

3 hours ago, Icebucket said:

Ralph is a smart man. The preds non-profit status can offer a massive tax break for ice castle. Nothing illegal, just a smart man who knows how to dance around Uncle Sam.

I don’t know how smart he is but his business model is certainly pretty genius. Pay his kids through a non-profit. Nothing illegal. But maybe it should be? 

14 hours ago, Happy Hockey Fan said:

I don’t know how smart he is but his business model is certainly pretty genius. Pay his kids through a non-profit. Nothing illegal. But maybe it should be? 

I fail to see what's so nefarious about anything you guys are talking about.  The fact that the hockey organization is a nonprofit gives visibility to all of that.

The ice rinks themselves, regardless of ownership, are entirely different animals.  Their expenses, from owning property, maintaining the rinks and building, etc., are completely different than running a youth hockey organization.  I would venture to guess the employees mostly work for the rinks and not the hockey organizations when you look around the facilities.  And having family members work at rinks isn't out of the ordinary or strange, just like it's not weird to see in any business.  The kids of the owners of Baierl work for the rinks, too (or did at some point), and are/were actively involved in the youth hockey associations there.

I'd understand your point if the nonprofit youth organizations had funny numbers, like they were being charged way more than normal for ice time or something similar.  However, those numbers are public.  Now, I don't know who owns Alpha, or Alpha Tournament Company, but that is a much worse scenario when the Tier 1 hockey team there is a for profit organization where there is zero visibility as to how the money circulates.  I know the Vengeance Tier 1 team just sends you a number for what you owe without any breakdown of expenses whatsoever.

Edited April 16Apr 16 by Duck Bill

4 hours ago, Duck Bill said:

I fail to see what's so nefarious about anything you guys are talking about.  The fact that the hockey organization is a nonprofit gives visibility to all of that.

The ice rinks themselves, regardless of ownership, are entirely different animals.  Their expenses, from owning property, maintaining the rinks and building, etc., are completely different than running a youth hockey organization.  I would venture to guess the employees mostly work for the rinks and not the hockey organizations when you look around the facilities.  And having family members work at rinks isn't out of the ordinary or strange, just like it's not weird to see in any business.  The kids of the owners of Baierl work for the rinks, too (or did at some point), and are/were actively involved in the youth hockey associations there.

I'd understand your point if the nonprofit youth organizations had funny numbers, like they were being charged way more than normal for ice time or something similar.  However, those numbers are public.  Now, I don't know who owns Alpha, or Alpha Tournament Company, but that is a much worse scenario when the Tier 1 hockey team there is a for profit organization where there is zero visibility as to how the money circulates.  I know the Vengeance Tier 1 team just sends you a number for what you owe without any breakdown of expenses whatsoever.

I didn’t say it was nefarious. I did say that maybe it should be. The use of non-profit status is way over used in my opinion. Anytime you are in control of a non-profit that pays money to a for profit organization that you also run, there is room for malfeasance.  It so goes our current tax laws. 

Does anyone actually have factual information about the 14U or 16U teams at Vengeance? I have seen a lot of rumors that teams folded, but nothing definitive. 

5 hours ago, Duck Bill said:

I fail to see what's so nefarious about anything you guys are talking about.  The fact that the hockey organization is a nonprofit gives visibility to all of that.

The ice rinks themselves, regardless of ownership, are entirely different animals.  Their expenses, from owning property, maintaining the rinks and building, etc., are completely different than running a youth hockey organization.  I would venture to guess the employees mostly work for the rinks and not the hockey organizations when you look around the facilities.  And having family members work at rinks isn't out of the ordinary or strange, just like it's not weird to see in any business.  The kids of the owners of Baierl work for the rinks, too (or did at some point), and are/were actively involved in the youth hockey associations there.

I'd understand your point if the nonprofit youth organizations had funny numbers, like they were being charged way more than normal for ice time or something similar.  However, those numbers are public.  Now, I don't know who owns Alpha, or Alpha Tournament Company, but that is a much worse scenario when the Tier 1 hockey team there is a for profit organization where there is zero visibility as to how the money circulates.  I know the Vengeance Tier 1 team just sends you a number for what you owe without any breakdown of expenses whatsoever.

Would "Funny Numbers" be something like a non-profit getting taken over by a large for profit company and their revenue jumping from $600,000 to $1.6 million in 3 years, but not adding the equivalent number of teams to justify this jump? Or did team fee increase by that much because of the increase in price since said large for profit company also operates the rink?

44 minutes ago, theyrekids said:

Would "Funny Numbers" be something like a non-profit getting taken over by a large for profit company and their revenue jumping from $600,000 to $1.6 million in 3 years, but not adding the equivalent number of teams to justify this jump? Or did team fee increase by that much because of the increase in price since said large for profit company also operates the rink?

I can guess which organization you are referring to, but a 209% increase over three years in "Membership/Dues" without a change in offerings should raise questions.

Looking at that same organization's filing, the expenses for occupancy didn't change much.  I see the biggest difference as what they list as "tournament fees" expenses.  2021 listed them as $15,313.  2024 listed them as $312,078.  Having a net income in 2024 of almost a half a million dollars should also raise some questions, although 2025 looked more even.

Edited April 16Apr 16 by Duck Bill

1 hour ago, Duck Bill said:

I can guess which organization you are referring to, but a 209% increase over three years in "Membership/Dues" without a change in offerings should raise questions.

Looking at that same organization's filing, the expenses for occupancy didn't change much.  I see the biggest difference as what they list as "tournament fees" expenses.  2021 listed them as $15,313.  2024 listed them as $312,078.  Having a net income in 2024 of almost a half a million dollars should also raise some questions, although 2025 looked more even.

Sounds like the organization added in a tournament budget per team or expanded the existing tournament budget

8 hours ago, XPs said:

Does anyone actually have factual information about the 14U or 16U teams at Vengeance? I have seen a lot of rumors that teams folded, but nothing definitive. 

18u, 2015, 2009,2012, 2013 vengeance tier 1 all folded. I’ll be surprised if they have a tier 1 program after the 2011’s are done. Half of the 12’s tried out at stars and Preds. 2013 most went to the Stars.

Edited April 17Apr 17 by Chia95

21 hours ago, Happy Hockey Fan said:

I didn’t say it was nefarious. I did say that maybe it should be. The use of non-profit status is way over used in my opinion. Anytime you are in control of a non-profit that pays money to a for profit organization that you also run, there is room for malfeasance.  It so goes our current tax laws. 

The church says "hold my beer."

8 hours ago, fafa fohi said:

The church says "hold my beer."

Largest landholder in the world

11 hours ago, fafa fohi said:

The church says "hold my beer."

Didn't know Ralph was feeding the poor but I'm sure someone could make a meme of him doing it or maybe even raising the dead.  

On 4/16/2026 at 9:56 PM, Chia95 said:

18u, 2015, 2009,2012, 2013 vengeance tier 1 all folded. I’ll be surprised if they have a tier 1 program after the 2011’s are done. Half of the 12’s tried out at stars and Preds. 2013 most went to the Stars.

And the best 2013 Pens kids that didn’t make Pens went to Preds

Edited April 21Apr 21 by hockeydadx3

8 minutes ago, hockeydadx3 said:

And the best 2013 Pens kids that didn’t make Pens went to Preds

Did they bump the returning 13's down to Tier 2 Preds?

Edited April 21Apr 21 by XPs

On 4/16/2026 at 9:56 PM, Chia95 said:

18u, 2015, 2009,2012, 2013 vengeance tier 1 all folded. I’ll be surprised if they have a tier 1 program after the 2011’s are done. Half of the 12’s tried out at stars and Preds. 2013 most went to the Stars.

Holy Moly... what is going on there?!?