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Not sure how you think that this thread is the best place to contribute to the placement discussion. That presumes someone from that committee is reading it and will remember this feedback come next season. 

It sucks to be misplaced. It happens. Can people do better? Yes. And MHR is a tool to be taken with a grain of salt as others have said. It is useful, but that usefulness is limited. I don't know how many times my kids have gone to a tournament and on paper, should have blown away a team per the rankings or vice versa and that didn't pan out, or got misplaced in a tournament using that ranking. It's not that the scores are reported inaccurately, but like others said, there are other ways coaches fudge. PAHL organizations play under different banners to influence rankings, because if they are trying to play independent games, they know their games played in PAHL will drag down their MHR. It happens. 

Early in the season, MHR is less useful than later in the season. Not all teams are reporting because they could care less what their ranking is. As more and more games are played and reported, it becomes more useful.

I find it is better to judge competition by looking at what teams have played, if available. I know if my kid's team played a common team, I can get an idea of how they will likely stack up by looking at those scores.

Placement is still an art. The numbers don't tell you everything, but they are useful. I think the point is, if you have all the answers, go volunteer some time. 

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this is tough situation because I understand and agree with your sentiment, absolutely you want the fairest divisions so the kids have the most fun, but the PAHL placement isn't the real problem. It could probably be better, but just picking some teams that are losing and saying PAHL is wrong is not correct. 

First, why are you bringing myhockey rankings into a discussion on PAHL placement? What bearing does the result of tournaments and one off games have to do with PAHL placement? The only way to judge PAHL placement is by looking at PAHL games and so far most teams have only played about 5. I quickly did a check on the 0-5 Foxes 277 and see that they lost 2 bad ones to what seems to be a good Southpointe team and then had some close ones. 

Second, even looking at the PAHL scores don't give you an accurate picture of what is going on with a team. PW is a very transitional time. The kids are all getting big and strong enough to close gaps and break away hockey is ending. Some kids just refuse or take more time to adjust. They are used to being the big goal scorer on all their teams and now they are getting totally shut down. the lower PW ranks still have a good amount of break away action going on, so the question is, would you rather your kid move down and keep playing wrong, or suffer through a rough season but learn how to play the game properly, so they have a shot at making a decent team later on life? Don't assume all parents only care about winning and don't assume all kids only care about winning. Making friends is more important to most of them. 

Third, this entire situation though, can be traced to what has been discussed on this board over and over. i hate to bring it up due to the massive flame war the generally ensues, but the problem comes from all the independent and AAA teams getting formed around town. Look, i'm a capitalist, i believe in consumers having the right to spend money on whatever they want, but to an extent. The FDA would prevent a restaurant from serving an Asbestos Burger. the amount of consumer demand would be irrelevant. at some point some governing body needs to step in and do what is best for the kids. What we have now is a somewhat diluted PAHL AA, that trickles down. Just watch a game and you will see that most teams have a couple kids they need to hide. Those kids though would be fine one division down. Should the whole team go down though? If you cut out all the extraneous "elite" level hockey in the area, all these kids would get pushed down into their proper levels and alot more kids would get cut completely and play house league or B. there is no shame there. having strong house leagues would only make youth hockey stronger over all in the area.

Fourth more placement games aren't going to help. Kids are on vacation, don't care, coaches are still trying to determine who plays well together. fall sports are taking up some kids time and energy. 

again, i appreciate the sentiment of making things as best you can for the kids, but the issue doesn't fully lie in the PAHL placements. 

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A couple people mentioned this above but I get really sick of teams who want to place themselves lower simply because they aren't going to win it all. I've seen it several times and even heard of coaches who want to lose placement games to give themselves a better shot at a banner. That's not fun hockey either. Probably happens less at the higher end of the standings but sometimes you are going to lose a little. 

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11 hours ago, lferg said:

As far as not using MHR, sorry, but you are not correct. The scores are submitted as of Aug 25, and include PAHL placement games. It is the most accurate publicly available source for determining team skill level. I can't speak for the entire site, but I am yet to find any discrepancy in reported games for Tier 2 12U PAHL group.

Yes, you can enter scores, however I believe that this year the initial rankings were released on Wednesday 9/18. It may have even been 9/25. Keep digging though, I'm sure you'll find something.

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6 hours ago, aaaahockey said:

A couple people mentioned this above but I get really sick of teams who want to place themselves lower simply because they aren't going to win it all. I've seen it several times and even heard of coaches who want to lose placement games to give themselves a better shot at a banner. That's not fun hockey either. Probably happens less at the higher end of the standings but sometimes you are going to lose a little. 

It works both ways.  There's plenty of anabolic coaches and parents out there that want to brag about their kids being in a division where they don't belong.  

Ask the parents from last years 2007 BY Renegades team how their season went.  Going 8-28-3 in PW AA just so they can wear an extra A didn't work out so well for them.  And to think there were those within SCIR that felt they should have two, yes two teams in PW AA ( 06 and 07 ) was absolute nonsense.  

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Good feedback. Thanks all.

Couple things can be done here. One, is to see how placement is done in other associations of comparable size. And second, is to survey the coaches toward the end of the season.

Who knows may be PAHL is doing this already...

 

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5 hours ago, lferg said:

Good feedback. Thanks all. 

Couple things can be done here. One, is to see how placement is done in other associations of comparable size.

Do you mean associations, or leagues? If you mean leagues, look them up on MHR and do a comparison. You’ll find that the rating spread in their divisions is very similar to PAHL, or worse. 

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2 hours ago, Saucey said:

I was surprised when we went to the Hershey tournament to learn that they don't do divisions. If you are 12u, that is your division. PAHL is ahead of the game in comparison to that.

Wow that could be ugly. They seriously don't even divide the teams at all?

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11 hours ago, aaaahockey said:

Wow that could be ugly. They seriously don't even divide the teams at all?

Agreed.  I've seen competition at this tournament that was just unfair.  Normally, this is a pre-season tournament and I've seen AA teams use it as "tune up" and say they are "A" because they technically haven't been placed yet.  It gets ugly.  

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14 hours ago, aaaahockey said:

Wow that could be ugly. They seriously don't even divide the teams at all?

That was my understanding...might have been AA and everyone else. I was very surprised. In working with the tourney director, I would give our PAHL division, and he didn't care because they just don't divvy any further. I used my hockey rankings to argue my way into playing a competitive schedule, but ya, could have been a mess. I avoid tournaments on that end of the state for that reason, unless I have a AA team.

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On 11/15/2019 at 10:19 AM, miked said:

this is tough situation because I understand and agree with your sentiment, absolutely you want the fairest divisions so the kids have the most fun, but the PAHL placement isn't the real problem. It could probably be better, but just picking some teams that are losing and saying PAHL is wrong is not correct. 

First, why are you bringing myhockey rankings into a discussion on PAHL placement? What bearing does the result of tournaments and one off games have to do with PAHL placement? The only way to judge PAHL placement is by looking at PAHL games and so far most teams have only played about 5. I quickly did a check on the 0-5 Foxes 277 and see that they lost 2 bad ones to what seems to be a good Southpointe team and then had some close ones. 

Second, even looking at the PAHL scores don't give you an accurate picture of what is going on with a team. PW is a very transitional time. The kids are all getting big and strong enough to close gaps and break away hockey is ending. Some kids just refuse or take more time to adjust. They are used to being the big goal scorer on all their teams and now they are getting totally shut down. the lower PW ranks still have a good amount of break away action going on, so the question is, would you rather your kid move down and keep playing wrong, or suffer through a rough season but learn how to play the game properly, so they have a shot at making a decent team later on life? Don't assume all parents only care about winning and don't assume all kids only care about winning. Making friends is more important to most of them. 

Third, this entire situation though, can be traced to what has been discussed on this board over and over. i hate to bring it up due to the massive flame war the generally ensues, but the problem comes from all the independent and AAA teams getting formed around town. Look, i'm a capitalist, i believe in consumers having the right to spend money on whatever they want, but to an extent. The FDA would prevent a restaurant from serving an Asbestos Burger. the amount of consumer demand would be irrelevant. at some point some governing body needs to step in and do what is best for the kids. What we have now is a somewhat diluted PAHL AA, that trickles down. Just watch a game and you will see that most teams have a couple kids they need to hide. Those kids though would be fine one division down. Should the whole team go down though? If you cut out all the extraneous "elite" level hockey in the area, all these kids would get pushed down into their proper levels and alot more kids would get cut completely and play house league or B. there is no shame there. having strong house leagues would only make youth hockey stronger over all in the area.

Fourth more placement games aren't going to help. Kids are on vacation, don't care, coaches are still trying to determine who plays well together. fall sports are taking up some kids time and energy. 

again, i appreciate the sentiment of making things as best you can for the kids, but the issue doesn't fully lie in the PAHL placements. 

Honestly, you have it wrong.  The fact that some of the teams are dominating is due to the fact that they have one or two players who do belong in a particular division.  They belong in AAA or AA but are playing A Major black.  The damage is done by the stars of a particular team.

 

 

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1 minute ago, twoboys said:

It is a tough decision.  I know my daughter's PAHL team is probably misplaced.  We were on the bubble and it could have gone eiehter way.  We would have been the top of a lower  level or the bottom of a tougher.  we got put in the tougher level.  our record isn't the greatest but the games are faster and I think she is getting better.  I'd rather a coach try to push a team then play down just to get more w's

 

Honestly, you have it wrong.  The fact that some of the teams are dominating is due to the fact that they have one or two players who do belong in a particular division.  They belong in AAA or AA but are playing A Major black.  The damage is done by the stars of a particular team.

 

 

 

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Just now, Pghbus36 said:

 

I get it.  It all depends on how bad the losses are. 

I think some of the scores are made worse by coaches riding their stars.  For example, if you are winning easily maybe you should give some other players a chance to kill a penalty or participate on a power play. 

PAHL knows who scores the goals.  If a player scores so easily in one division he single handily can and should lift a team to a different division.

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Honestly, you have it wrong.  The fact that some of the teams are dominating is due to the fact that they have one or two players who do belong in a particular division.  They belong in AAA or AA but are playing A Major black.  The damage is done by the stars of a particular team.

 

i don't really see this too much. Some of the smaller orgs sometimes have a kid or two that are above their current division, but they usually have a few more kids that should be 2 if not 3 divisions down. not much to be done about that. but sure there is always a kid here of there that is obviously the best player on the ice, but i don't see them running wild over the entire other team. but even if this is more prevalent than i'm aware of, funneling the talent back into PAHL instead of all these "elite" programs would go a long way to eliminate the situation. To use A Major black as the example, if these kids returned to PAHL, a bunch of current AA kids would get moved down to Gold, in turn moving Gold kids down to black. the top black kids would become middle of the pack and the team would be stronger overall and better able to handle the opponents, "super star". 

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21 minutes ago, miked said:

Honestly, you have it wrong.  The fact that some of the teams are dominating is due to the fact that they have one or two players who do belong in a particular division.  They belong in AAA or AA but are playing A Major black.  The damage is done by the stars of a particular team.

 

i don't really see this too much. Some of the smaller orgs sometimes have a kid or two that are above their current division, but they usually have a few more kids that should be 2 if not 3 divisions down. not much to be done about that. but sure there is always a kid here of there that is obviously the best player on the ice, but i don't see them running wild over the entire other team. but even if this is more prevalent than i'm aware of, funneling the talent back into PAHL instead of all these "elite" programs would go a long way to eliminate the situation. To use A Major black as the example, if these kids returned to PAHL, a bunch of current AA kids would get moved down to Gold, in turn moving Gold kids down to black. the top black kids would become middle of the pack and the team would be stronger overall and better able to handle the opponents, "super star". 

I watch a lot of Peewee hockey.  And it is the top kids that drive a team.  The bottom kids are never on a power play or penalty kill.  The third line kids have shorter shifts too. 

At Peewee you only have one 07 AAA team that isn't the Gold.  I think the Black has 12 skaters and one is an 08.  Do you really think that those 12 skaters will alter AA much?  They won't.  AAA isn't the problem for Peewee.  At Peewee kids start moving around.  Look at Allegheny 07 AA this year who leading AA right now.  They basically blew up the team and started over.  How many different organizations lost kids to them this year?  I heard 6. 

 

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6 hours ago, twoboys said:

I watch a lot of Peewee hockey.  And it is the top kids that drive a team.  The bottom kids are never on a power play or penalty kill.  The third line kids have shorter shifts too. 

At Peewee you only have one 07 AAA team that isn't the Gold.  I think the Black has 12 skaters and one is an 08.  Do you really think that those 12 skaters will alter AA much?  They won't.  AAA isn't the problem for Peewee.  At Peewee kids start moving around.  Look at Allegheny 07 AA this year who leading AA right now.  They basically blew up the team and started over.  How many different organizations lost kids to them this year?  I heard 6. 

 

At 12u coaches shouldn't have a power play unit and top lines yet. Chasing the banner over development. Parents should be pissed if that is going on. Every kid should be getting opportunities to do all these things. 

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100% correct Saucey and honestly, i don't think i've seen a PAHL PW team that doesn't just roll their kids for the most part. 

So you're saying the only PW AAA team in the area is the PPE 07 Gold and Black?  Pretty sure there is a PPE 08 Gold and Black as well. So eliminating the black would put 24 skaters back into PAHL if both black teams are as short as you say. Still, 24 skaters isn't going to tip the scale much, but i'm pretty sure there are multiple other PW AAA teams in the area. I'm pretty sure that you could easily put 50-60 kids back into PAHL and that would have a trickle down effect. Whether it's the top kids driving or the bottom kids being exploited, it is the same issue, the disparity between skater 1 and skater 15 is to large on most teams. and to the point of this discussion, PAHL placement isn't going to be able fix that. 

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1 hour ago, miked said:

100% correct Saucey and honestly, i don't think i've seen a PAHL PW team that doesn't just roll their kids for the most part. 

So you're saying the only PW AAA team in the area is the PPE 07 Gold and Black?  Pretty sure there is a PPE 08 Gold and Black as well. So eliminating the black would put 24 skaters back into PAHL if both black teams are as short as you say. Still, 24 skaters isn't going to tip the scale much, but i'm pretty sure there are multiple other PW AAA teams in the area. I'm pretty sure that you could easily put 50-60 kids back into PAHL and that would have a trickle down effect. Whether it's the top kids driving or the bottom kids being exploited, it is the same issue, the disparity between skater 1 and skater 15 is to large on most teams. and to the point of this discussion, PAHL placement isn't going to be able fix that. 

I disagree.  Peewee teams at A Major Black, AA and AAA do not just roll lines when it comes to Penalty Kill and Power Play.  Sure they do sometimes but not all the times.        

The only other Peewee AAA team is the 08 Vengeance.  You can not complain about them cause they are 15 in the country.  So, you are left with 12 from the 07 Black and 15 from the 08 Black.  Can't expect the 08 Black to come back to PAHL cause most of those kids have never played PAHL.  The 07 Black on the other hand is mostly made up of kids that left PAHL after 3 years. 

If you really want to improve AA, organizations should limit the number or kids on AA teams to 12 or 13.  The problem then becomes you really need perfect attendance and it becomes more expensive.   

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Just now, twoboys said:

I disagree.  Peewee teams at A Major Black, AA and AAA do not just roll lines when it comes to Penalty Kill and Power Play.  Sure they do sometimes but not all the times.        

The only other Peewee AAA team is the 08 Vengeance.  You can not complain about them cause they are 15 in the country.  So, you are left with 12 from the 07 Black and 15 from the 08 Black.  Can't expect the 08 Black to come back to PAHL cause most of those kids have never played PAHL.  The 07 Black on the other hand is mostly made up of kids that left PAHL after 3 years. 

If you really want to improve AA, organizations should limit the number or kids on AA teams to 12 or 13.  The problem then becomes you really need perfect attendance and it becomes more expensive.   

You also need to improve AA by picking the best players that can play in AA.  Alot of organizations keep their AA (or BY) teams together because the parents are all friends and they just want to keep the team together (which keeping the team together has its merits, if the players are all of high caliber).  During tryouts, when you see a kid placed in an A minor team of one organization and make the AA team of another organization, you have to think something is amiss.  

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7 minutes ago, Ihearthockey said:

During tryouts, when you see a kid placed in an A minor team of one organization and make the AA team of another organization, you have to think something is amiss.  

That usually happens when the kid makes team number 3 of 4/5 at a large club and team number 1 of 2 at a small club.  Usually, the smaller clubs teams have a wider skill range.  Top team might have AA to low A+ players.  Bottom team, A- and B players.  Larger clubs the skill range is much closer.

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Just now, PuckHead7 said:

That usually happens when the kid makes team number 3 of 4/5 at a large club and team number 1 of 2 at a small club.  Usually, the smaller clubs teams have a wider skill range.  Top team might have AA to low A+ players.  Bottom team, A- and B players.  Larger clubs the skill range is much closer.

Not always, but I get what you're saying.  

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42 minutes ago, PuckHead7 said:

That usually happens when the kid makes team number 3 of 4/5 at a large club and team number 1 of 2 at a small club.  Usually, the smaller clubs teams have a wider skill range.  Top team might have AA to low A+ players.  Bottom team, A- and B players.  Larger clubs the skill range is much closer.

I have to say I agree with a lot of what has been said in this thread...  I definitely agree with what I quoted above. 

It is a population size question when it comes to smaller organizations.  Think about organizations that have the ability to put 4 or 5 teams into a given division vs. the teams that put 1 or 2.  The top team in the smaller organization probably only have 1 or 2 players that could make the top team in the bigger organization.  They then have to fill out the rest of the roster with players that may only make the 3rd team in the larger organization but are now playing on the top team in the smaller.  

This leads back to the idea that 1 or 2 players can carry a team, and in the situation above, the answer is yes.  If the team is "placed" into a division that is at a significantly lower skill level than the top 1 or 2 players then the answer is yes, especially if the placement is done because of the lower skill level of the rest of the team.  There's a good chance you are going to see those 1 or 2 players be able to dominate most games because of the gap in skill level.  Keep in mind that the opposite could be true as well if the team is placed into a higher division and the lower skilled players are forced to "play up" to that level, then you could be seeing some scores that are not competitive as well. 

It is often a no win situation with organizations that draw from a smaller population pool when it comes to placements.

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34 minutes ago, Ihearthockey said:

Peewee teams at A Major Black, AA and AAA do not just roll lines when it comes to Penalty Kill and Power Play.

AAA and independent teams - well it's no surprise.  The coach is chasing ratings and career goals downstream. 

AA and below - Please share which orgs do this?  

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@Snap Shot Agree 100%, except for one word. Population! Sometimes it’s because of the population, sometimes it’s Popularity.  Let’s pick the Renegades and the Vipers.  Population, similar. They both fight for some of the same people. However, the Renegades are double (or more) the size of the Vipers.  Yes, the Vipers have a few Viper Stars teams.  But, even some of those teams have a wide skill range.

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