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Moon vs. Plum Varsity


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9 hours ago, HSFBLJ said:

The dad made a mistake and didn't do anythig once he was on the ice.  He obviously came to his senses pretty quickly.  Maybe he was going to get his kid and pull him off the ice.  Maybe he was/is a parent who initially had good thoughts.  Who knows but he should not have been out there.  Moon Hockey should address this if he was from Moon.  Plum should address it if he was Plum.  The rink should stay out of it.

That was an idiotic move by the dad, and the rink certainly has every right to take action, but likely the only action taken will be by the organization. The organization certainly should take action. Spectators entering the ice is both dangerous and explicitly prohibited by PIHL rules. Honestly what I worry about the most from that sort of behavior is escalation of the situation, such as other parents responding to it.

For me, the behavior of the parents who stayed in the stands was largely idiotic, too. Hard to see how they thought that yelling at opposing players leaving the ice was appropriate. As miked pointed out earlier in this thread, all of those parents are clearly audible on Livebarn, in their own voices, and you can see many of their faces. Shameful and stupid behavior is being recorded nowadays, folks. Almost all of the rinks have Livebarn. I'd keep that in mind.

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i appreciate trying to give people the benefit of the doubt and all, but super dad went on the ice and slowly walked past the Plum stands with his middle finger prominently displayed for all to see. Including the little kids. there were no good intentions.

from the perspective of the rink, as an owner or manager, i would ban him for life. that is far to much of an insurance liability. if he slipped and fell he would have a law suit and even though common sense should prevail and the case get kicked out, his lawyer would take the approach of many respondents on this board and blame the refs and coaches and security and say he was trying to help the poor kids who were being let down by the system. end result, he would be rich and Baierl would be closed. just look at the sad ending of the BBT. 

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Anybody get the newsletter that the PIHL sends out each week?

Per the PIHL By-Laws, there is no Board of Governors meeting in December.  However, the PIHL President has called a mandatory meeting for all association presidents on Wednesday, December 11, 2019, starting at 7:00 PM. 

The sole focus of this meeting will be to review and address the alarming number of behavioral issues happening in conjunction with PIHL games, specifically the conduct of parents and spectators.  The PIHL will be implementing new measures in response to these concerns, which will be formally presented at next week’s meeting.  There will then be an open forum to collectively discuss any actions that can be taken by the individual organizations to further prevent these issues from negatively affecting our games and our players.

 

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People won't be happy until they are completely banned from entering the stands. Livebarn is making that possible....drop kids off and make everyone go home. Our kids will be better off. Parents are a huge part of why I really like watching at home.

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On 12/4/2019 at 4:31 PM, Scooby Doo said:

Regarding the cross-post of Norwin VS. Sewickley 17-0 debacle.

Over many years in this sport, I've seen scores get rolled up a few times, but never to that extent.  I can't recall one time where the coach of one of our teams (up big), didn't go to "no shots" or similar  in the third period to get out of the game.  That is in both PIHL and PAHL games, boys and girls games both.

On the other hand I have been part of games in which we were down something like 5-0 or 6-0, or 8-1 in the third and the other team kept trying to score right up to the buzzer.

The last time this happened (around 2015) it caused a brawl at the end of the game (for 13 year olds).  That game has previously been discussed on these forums.  Read that thread here

I have a very low regard for any coach (our team or otherwise) who when their team is up big, allows their team to try and score right up to the buzzer.  The only exception to that for me, is if we're in some sort of a tourney where goal difference is going to be the deciding factor for the team trying to keep scoring.

In general I think it's poor sportsmanship.

Regarding the posts about the Norwin-Sewickley Academy game:

It’s very unfortunate when there is a lopsided game. It doesn’t benefit either team. But please don’t believe that this win by Norwin was the biggest lopsided game ever. Though it’s interesting to know that if this was a tournament game where goal differential mattered then this wouldn’t be an issue. Gotta love double standards.  

So by the reasoning pointed out so far, along with Norwin, the coaches of Meadville (a 17-0 win) Fox Chapel (17-2 win) TJ who’s had a few blowouts and others - all have no class and are poor sports??? I’m not saying anything about these coaches or teams, just pointing out that Norwin is not alone being in the uncomfortable position of dominating a game  

Its so easy for people to point the finger and call names. Look at the box scores. SA had 12 shots. Norwin had 58. Norwin could have had a lot more shots and more goals but they did draw back. 3 JV Call ups had considerable ice time. Top lines were rested and broken up. 

There was little to no cheering after the 5th goal except a little chatter for a player who had the opportunity to score his first goal of the season. 

The SA goalie made some great saves and played a heck of a game but it’s ignorant to think that Norwin played that game to run up the score.  

Could the coach have done more? Yes. He could have told two lines to go to the locker room or the snack bar after the first period. He could have told 5 of his skaters to go to the SA bench and play for them.  Is this a hallmark movie or a hockey game?  He could have played 5 on 3, but would probably still been criticized and called arrogant. And if passing the puck 15 times before a shot or playing with less players didn’t make a difference - way to bring the embattled opponent down even more. 

If a team shows up with 8 skaters - and if you look at their season they’ve played a few games with less than 2 full lines - I only hope they can get through this season and either co-op with another school or recruit or do something to put together a competitive team. It’s not comfortable to watch, win, or lose a lopsided game. Norwin parents and the coaches were not elated about that win. We felt sorry for the opponent, we hoped they had more scoring opportunities, and we hope that they are more competitive in their next matchup.  

But the structure that exists of - no schedule changes or you will be fined - and the pressure that is placed on teams to show up when they are not prepared to compete are major problems. And how about the running clock? How about after 2 periods - just end the game so this isn’t an issue. Its not fun to watch a WPIAL football blowout either and they are way more common. If team is winning by more than 10 goals after 2, cut the ice and call it quits and go home early. 

I hope the creepers, bullies, complainers, name callers, critics and all the decent people on this site can remember most games are good matchups. A few are ridiculously lopsided. What goal differential is acceptable and what goal differential is crossing the line? That’s a rhetorical question. 

Lastly, and the main reason for my post is that the character of any coach or team should NOT be labeled by the score of one game. Shame on anyone that feels they have the right to make that kind of judgement in a public forum.  

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4 hours ago, RedRidingHood said:

Regarding the posts about the Norwin-Sewickley Academy game:

It’s very unfortunate when there is a lopsided game. It doesn’t benefit either team. But please don’t believe that this win by Norwin was the biggest lopsided game ever. Though it’s interesting to know that if this was a tournament game where goal differential mattered then this wouldn’t be an issue. Gotta love double standards.  

So by the reasoning pointed out so far, along with Norwin, the coaches of Meadville (a 17-0 win) Fox Chapel (17-2 win) TJ who’s had a few blowouts and others - all have no class and are poor sports??? I’m not saying anything about these coaches or teams, just pointing out that Norwin is not alone being in the uncomfortable position of dominating a game  

Its so easy for people to point the finger and call names. Look at the box scores. SA had 12 shots. Norwin had 58. Norwin could have had a lot more shots and more goals but they did draw back. 3 JV Call ups had considerable ice time. Top lines were rested and broken up. 

There was little to no cheering after the 5th goal except a little chatter for a player who had the opportunity to score his first goal of the season. 

The SA goalie made some great saves and played a heck of a game but it’s ignorant to think that Norwin played that game to run up the score.  

Could the coach have done more? Yes. He could have told two lines to go to the locker room or the snack bar after the first period. He could have told 5 of his skaters to go to the SA bench and play for them.  Is this a hallmark movie or a hockey game?  He could have played 5 on 3, but would probably still been criticized and called arrogant. And if passing the puck 15 times before a shot or playing with less players didn’t make a difference - way to bring the embattled opponent down even more. 

If a team shows up with 8 skaters - and if you look at their season they’ve played a few games with less than 2 full lines - I only hope they can get through this season and either co-op with another school or recruit or do something to put together a competitive team. It’s not comfortable to watch, win, or lose a lopsided game. Norwin parents and the coaches were not elated about that win. We felt sorry for the opponent, we hoped they had more scoring opportunities, and we hope that they are more competitive in their next matchup.  

But the structure that exists of - no schedule changes or you will be fined - and the pressure that is placed on teams to show up when they are not prepared to compete are major problems. And how about the running clock? How about after 2 periods - just end the game so this isn’t an issue. Its not fun to watch a WPIAL football blowout either and they are way more common. If team is winning by more than 10 goals after 2, cut the ice and call it quits and go home early. 

I hope the creepers, bullies, complainers, name callers, critics and all the decent people on this site can remember most games are good matchups. A few are ridiculously lopsided. What goal differential is acceptable and what goal differential is crossing the line? That’s a rhetorical question. 

Lastly, and the main reason for my post is that the character of any coach or team should NOT be labeled by the score of one game. Shame on anyone that feels they have the right to make that kind of judgement in a public forum.  

Look at the box score for the Norwin-Sewickley Academy game. The score was 12-0 at the end of 2 periods. In the third period, the 3 leading scorers for Norwin all had goals and Norwin outshot them 16-1 in the third period.

Now look at the box score for the TJ-Sewickley Academy game. The score was 11-0 at the end of 2 periods. There was no scoring in the third period and Sewickley Academy actually outshot TJ 11-4 that period.

One team had its top players scoring in the third period of a blowout while the other team sat its top players and let its 3rd/4th line guys play the final period.

A big difference.

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Thread about Plum vs Moon player fights and parents being asshats in stands morphs into crybaby’s crying about two totally different teams playing a blowout game.  At least there wasn’t a bunch of asshat parents in the stands at the blowout game.  It’s Hockey! ❄️❄️❄️‘S

This site makes people dumber by the day.

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12 hours ago, Saucey said:

People won't be happy until they are completely banned from entering the stands. Livebarn is making that possible....drop kids off and make everyone go home. Our kids will be better off. Parents are a huge part of why I really like watching at home.

Pay $$$$ for your kid to play hockey, but can’t watch them play in person.  How about use common sense, shut your F’ing mouth, watch the game and leave happy that your kid enjoyed playing the game and that you were lucky enough to be watching them play a game that they love to play.  You like watching at home? ? On crap ass LiveBarn or is NHL TV covering your kids games?  Have at it though!

PIHL and the individual clubs have the right to weed out the bad apples.  One warning, then suspension from 3 games, then suspension for season.  Not hard!  Depending on the severity of the first offense, skip the warning!  I’d give a 3 game suspension to at least 6-8 parents from the Plum/Moon stands right off the bat.

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7 hours ago, PuckHead7 said:

Pay $$$$ for your kid to play hockey, but can’t watch them play in person.  How about use common sense, shut your F’ing mouth, watch the game and leave happy that your kid enjoyed playing the game and that you were lucky enough to be watching them play a game that they love to play.  You like watching at home? ? On crap ass LiveBarn or is NHL TV covering your kids games?  Have at it though!

PIHL and the individual clubs have the right to weed out the bad apples.  One warning, then suspension from 3 games, then suspension for season.  Not hard!  Depending on the severity of the first offense, skip the warning!  I’d give a 3 game suspension to at least 6-8 parents from the Plum/Moon stands right off the bat.

Whoah. Take it easy big guy. Sheesh. Didn't realize I attacked anyone.

I just think people suck these days, and it may very well get to the point where they all get booted from rinks. Can't keep refs, coaches are getting harder to come by....and it is parents who are the biggest problem in any survey. They ruin my experience so frequently that yes, I'd rather sit at home and watch it on the crap Livebarn. And it is crap. I love hockey, I love watching my kids....it is so bad to me, the way people behave, that I stay home a lot.

What you say I completely agree with. However, people don't feel the need to control themselves anymore. If I tell an out of control parent in the stands to be quiet, I am told to shut up, they have the right to say what ever they want... even where it is clear they are out of line. Everyone is entitled and has rights. So, I avoid a lot. I'm tired of it. I think no matter what PIHL does, parents are going to continue to suck. Because I see the same behaviors outside of the rink, too.

I've lost faith in people. Or I am just really getting old.

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Sorry, didn’t mean to come across that way towards you.

The system is easy to institute.  Every rink and club have zero tolerance policies.  Problem is, they don’t uphold them.

I'm totally with you about people though.  I don’t sit in the stands.  Nor do I stand at the top of the bleachers with the crazy’s.  I’m the guy that says nothing and watches the game from the end glass by myself.

Edited by PuckHead7
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On 12/6/2019 at 11:52 PM, RedRidingHood said:


I hope the creepers, bullies, complainers, name callers, critics and all the decent people on this site can remember most games are good matchups. A few are ridiculously lopsided. What goal differential is acceptable and what goal differential is crossing the line? That’s a rhetorical question. 

Lastly, and the main reason for my post is that the character of any coach or team should NOT be labeled by the score of one game. Shame on anyone that feels they have the right to make that kind of judgement in a public forum.  

Hey @RedRidingHood, how nice you jump on here and make your first post and attempt to defend teams for running up the score. 

I will question the character of any coach or team who runs up the score, period.  That is my first amendment right, in case you didn't realize it.

I gave one VERY SPECIFIC exception to running up the score.

Here is my exception in more detail:

Say you're team is in at tourney and the tie breaker for you to make the playoffs is coming down to goal differential.  And you know you need a +4 in this game to win.  So here we are in the 3rd period and you're team is up 3-0.  I would have no problem with the final score being 6-0, or even 8-0. But that's about where my exception would end.

And mostly what I am talking about is integrity and GOOD SPORTSMANSHIP.

Good sportsmanship, otherwise known as the "unwritten rules of the game", which apparently you don't have a clue about.

It's also about trying to minimize bad blood, brawls and parent fights due to the coach rolling up the score.

You on the other hand want to defend teams who roll up 17-0, 17-1 scores and their top players are still scoring in the 3rd period.  You are free to do that but I have no idea why you'd waste your time coming on here to defend such a ridiculous stance.

I'm glad my kids played hockey for coaches with integrity and class, and never rolled up the score - when some of their teams certainly could have.  We're just glad the game ended safely and we got the win.

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4 hours ago, Mysonisagoalie said:

Some interesting reading on the PIHL website. Did not realize things had gotten this bad.

The PIHL has compiled a "December 2019 Disciplinary Report" for distribution.  That report can be found on the PIHL website under PIHL > Initiatives > Sportsmanship.

Wow. That report reads like every game is played at Wells-Fargo Arena. 

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I almost think that it’s time for either county sheriffs or county police or constables at the very least to be sent to PAHL and MHT/HT tournament games. Parental behavior from what I’ve seen in my kids’ games has been abhorrent at times and there’s no recourse for parents. Fights, arguments, I think a guy hit a woman once, that’s why I stand in the corner or watch in lobbies if I can. No need. ADM games can sometimes stoke the passion of parents. Not to hijack the thread but ADM brings out the worst a lot because fans are constantly shifting to the three sections of the rink and intermingle. Mites fall a LOT. I wonder if any 8u’s have ever received a match?

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That report is fascinating. It's incredible to me that there were so many issues with parents confronting officials directly, including, of all things, entering the referee locker room. What kind of idiotic behavior is that?

Honestly, it's amazing to me that we can even find officials to schedule, given the way they are constantly berated. It's been my experience that, in the vast majority of situations where parents complain about calls either made or not made, I agreed with the officials.

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" I wonder if any 8u’s have ever received a match?"

yes, i've seen and know a couple. and to put it into perspective what it takes, when my son was like 6 or 7 he got a kid in a head lock and took him down like he was roping a calf. they made him sit the rest of the period then he was back in.

8u's get a lot of leeway, until it comes to stick work. 

where we did our ADM with my youngest they would split the kids up in practice, so you would meet the parents on the other teams while the kids were working together. I made lots of friends with "opposing" parents and would stand with them when our kids played against each other. last weekend i ran into one of those families. our kids played against each other for 3 years of ADM, never teammates, but we became friends.

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1 hour ago, Lifelongbender said:

That report is fascinating. It's incredible to me that there were so many issues with parents confronting officials directly, including, of all things, entering the referee locker room. What kind of idiotic behavior is that?

Honestly, it's amazing to me that we can even find officials to schedule, given the way they are constantly berated. It's been my experience that, in the vast majority of situations where parents complain about calls either made or not made, I agreed with the officials.

I agree with you about being able to find officials. My son is now finished with his playing career and has become a referee. He enjoys it so far but I wonder if/when he will have enough of the parents and coaches and decide stop working games.

I found this statistic later on in the report:

  1. Over half of the officials who skated PIHL Varsity playoff games in 2016 were no longer skating PIHL games by the 2019 playoffs.
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LIST OF MAJOR INCIDENTS THIS SEASON 2019-2020
 
1. A Greensburg Salem parent threw a bottle of water from the top of the seating section at an Indiana player on the ice during a Varsity game. a. The incident was caught on video, and when presented to the Greensburg Salem association, they said that their parents had already told them that the bottle of water was thrown… by the opposing student section. 
 
2. A Moon parent went on the ice during a post-game altercation in a Varsity game between Moon and Plum.  This parent gave the middle finger to the opposing spectators, argued with the rink manager about being ejected from the building, then tried to avoid the security guard by returning to the far end of the seating section.  The same parent gave a lengthy list of excuses in a subsequent email about why his behavior was justified. a. The Plum parents from the same Varsity game between Moon and Plum screamed at the Moon players as they exited the ice surface, then yelled at a Moon coach because they were upset by some of the players giving them the middle finger. b. An Avonworth parent who witnessed the altercation in the Moon-Plum game sent an email to the PIHL to state his belief that the referees and security guard “lost control” during the altercation and that the referees should be reprimanded.  There were only 2 referees on the ice – one of whom was bleeding from the mouth because he was hit in the face by a stick – and at least 16 players on the ice.  The security guard was positioned at the player runway to the locker room, where he was supposed to be. 
 
3. A Neshannock parent confronted a referee in the parking lot after a Varsity game, and the parent’s son allegedly suggested that he was going to bring his gun to future games. a. A police incident had to be filed for this matter. 
 
4. Peters Township parents stood in a manner that surrounded a broadcast crew from North Allegheny during a Varsity game, and their yelling throughout the game disrupted the broadcast crew on multiple occasions. a. A league official tried to prevent those parents from using the locker room hallway to exit the seating area after the game since they were clearly angry and disobedient and should not have been allowed near players.  Three of the parents were uncooperative and attempted to push their way by, which would have put them among players of the opposing team. 


5. A Cathedral Prep parent blocked the referees from exiting the ice surface, demanding that they answer questions for her because she is a “SafeSport rep.”  She began berating the officials and standing in their way of getting to their locker room over an incident in the game where a Cathedral Prep player was penalized for shooting the puck after a goal and nearly hitting one of the referees in the face. 
 
6. A Wilmington parent entered the official’s locker room after a Middle School game to complain to the officials about how he felt the game was called. 
 
7. A photographer overheard a conversation between parents of opposing teams at a game between Wheeling Park and Wheeling Catholic.  One parent told the other parent that he was going to punch his team’s head coach in the face because his kid was not getting enough playing time, adding that the worst thing he felt that he would get for doing that is a fine. 
 
8. A Gateway Middle School coach loudly told a player on his bench that he will “knock you the f*** out” and then hit the kid on the helmet.  The coach then told a PIHL Game Coordinator that he can do whatever he wants because it’s his kid. 
 
9. Norwin scored 5 goals in the third period of a game in which they were already winning 12-0 through two periods, out-shooting the opponent 16-1 in that third period.  The top scorers for Norwin were involved in most of the third period goals.  The final score was 17-0 in a game in which the opponent only had 8 skaters and no wins on the season. a. Several of the goals scored in the third period included celebrations by Norwin players. b. The Norwin coaching staff attempted to defend these actions on two different phone calls with the Commissioner’s Office. 
 

10. The entire Upper Saint Clair student section moved to the Mt Lebanon seating section in the second period of a Varsity game at Ice Castle.  When the security guard asked an Upper Saint Clair parent if the students who were sitting in the other section were from USC, the parent said, “Yeah, isn’t that funny?”   

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Wow. Thanks for sharing that report.  I am going to go play the lottery since my prediction that parents will not be permitted to watch is now within the refs hands. Section b under security guards allows them to remove a whole section of spectators, regardless of whether you did anything or not.

I saw this happen at a recent tournament in New York, so I bet it isn't a new idea. A 14 year old ref made a whole section leave and he wouldn't drop the puck till they left. There were two dads complaining about calls in that section...I think one from each team.  A parent from the NY team told me that all youth sports were cracking down in the area after a fight at a high School basketball game that resulted in numerous injuries. That young ref wasn't messing around. He called a pretty good game, too.

Removing parents might be effective. The majority of parents who don't behave badly might speak up against the ones that do, not wanting to get kicked out, or urge their organization to prevent that person from coming. Policing from within.

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1 hour ago, Paul Baxter said:


 
9. Norwin scored 5 goals in the third period of a game in which they were already winning 12-0 through two periods, out-shooting the opponent 16-1 in that third period.  The top scorers for Norwin were involved in most of the third period goals.  The final score was 17-0 in a game in which the opponent only had 8 skaters and no wins on the season. a. Several of the goals scored in the third period included celebrations by Norwin players. b. The Norwin coaching staff attempted to defend these actions on two different phone calls with the Commissioner’s Office. 
 

Any comment @RedRidingHood ?  

 

{insert sound of crickets here}

 

Edited by Scooby Doo
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Let me first say that I’m completely mind boggled with the score outcome of the Norwin game.  Personally, if I was the coach, I would have done everything in my power to make it a respectable win.  Good sportsmanship being the key.

That said, this list is a PIHL Disciplinary report of MAJOR INCIDENTS . All other points listed are serious issues.  #9 is not!  Beating another team by 17 only makes the coaches look like DB’s, the school district look bad and the players look bad.  #9 should not be on the list.  Fights, ref confrontations, coaches, parents and/or players being idiots, rowdy people in the stands etc, should be on the list.

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2 hours ago, PuckHead7 said:

Let me first say that I’m completely mind boggled with the score outcome of the Norwin game.  Personally, if I was the coach, I would have done everything in my power to make it a respectable win.  Good sportsmanship being the key.

That said, this list is a PIHL Disciplinary report of MAJOR INCIDENTS . All other points listed are serious issues.  #9 is not!  Beating another team by 17 only makes the coaches look like DB’s, the school district look bad and the players look bad.  #9 should not be on the list.  Fights, ref confrontations, coaches, parents and/or players being idiots, rowdy people in the stands etc, should be on the list.

Bullshit - 17-0 means the coaches and the players scoring repeatedly are displaying unsportsmanlike conduct. To keep putting the top line out there only to score yet again is ridiculous.  There is no justification for it .  Here’s what you do - you sit your first line like you typically do your 4th line and play the hell out of the kids who don’t get a lot of ice time.  

We’ve all seen games that are completely mismatched but usually, there is a shift in cheering, scoring and celebrating.  It doesn’t seem that happened in this game.  Interestingly enough, the Trib named the player(s) of the week based on this game.  

https://tribhssn.triblive.com/pihl-players-of-the-week-dec-8-2019/?platform=hootsuite

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2 hours ago, Puckthat said:

Bullshit - 17-0 means the coaches and the players scoring repeatedly are displaying unsportsmanlike conduct. To keep putting the top line out there only to score yet again is ridiculous.  There is no justification for it .  Here’s what you do - you sit your first line like you typically do your 4th line and play the hell out of the kids who don’t get a lot of ice time.  

We’ve all seen games that are completely mismatched but usually, there is a shift in cheering, scoring and celebrating.  It doesn’t seem that happened in this game.  Interestingly enough, the Trib named the player(s) of the week based on this game.  

https://tribhssn.triblive.com/pihl-players-of-the-week-dec-8-2019/?platform=hootsuite

Bullshit on you!  You just agreed with my entire first paragraph.  Still doesn’t constitute being on a disciplinary report of major incidents.  Nothing happen!  No threats were made.   No players fought.  Didn’t hear of any parents fighting, swearing or yelling at the coaches.  There were 2 PIM in the entire game.  My guess, the Norwin parent were probably embarrassed by the actions of their own kids and coaches.  Again, running up the score in plain stupid.  Whining about it is stupid also.

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