The Extra "A"

[RegDunlop7]

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Edited March 15, 2023 by RegDunlop7

[garytheconquer]

I agree with everything you said, guess what the new extra A is ? Tier 3 junior hockey! The usphl has 65 teams now! Look at the roster of some of these teams it’s a complete joke. 

[Jack Handey]

You have valid points and I largely agree, but some of the teams you call out are untouchable in the local scene.   Perhaps they are the Allegheny 93s of their day.  

 

[RegDunlop7]

39 minutes ago, Jack Handey said:

You have valid points and I largely agree, but some of the teams you call out are untouchable in the local scene.   Perhaps they are the Allegheny 93s of their day.  

 

Which teams?

[RegDunlop7]

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Edited March 15, 2023 by RegDunlop7

[Ankletape]

7 minutes ago, RegDunlop7 said:

Not a big fan, just remember following them back then -- but I believe they played around 40-50 games and traveled to places like Ontario, Chicago, and DC in addition to the 20-game PAHL schedule.

 

The point I was trying to make was that the faux-AAA teams would've been exposed if they played games against Allegheny, Mid-State, etc.

 

I completely agree with this. However, I think if you get rid of the faux-AAA teams like Icemen, SHAHA, and Mt. Lebo, it will help organizations like Allegheny compete for a high rank every year.

Lebo is not a faux they are the best U15 team around here besides pens 

[RegDunlop7]

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Edited March 15, 2023 by RegDunlop7

[Jack Handey]

1 hour ago, RegDunlop7 said:

Which teams?

Some examples as of late:

Icemen 2002
-started in PAHL as Butler Valley and North Pittsburgh
-switched to independent AA for 2nd year peewee, finished in top 10 in Tier II for 3 straight years.
-went AAA at 15u.

Vengeance 2004
- started in PAHL as Steel City Ice Renegades
-won PAHL 12u AA playoffs as first year peewees
-switched to independent AA for 2nd year peewee
-went AAA for bantam.  

Mt Lebanon 2004
- started in PAHL
- 20-0-0 in PAHL 2nd year peewee
- stayed in PAHL and went 20-0-0 again in PAHL 2nd year bantam.  Outscored opponents 7-1.
- went AAA at 15u.

Predators 2005
- formed as independent AA team for 2nd year peewee; ranked 3rd in tier II.
-went AAA for bantam.

SHAHA 2006 - on the same path as Preds 05.

 

 

[Jack Handey]

3 minutes ago, RegDunlop7 said:

none of the Pittsburgh AAA teams are legit besides the Pens Elite (and Esmark at 18U and 16U). So being the "best besides the Pens" doesn't mean much.

Mt Lebo beating everyone 7 to 1 isn't good for PAHL AA, and isn't good for Mt. Lebo's kids.  

[RegDunlop7]

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Edited March 15, 2023 by RegDunlop7

[RegDunlop7]

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Edited March 15, 2023 by RegDunlop7

[Tacks05]

The Vengeance younger teams are competitive in the AAA forum. I think many would agree they are a viable option and that’s a good thing for hockey in Pittsburgh. 
 

OP’s post makes his agenda pretty clear, I just hope he’s getting paid for his online  lobbying. 
 

 

Edited January 18, 2020 by Tacks05

[garytheconquer]

16 minutes ago, Tacks05 said:

The Vengeance younger teams are competitive in the AAA forum. I think many would agree they are a viable option and that’s a good thing for hockey in Pittsburgh. 
 

OP’s post makes his agenda pretty clear, I just hope he’s getting paid for his online  lobbying. 
 

 

At that squirt age AAA hockey is not needed and causes burn out. It burned one of mine out by the time he was 14. I didn’t take the advice from some parents that had been through it, looking back I would have waited until pee wee major to put my kids in AAA. as for the vengeance youth teams, they had some success at the 04 birth year with the old steel city ice renegades team but they all broke up. Some went to Lebo, others to esmark, some back to Pahl others stopped playing (burn out) Last season the vengeance 18U team was almost dead last in the rankings, the 16U team didn’t fair much better, it doesn’t look like they had 15U.  Curious why they have chosen to only field tier 1 at the really young ages now. Maybe because that’s when parents are new and really gullible. 

[garytheconquer]

9 minutes ago, The King said:

Just a couple issues here-

If one player burns out by 14 (yours by your own admission), that automatically assumes all kids burn out? And is that the sports fault? I think it’s entirely possible that the individual kid may not be cut out for it. Or (my personal belief) the parents had a big part in the player rejecting the competition? I get why someone would find it easier to blame the sport, organizations, coaches for their child falling behind or failing. It’s difficult to admit as a parent you might have something to do with creating adversity for your kid. 
Anyway, from what I gather, @Tacks05 was correct that the youth teams at the Vengeance are competing well. I do believe he has a point about the original poster having an agenda but that’s something for @RegDunlop7 to clarify.  So I’m not sure why it’s an issue for these kids and families. Seems to be working out well for them.  As far as The comment “curious why they have chosen to field Tier 1 at the younger ages only”, I’m sure your curiosity is fueled by a lack of knowledge on the process at their organization. Probably should learn more before casting judgement but as always, just my opinion. 

Hey buddy. Reading comprehension. It’s your friend. I blamed the burn out for one of my kids on myself. I let him play AAA since he was a squirt. He got burned out. I truly believe if he just played AA in those years It might not have happened. Traveling every other weekend across the Midwest & east Coast for years burned him out. He never got to ha g out with friends much, he never got to goto the middle school dances, many things missed.

Looking at some of your previous posts, you really seem to support the vengeance but your kids never played in Pittsburgh ??????????

[garytheconquer]

51 minutes ago, The King said:

Ok good we agree on the parents being the problem here. Didn’t you say on another thread that your son played 1 year for PPE? So was that 1 year in squirts? Or is this a conflicting narrative I’m noticing? Just curious. And if you’re clever use of emojis is meant to imply my kids played or play for the Pittsburgh Vengeance, I would recommend you take your advice and use reading comprehension while you’re going back and studying my posts. I’ve never once initiated conversation about that club but they have been called out on this board quite a bit. I have only sought to educate the folks that read these threads and debunk the bad info that folks out on here. I have no agendas other than that and  years and years of experience in the sport at all levels. 
Keep reading and you might get the help you need, buddy.

I admitted I should have held one of my kids away from aaa in squirts and peewee so I am a problem ? Buddy you are delusional. It’s clear you’re a cheerleader for the vengeance. In a different thread you stated esmark is “mid level” and wouldn’t consider their teams successful,  yet in this thread you state the vengeance youth teams are competing well. Let’s go look up the rankings. 

 

esmark 

18’s #20 out of 142 teams 

16’s #42 out of 150 teams 

15’s #76 out of 122 teams 

vengeance 

06 #65 out of 97 teams 

08 #19 out of 84 teams 

09/10 are not even worth looking at, kids are still learning to skate at this age, they barely understand the game. 
 

let’s take a look at last year when the vengeance fielded midget, thus comparing apples to apples. 
 

18s 

esmark #23 out of 139 teams 

vengeance #129 out of 139 teams I would call this team “faux” AAA. The predators are #64!

16s

esmark #48 out of 151 teams 

Vengeance #107 out of 151 teams

here is the kicker, the biggest “faux” program in wpa, pha icemen are ranked above the vengeance at #87. 
 

numbers don’t lie, try to spin it however you want. 

 

 

 

 

Edited January 18, 2020 by garytheconquer

[RegDunlop7]

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Edited March 15, 2023 by RegDunlop7

[Racchi’s Rug]

AAA Hornets 15 beat the Indy Fuel and Erie Jr. Otters handily at the MLHA Classic this weekend. They lost by a goal to Preds u15 AAA as well. The 14AAs beat the Houston Wild and I believe there are some of the same players rostered. I’d say check out the games in this classic. AAA and AA . Final day is tomorrow.

[RegDunlop7]

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Edited March 15, 2023 by RegDunlop7

[Ankletape]

10 hours ago, RegDunlop7 said:

Sounds like a good AA tournament with a few faux-AAA teams mixed in.

The reason why these teams exist is because local kids used to be able to  make pens.Now after U12 they cut all the locals and have kids from all over the place move to play 

[RegDunlop7]

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Edited March 15, 2023 by RegDunlop7

[g8586]

2 hours ago, Ankletape said:

The reason why these teams exist is because local kids used to be able to  make pens.Now after U12 they cut all the locals and have kids from all over the place move to play 

As does EVERY other top 10 team - or they wouldn’t be top 10.  The top teams at PE have more locals than most top teams. 

[dazedandconfused]

19 hours ago, Racchi’s Rug said:

AAA Hornets 15 beat the Indy Fuel and Erie Jr. Otters handily at the MLHA Classic this weekend. They lost by a goal to Preds u15 AAA as well. The 14AAs beat the Houston Wild and I believe there are some of the same players rostered. I’d say check out the games in this classic. AAA and AA . Final day is tomorrow.

The Indy Fuel and the Erie Otters? That's a couple of Juggernauts there. And the Houston Wild? Now there's a hockey hotbed.

The MLHA thing is just another 3-5 year "one-off" deals, or in this instance a two-off deal. Just like the Icemen was all about one person's kid, so too is this all about one person's two kids.

It will fade away and other than the PPE, Esmark and the Preds(somehow) will still be standing.

The Vengeance thing is an interesting case study. They abolished the low-level Midget teams (and yet still get crucified) but if the idea is to grow the youth teams into 14U/16U/18U that's a slippery slope to try to sustain teams for that many years. I guess only time will tell.

[Rinkshrink01]

I have been around Pgh hockey for most of my adult life... seen players make it and advance on and have success at the next levels... Sam Lafferty out of Mid state is the latest example that we can produce talent locally.  How many more Sam Lafferty's are out there that never make it because Pgh hockey is broken and people don't want to send their kids away when they are 15&16.  Here is what is wrong with Pgh hockey and how to fix it... first a couple of facts:

1. Pens Elite has no interest in promoting local players only paying for their practice facility and having a place for pens and friends to play. So they should be totally left out of any discussion moving forward.  In two years there will be basically no local players on their Elite team rosters. The Excel academy prep team is happening and nothing will stop it and many who post on this forum will fall for the sales pitch to help get it off the ground. 

2. Essmark is the only other AAA org that has a proven track record of advancing players on a consistent basis. The 16u / 18u teams remain the best AAA option for local players.

3. Parents and players want this level of hockey locally and we have the players to support it.  Which is clearly evident with the number of independent teams floating around here and in spurts they compete with top side teams but proven unable to do it consistently.  

4. Local hockey administration is Joke and is holding onto the past structure either because they just simply don't know or are reluctant to change because they fear for their job and or income stream. 

5. We have a shortage of ice locally to support the numbers of player playing and the structure needed. 

There is nothing wrong with players and parents seeking out a more competitive level of play and paying the money to play it if they so choose.  People want to play AAA hockey and travel to showcase tournaments in the US and Canada.  I am tiered of hearing how great Pgh AA hockey would be if these players just played PAHL.  Fact is this isn't going away and if it continues to evolve with no direction or structure the kids will be suffering and not having legitimate opportunities to advance to whatever level they want to advance to.  I would also argue that local hockey parents have little or no knowledge about how the structure of hockey works and how players advance.  Many of them still think D1 scholarships are available via the high school route (like football).  The kids all know the deal but man y of these parents revert to what they know and are delusional about their childs future. In my opinion here is the problem with Pgh hockey:

We have no outlet to give teams that want a Tier 1 roster a reasonable path to get it... and when they get it they are forming a schedule from scratch and  have trouble getting the right games.  So many of these teams are playing subpar schedules and the kids are bouncing from team to team as they keep getting disappointed by schedule, coaching, team selection... you name it and many of you have elaborated all these reasons in previous threads... no need to rehash here. 

It's time for PAHL / USA hockey to support AAA hockey at 15u and up levels for those teams that want to play at the level and end this independent nonsense.  Do split season and if a team is over their head move them back to AA and make the second half of the season competitive for the players. Maybe it includes teams in Ohio and southern NY.  If it is viable they may elect to play in it. Also, run the schedule like a tournament weekends so these teams can travel to tournaments and minimize the ice usage across the board.  Make these teams preform to keep their Tier 1 roster.  Have a committee of people who know something about hockey make these decisions either from playing or coaching experience, not a team of grandma's and hockey Dad's who have never played or stepped behind a bench above Pee Wee.  It will take a few years to get this model right but it is time for local hockey management to take their head out of the sand and recognize what is happening here.  I would bet if the Essmark parents had a viable option to play more locally and not travel to Minnesota as much they would explore it.  

When the Pens jumped in with their proposal a few years ago it was designed to enhance their position and we all are seeing the results of that. Local hockey and players will continue to suffer if no adults step up to fix it. 

[Saucey]

37 minutes ago, Rinkshrink01 said:

I have been around Pgh hockey for most of my adult life... seen players make it and advance on and have success at the next levels... Sam Lafferty out of Mid state is the latest example that we can produce talent locally.  How many more Sam Lafferty's are out there that never make it because Pgh hockey is broken and people don't want to send their kids away when they are 15&16.  Here is what is wrong with Pgh hockey and how to fix it... first a couple of facts:

1. Pens Elite has no interest in promoting local players only paying for their practice facility and having a place for pens and friends to play. So they should be totally left out of any discussion moving forward.  In two years there will be basically no local players on their Elite team rosters. The Excel academy prep team is happening and nothing will stop it and many who post on this forum will fall for the sales pitch to help get it off the ground. 

2. Essmark is the only other AAA org that has a proven track record of advancing players on a consistent basis. The 16u / 18u teams remain the best AAA option for local players.

3. Parents and players want this level of hockey locally and we have the players to support it.  Which is clearly evident with the number of independent teams floating around here and in spurts they compete with top side teams but proven unable to do it consistently.  

4. Local hockey administration is Joke and is holding onto the past structure either because they just simply don't know or are reluctant to change because they fear for their job and or income stream. 

5. We have a shortage of ice locally to support the numbers of player playing and the structure needed. 

There is nothing wrong with players and parents seeking out a more competitive level of play and paying the money to play it if they so choose.  People want to play AAA hockey and travel to showcase tournaments in the US and Canada.  I am tiered of hearing how great Pgh AA hockey would be if these players just played PAHL.  Fact is this isn't going away and if it continues to evolve with no direction or structure the kids will be suffering and not having legitimate opportunities to advance to whatever level they want to advance to.  I would also argue that local hockey parents have little or no knowledge about how the structure of hockey works and how players advance.  Many of them still think D1 scholarships are available via the high school route (like football).  The kids all know the deal but man y of these parents revert to what they know and are delusional about their childs future. In my opinion here is the problem with Pgh hockey:

We have no outlet to give teams that want a Tier 1 roster a reasonable path to get it... and when they get it they are forming a schedule from scratch and  have trouble getting the right games.  So many of these teams are playing subpar schedules and the kids are bouncing from team to team as they keep getting disappointed by schedule, coaching, team selection... you name it and many of you have elaborated all these reasons in previous threads... no need to rehash here. 

It's time for PAHL / USA hockey to support AAA hockey at 15u and up levels for those teams that want to play at the level and end this independent nonsense.  Do split season and if a team is over their head move them back to AA and make the second half of the season competitive for the players. Maybe it includes teams in Ohio and southern NY.  If it is viable they may elect to play in it. Also, run the schedule like a tournament weekends so these teams can travel to tournaments and minimize the ice usage across the board.  Make these teams preform to keep their Tier 1 roster.  Have a committee of people who know something about hockey make these decisions either from playing or coaching experience, not a team of grandma's and hockey Dad's who have never played or stepped behind a bench above Pee Wee.  It will take a few years to get this model right but it is time for local hockey management to take their head out of the sand and recognize what is happening here.  I would bet if the Essmark parents had a viable option to play more locally and not travel to Minnesota as much they would explore it.  

When the Pens jumped in with their proposal a few years ago it was designed to enhance their position and we all are seeing the results of that. Local hockey and players will continue to suffer if no adults step up to fix it. 

I agree that Excel as a requirement is going to lead to recruiting with fewer local players at Pens. Soon as that initiative was announced I thought that. Pens are a business. They have to compete with all the other AAA programs that get access to more talent. I really think they should stay out of the lower levels, let those kids develop in PAHL. Kids shouldn't be labeled elite that young, we all know they may not stay there, but frequently, they always think they are and become uncoachable players or exit the sport entirely.

Your ideas are interesting. I think the market is so fractured, with a few too many egos to get it going, it would be difficult to implement. And PAHL's goal is not to create AAA players...I would hate the focus to move from development of all kids to enjoy hockey to just focusing on the top. That is a legit criticism of some of the PAHL teams running these independent teams....no focus on any other level or development from the bottom up starting at a young age.

I would rather see the AAA initative come from USA hockey. And teams are doing this, some of them play PAHL games as a tournament. It ends up being too many games imo, the independent schedule and PAHL. 

Maybe broaden the scope of PAHL at the top tier to include some games with top teams from the surrounding states. I guess that would require PAHL involvement. Some hybrid, where individual teams aren't in charge of scheduling, but not as intensive with a lower number of games than I see some of the independent teams playing. The kids doing this are frequently toast by the end of the season.

I would rather do that then play these silly tournaments, where you hold your breathe to know if the competition will be good, no matter how much research you did.

[RegDunlop7]

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Edited March 15, 2023 by RegDunlop7