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I have no problem with Pens Elite Excel Prep team... but in few years it will be filled with non local players and unless you pay the freight you will not have any chance to be on the team.  Which is fine.  These decisions are up to individual families.  What's not up to individual families is the Structure of Pgh Hockey.  You can argue all  you want about AA this and AAA that.  Clearly there is need for structure and organization.  Saucey, that's the only reason you involve PAHL is for a governing body. 

With in our Radius we have teams in basically all the major leagues:

1 NHL, 1 AHL, 1 ECHL, 1 OHL, 2 D1 NCAA, 1 NCAA D3, 1 USHL, 1 NAHL, and countless ACHA teams.  Who all would like to get a better look at local talent.  The Pens have monopolized that piece currently with USHL fall classic tourney.  There are partnerships to be had with these other teams to create something for these kids to advance. 

Teams can't enter certain tournaments unless they have a Tier 1 roster and certain teams won't play them unless you have  a Tier 1 roster.  There is an answer here that will force these local "faux-AAA" orgs to compete to keep their charter or AAA status.  Our local product has outgrown the AA + tournament model you propose or more teams would just do that.  It's not a bad model and serves those kids well but not what the electorate wants.  Pens has no desire to advance local players anymore and Essmark is doing a good job scooping up local talent and moving them but there is more talent here.  I have heard the water down argument here too much, but yet these independent teams keep popping up and at times they are able to compete but it doesn't last cause they just simply don;t see the competition enough on a regular basis.  

USA hockey needs to step in and force things but they only care about coaching clinics and their $55 dollars for insurance. 

 

 

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I have read the Article and other like it and agree with you on many topics here.  My point is that good local players will continue to get left behind with no chance to advance.  You are correct Pens and Essmark rosters have local talent on them currently but as I stated earlier the Pens rosters are going to get filled up with imports in the not so distant future.  Essmark has a history of importing talent at 16u/18u to compete on the National stage.  Evidenced by the fact that a few of their imports have played in World Juniors and Under 18 tourneys.  Not sure what good them playing local high school hockey is but that Your point about the 05 Essmark team is spot on.  My point was how do we fix that?  and get these kids the proper development they need with in our current structure? left alone those types of teams will continue to be put out there and when you are on the wrong end of a beating like that only one thing happens.  One team learns to hate hockey!!!! Not what we are after here.   

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PPE picks up the local players who are good enough. It’s not that PPE doesn’t want Pittsburgh kids it’s that they already have for the most part the local elite players. The others usually end up on the faux teams and are getting nowhere on a low ranked team. first, those programs don’t provide the training or the coaching like PPE. and second the scouts aren’t flocking at tournaments with “AAA” teams ranked 68 and 95 playing each other.  RegDunlop7 is pretty much spot on. 

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20 minutes ago, Jack Handey said:

Reg what's your solution for the teams that destroy every other AA team but aren't PPE and Esmark?   

I’d like to know his thoughts also... Preds 18U AA Thomas.  76 goals for, 32 against, 15-2-0 in PAHL.  Lost two by scores of 2-1 and 1-0.

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9 minutes ago, RegDunlop7 said:

if competitive teams actually stayed at AA

that's not a solution within control of the team looking to make the jump.  Let's try again:   What is your advice to Mt Lebo 04 who went 20-0-0 and won every PAHL game 7-1 ?  Are you telling them to stay in PAHL ?

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It’s comical y’all are slamming PPE for not having local kids, take a look at a esmark roster who you guys are praising at midget. Esmark has kids from Excel, out of state and Russia. PPE plays all their lines unlike esmark. Esmark is there to win more than they are trying to move kids on, it’s how you continue to make money. 
 

If true that PPE is starting a 18U prep team. You folks are looking at it wrong. Esmark will not get more kids. I believe PPE is doing this to stop the kids from going to esmark at 16 & 18. PPE 18s have not been ranked high enough to get the at large bid for nationals the last few years, so when esmark beats them at the district tournament, it’s egg on the face of PPE. Do you think the powers up in cranberry like seeing that ? This PREP stuff is a way for PPE to re invent the black teams at the older ages, unlike the younger black teams the kids still playing at 16 & 18 are talented enough to play for PPE there just isn’t room.

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24 minutes ago, RegDunlop7 said:

They didn't win every game 7-1 haha so let's pump the brakes on that. But yes, Mt. Lebo, SHAHA, Icemen, Vengeance, and all of the faux-AAA teams should be in PAHL. Then you have a trickle-down effect where the AA, A, etc. leagues are actually competitive (like they used to be) and not top-heavy.

I agree with what you are saying but it’s the dumb parents paying to be on these “faux” teams. That will never change. 

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4 hours ago, RegDunlop7 said:

They didn't win every game 7-1 haha

Not at all - this is just an aggregated stat that concisely tells their story.   Factor in mid-am, PAHL playoffs, Silver Stick, preseason - they went 27-0-1 against PAHL AA teams.  Or just look at mid-am, 4-0-0, 38 GF, 0 GA.  Yes that's 4 straight shutouts in Mid Am playoffs. 

 

4 hours ago, RegDunlop7 said:

SHAHA, Icemen, Vengeance, and all of the faux-AAA teams should be in PAHL

All except Vengeance were in PAHL last year.  I think you have the cart before the horse in your argument.  Just a little bit anyway.   PAHL AA was not watered down by one missing team.  

I agree if they all came back to PAHL it would be great but that's pie in the sky.  The families of Mt Lebo 04 needed a place where their kids could compete and grow. 

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12 hours ago, The King said:

Well I think the belief that scouts are flocking anywhere is a flawed concept as well. I stated that there are some minimum requirements for any program proposing to be leaders in player development. At any level. Being placed in a junior program or on scholarship is not the only reason someone may seek increased competition or training. But the issue here is that we have a culture that says that “if you aren’t in agreement with me, you’re wrong and need to be forced to comply”. 

The only rink scouts are going to is upmc. It’s that simple. As good as esmark’s midget teams are, nobody is hanging out there to watch games. PPE 18U is ranked in the 60’s, that’s getting into the “faux” range. This season I caught the end of game that PPE 18U lost to the Columbus Jr Jackets. Both teams looked bad but with out even looking for them I counted 4 ushl scouts and 3 college scouts. they were easy to pick out, team jackets and clip boards. Nobody wants to hear it and it stinks to say it. PPE is the only place that your kid has a chance at any real advancement. They have a a strangle hold on the market because they have the most money along with a pro team logo. 

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7 hours ago, Danner27 said:

It’s comical y’all are slamming PPE for not having local kids, take a look at a esmark roster who you guys are praising at midget. Esmark has kids from Excel, out of state and Russia. PPE plays all their lines unlike esmark. Esmark is there to win more than they are trying to move kids on, it’s how you continue to make money. 
 

If true that PPE is starting a 18U prep team. You folks are looking at it wrong. Esmark will not get more kids. I believe PPE is doing this to stop the kids from going to esmark at 16 & 18. PPE 18s have not been ranked high enough to get the at large bid for nationals the last few years, so when esmark beats them at the district tournament, it’s egg on the face of PPE. Do you think the powers up in cranberry like seeing that ? This PREP stuff is a way for PPE to re invent the black teams at the older ages, unlike the younger black teams the kids still playing at 16 & 18 are talented enough to play for PPE there just isn’t room.

 

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3 hours ago, RegDunlop7 said:

If you take away outlier scores -- like Mon Valley (rarely fields good AA teams) and Mid-State (never in PAHL and haven't been good since Dave Weaver left) -- Mt. Lebo had mostly competitive games against other PAHL teams.

 

Icemen, Vengeance, and Preds AAA have never played in PAHL. The Mt. Lebo players "could compete and grow" with a strong 20-game PAHL schedule in addition to 20-30 tournament games of their choosing.

I just quickly looked and last year the 04 Lebo team played 65 games.  That is a lot more than a PAHL schedule.  They were also ranked over 2 points higher than the next closest PAHL team.  They had to go AAA.

I also think that the PPE black teams that exist up until Midgets do the most damage to AA.  If those 15-17 players were back in AA.  That is basically taking the bottom 2-3 kids off of every AA team.    

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5 hours ago, RegDunlop7 said:

Again, AA teams are free to play as many tournament/independent games as they want outside of their 20-game PAHL schedule. PAHL wouldn't be so top-heavy if faux-AAA teams like Mt. Lebo, SHAHA, Icemen, Vengeance, Preds AAA, etc. played at the AA level -- also, being a top-ranked AA team one year doesn't/shouldn't qualify that team to be considered AAA the next season (Mt. Lebo would've been #67 in the '04 Tier I rankings last year).

 

Agreed, the Pens Elite second teams shouldn't be considered Tier I and are a huge money grab for that organization.

"Agreed, the Pens Elite second teams shouldn't be considered Tier I and are a huge money grab for that organization."  True that.  That is why they don't label the the second team as PPE Black anymore, it's now by the head coaches name.

PPE - 2 ( or black ) teams are AA level hockey but their parents will tell you otherwise.  They have the stickers on their car, the schwag and pretty gear bags to prove it.  Last year numerous PAHL teams beat Black teams - how do you think those parents feel when they get beaten by a PAHL team that pays $5K - $9K less per season?  And why do you think they steer clear of putting PAHL teams on their schedules?  It's bad for business.

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Looks like Michigan solved the problem for us already.  When will PAHL take note of this?

IV. Youth Age & Division Classifications
A. Tier I Category and AAA Division Teams.
1. The Tier I catgeoryand AAA Division teams are the highest level of competitive hockey in Michigan. Teams in this category are
restricted to only those in approved Tier I organizations. The recognized Youth age classifications shall be the Youth 10, 11 &
12, and 13 which are designated as Travel Category AAA Division teams. The 14, 15 Only, 16 Only and 17 & 18 age
classifications teams shall be desginated asTier I Category and the Division will be AAA. The 14, 15 Only,16 Only and 17 & 18
age classifications are national bound classifications and the teams must meet all national bound eligiblity requirements.
Teams in the Youth 10, 11 & 12, & 13 age classifications are eligible for MAHA State playoffs and must meet all requirments to
be eligible for MAHA State playoffs.
2. Tier 1 teams are teams that may participate within a Tier 1 MAHA/USA Hockey sanctioned league that may involve
participation with similar teams from Michigan and from across the country. Teams in organizations not approved by the State
Playoff Committee that play more than 30% of their games against Tier I opponents shall be ineligible for District and States
Playoffs in any classification. Teams in organizations not approved by the State Playoff Committee may not advertise as Tier I,
AAA, elite, or similar designation for tryouts, to recruit, entice or in any way give the appearance of being a Tier I team.
3. Only teams from those organizations approved by the State Playoff Committee will be allowed to roster as Tier 1 or AAA teams
in Michigan.
4. All teams and players playing in this classification are restricted to a maximum number of games per season. (Rule III,A,e)
5. To qualify as a Tier I Organization the following criteria must be followed:
a. Not more than (10) Tier 1 organizations will be awarded on an annual basis for a period from September 1st to August
31st. An application must be sent to the State Playoff Committee Chairperson for consideration not later than November
1st of the year prior to the season’s start. The State Playoff Committee will determine the number of Tier I Organizations
for the next season: up to six in Districts 2, 3, 4 combined; up to one in District 5; up to two in District 6; and one in
Districts 7 and 8 combined. In addition to the above, the Tier I 18U team existing as of June 2019in District 7 is
grandfathered. Upon dissolution of this team, it shall not be replaced other than via the provisions of this rule. The State
Playoff Committee will make their decisions no later than the Annual Winter meeting of the preceding season. Each
organization is limited to one team at each age classification.
b. Each Tier I Organizations must have teams at the following recognized AAA levels: 12U (Pee Wee Minor and Major), 14U
(Bantam Minor and Major), 15 & 16 Only, (Midget Minor) and (Midget Major) 17 and 18. The 15 Only and 16 Only
categories are to include only those players who are in that birth year. Organizations wishing to apply without a full
complement of teams may do so, but must provide a 5-year plan that demonstrates a sustainable program working
towards having teams at all the recognized levels.
c. Tier I organizations are limited to ten (10) non-Michigan players per organization at the 12U (Pee Wee) age level through
16U Midget Minor age level (age 11–16) with no more than six (6) non-Michigan players on any one team. 18U (Midget
Major) (age 17-18) teams shall be allowed no more than 6 (six) non-Michigan players on any one team.
d. At the 10U (Squirt) age classification, teams may only form at the 10U (Squirt Major age 10) level only. Teams may have
a maximum of four (4) players playing up from below the age 10 age group. At the 10U Level, there are no out of state or
import players allowed.
e. At the 14U classification, no team may roster any player 12 years of age or under.
f. Tier I Organizations will have to reapply each year to maintain their Tier I status. Returning Organizations will have
preference, but will not be guaranteed a Tier I status each year.
6. Each MAHA Tier I Organization must play the other MAHA Tier I Organizations two (2) games per season. One (1) home, one
(1) away; excluding tournaments.
7. In the Tier 1 classifications, player movement will be allowed as follows:
a. Players can only move within their own organization.
b. 14U (Bantam) may not move up to the 15 Only classification. 15 Only may move up to 16 Only (Midget) classification and
16U may move up to the 18U (Midget) classification. Players using the player movement will be allowed to move up and
down for a maximum of eight (8) games per Regular season.
c. Players exercising this option must include these games in their total number of games count. Teams and players in this
classification are restricted to a maximum number of games per season. (Rule III,D). Players exceeding this limit will be
ineligible to participate in the MAHA State Playoffs.
d. Players moving up and down will not have a 72-hour waiting period, will not need to be released from one team and
added to the other team they are moving to.
e. Player movement will be allowed up to December 31 of the current playing season except player movement will be
allowed to fill spots of players that move up to a Junior team until the date established by USA Hockey each year.
f. For player movement tracking, an individual appointed by the State Playoff Committee will be assigned to the Tier 1
category. Teams will submit players moving up and down to this individual. This individual will track how many games an
individual player has moved up. Coaches who do not report player movement or exceed the maximum number of moves
will be subject to disciplinary actions and suspension of up to one year.
8. Each team in the Tier I category must signify their intention of entering the State Playoffs no later than November 1st to the
Chairman of the State Playoff Committee by completing the online registration at MAHA.org by November 1st. By registering
online, the team commits to participating in States and Nationals if the team is a National bound classification team.
9. Tryouts for Tier I and AAA Youth Teams
a. No Tier I team may recruit or solicit players, offer contracts, hold tryouts, conditioning skate, or any activity that could be
construed as a tryout/solicitation or recruitment or player evaluation until the specific date outlined below:
31
b.
i. All teams in National bound categories for the current season (not post season), shall not begin tryouts until 48 hours
after the completion of the National Tournament for their respective age classification.
ii. All Teams in Tier I (Non-National Bound) categories and all Tier II (A/AA) categories for the current season (not post
season) shall not begin POST SEASON (Spring) tryouts until after 4 pm on the Monday following the conclusion of
the final State Tournament games of All age brackets and categories.
iii. All teams in Tier II (A/AA) Non-National bound categories may begin tryouts on the 3rdMonday in May for all
REGULAR SEASON (Fall/Winter) teams.
iv. All Teams in the Tier I (Non-National Bound), may begin tryouts the first Monday in May for all regular season
(fall/winter).

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31 minutes ago, HSFBLJ said:

Looks like Michigan solved the problem for us already.  When will PAHL take note of this?

IV. Youth Age & Division Classifications
A. Tier I Category and AAA Division Teams.
1. The Tier I catgeoryand AAA Division teams are the highest level of competitive hockey in Michigan. Teams in this category are
restricted to only those in approved Tier I organizations. The recognized Youth age classifications shall be the Youth 10, 11 &
12, and 13 which are designated as Travel Category AAA Division teams. The 14, 15 Only, 16 Only and 17 & 18 age
classifications teams shall be desginated asTier I Category and the Division will be AAA. The 14, 15 Only,16 Only and 17 & 18
age classifications are national bound classifications and the teams must meet all national bound eligiblity requirements.
Teams in the Youth 10, 11 & 12, & 13 age classifications are eligible for MAHA State playoffs and must meet all requirments to
be eligible for MAHA State playoffs.
2. Tier 1 teams are teams that may participate within a Tier 1 MAHA/USA Hockey sanctioned league that may involve
participation with similar teams from Michigan and from across the country. Teams in organizations not approved by the State
Playoff Committee that play more than 30% of their games against Tier I opponents shall be ineligible for District and States
Playoffs in any classification. Teams in organizations not approved by the State Playoff Committee may not advertise as Tier I,
AAA, elite, or similar designation for tryouts, to recruit, entice or in any way give the appearance of being a Tier I team.
3. Only teams from those organizations approved by the State Playoff Committee will be allowed to roster as Tier 1 or AAA teams
in Michigan.
4. All teams and players playing in this classification are restricted to a maximum number of games per season. (Rule III,A,e)
5. To qualify as a Tier I Organization the following criteria must be followed:
a. Not more than (10) Tier 1 organizations will be awarded on an annual basis for a period from September 1st to August
31st. An application must be sent to the State Playoff Committee Chairperson for consideration not later than November
1st of the year prior to the season’s start. The State Playoff Committee will determine the number of Tier I Organizations
for the next season: up to six in Districts 2, 3, 4 combined; up to one in District 5; up to two in District 6; and one in
Districts 7 and 8 combined. In addition to the above, the Tier I 18U team existing as of June 2019in District 7 is
grandfathered. Upon dissolution of this team, it shall not be replaced other than via the provisions of this rule. The State
Playoff Committee will make their decisions no later than the Annual Winter meeting of the preceding season. Each
organization is limited to one team at each age classification.
b. Each Tier I Organizations must have teams at the following recognized AAA levels: 12U (Pee Wee Minor and Major), 14U
(Bantam Minor and Major), 15 & 16 Only, (Midget Minor) and (Midget Major) 17 and 18. The 15 Only and 16 Only
categories are to include only those players who are in that birth year. Organizations wishing to apply without a full
complement of teams may do so, but must provide a 5-year plan that demonstrates a sustainable program working
towards having teams at all the recognized levels.
c. Tier I organizations are limited to ten (10) non-Michigan players per organization at the 12U (Pee Wee) age level through
16U Midget Minor age level (age 11–16) with no more than six (6) non-Michigan players on any one team. 18U (Midget
Major) (age 17-18) teams shall be allowed no more than 6 (six) non-Michigan players on any one team.
d. At the 10U (Squirt) age classification, teams may only form at the 10U (Squirt Major age 10) level only. Teams may have
a maximum of four (4) players playing up from below the age 10 age group. At the 10U Level, there are no out of state or
import players allowed.
e. At the 14U classification, no team may roster any player 12 years of age or under.
f. Tier I Organizations will have to reapply each year to maintain their Tier I status. Returning Organizations will have
preference, but will not be guaranteed a Tier I status each year.
6. Each MAHA Tier I Organization must play the other MAHA Tier I Organizations two (2) games per season. One (1) home, one
(1) away; excluding tournaments.
7. In the Tier 1 classifications, player movement will be allowed as follows:
a. Players can only move within their own organization.
b. 14U (Bantam) may not move up to the 15 Only classification. 15 Only may move up to 16 Only (Midget) classification and
16U may move up to the 18U (Midget) classification. Players using the player movement will be allowed to move up and
down for a maximum of eight (8) games per Regular season.
c. Players exercising this option must include these games in their total number of games count. Teams and players in this
classification are restricted to a maximum number of games per season. (Rule III,D). Players exceeding this limit will be
ineligible to participate in the MAHA State Playoffs.
d. Players moving up and down will not have a 72-hour waiting period, will not need to be released from one team and
added to the other team they are moving to.
e. Player movement will be allowed up to December 31 of the current playing season except player movement will be
allowed to fill spots of players that move up to a Junior team until the date established by USA Hockey each year.
f. For player movement tracking, an individual appointed by the State Playoff Committee will be assigned to the Tier 1
category. Teams will submit players moving up and down to this individual. This individual will track how many games an
individual player has moved up. Coaches who do not report player movement or exceed the maximum number of moves
will be subject to disciplinary actions and suspension of up to one year.
8. Each team in the Tier I category must signify their intention of entering the State Playoffs no later than November 1st to the
Chairman of the State Playoff Committee by completing the online registration at MAHA.org by November 1st. By registering
online, the team commits to participating in States and Nationals if the team is a National bound classification team.
9. Tryouts for Tier I and AAA Youth Teams
a. No Tier I team may recruit or solicit players, offer contracts, hold tryouts, conditioning skate, or any activity that could be
construed as a tryout/solicitation or recruitment or player evaluation until the specific date outlined below:
31
b.
i. All teams in National bound categories for the current season (not post season), shall not begin tryouts until 48 hours
after the completion of the National Tournament for their respective age classification.
ii. All Teams in Tier I (Non-National Bound) categories and all Tier II (A/AA) categories for the current season (not post
season) shall not begin POST SEASON (Spring) tryouts until after 4 pm on the Monday following the conclusion of
the final State Tournament games of All age brackets and categories.
iii. All teams in Tier II (A/AA) Non-National bound categories may begin tryouts on the 3rdMonday in May for all
REGULAR SEASON (Fall/Winter) teams.
iv. All Teams in the Tier I (Non-National Bound), may begin tryouts the first Monday in May for all regular season
(fall/winter).

 

The Michigan way has its flaws too.  It requires an organization to field AAA teams at all age classifications even if the teams aren't worthy of being AAA.  For example, at U15 there are 3 teams ranked below Esmark.  And at the 06 level, Meijer 06 AAA is 0-24 and ranked last at 97.  They have scored 12 goals and given up 245.  By comparison, the faux AAA Shaha team is ranked 42. 

 

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