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The Costs of AAA Hockey


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44 minutes ago, Pucks11 said:

What are top teams though? 2%, 5% maybe 10% of the over 1,300 listed. 

No one is doubting that the Vengeance are the best local team but you can only play the games offered to you and the PPE have done that and proven themselves the best they could just like the Vengeance. They are 6 spots away from each other but you don't consider them AAA. 

Your mind is clearly made up and apparently you are the type that is never wrong.  This conversation is beyond exhausting, even other members of this site are tired of reading.....

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COVID makes this whole argument dumber than usual. With players not being able to play, being quarantined, being sick...all rankings/comparisons get a side eye from me this year. I've had that conversation with my kid, whose team has assumed victory over another based on looking at that website and then were surprised to get beat...truly, all bets are off this season. Plus, any teams crowing from an Alpha rink that has been known to continue to operate despite shut downs, particularly gets raised eyebrows. You get an edge just from playing when no one else could.

You don't need to toot your kid's horn anonymously on a message board. It becomes clear on its own if the Vengeance program is better than the Pens. All I think when I see these threads is Jesus, so glad that crazed parent is on someone else's team. Not a good look.

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1 hour ago, Saucey said:

COVID makes this whole argument dumber than usual. With players not being able to play, being quarantined, being sick...all rankings/comparisons get a side eye from me this year. I've had that conversation with my kid, whose team has assumed victory over another based on looking at that website and then were surprised to get beat...truly, all bets are off this season. Plus, any teams crowing from an Alpha rink that has been known to continue to operate despite shut downs, particularly gets raised eyebrows. You get an edge just from playing when no one else could.

You don't need to toot your kid's horn anonymously on a message board. It becomes clear on its own if the Vengeance program is better than the Pens. All I think when I see these threads is Jesus, so glad that crazed parent is on someone else's team. Not a good look.

??

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1 minute ago, Big Earn said:

No way tooting the horn of my kid or any other, just trying to get someone to understand that a team isn’t hiding games as suggested almost 6 days ago ?.  That has since snowballed into this.....

Why does it matter if they did? It only matters if you are placing a great deal of importance on ranking 11 and 12 year old youth hockey teams. You've got posters inviting other posters out to the proverbial parking lot. 

It's just dumb for grown people to get worked up over this stuff.

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I don't live in PA (one of my sons plays in pgh) so perhaps this is just a crazy question.  How is it that Vengeance and PPE have not or seemingly DO not play each other?  Two AAA teams within a half hour of each other, during a pandemic that makes interstate travel difficult.... can't set aside their egos and schedule some games?

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5 minutes ago, champeen said:

I don't live in PA (one of my sons plays in pgh) so perhaps this is just a crazy question.  How is it that Vengeance and PPE have not or seemingly DO not play each other?  Two AAA teams within a half hour of each other, during a pandemic that makes interstate travel difficult.... can't set aside their egos and schedule some games?

Very good question. It seems that none of the Pens Elite teams play local AAA teams at any level.  Why is that?

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23 minutes ago, Saucey said:

Why does it matter if they did? It only matters if you are placing a great deal of importance on ranking 11 and 12 year old youth hockey teams. You've got posters inviting other posters out to the proverbial parking lot. 

It's just dumb for grown people to get worked up over this stuff.

Thanks for the advice. ??

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17 minutes ago, hockeyisgreat said:

Very good question. It seems that none of the Pens Elite teams play local AAA teams at any level.  Why is that?

Because they can't let down the curtain and show their parents what other options are out there.

There should absolutely be a Pittsburgh AAA tournament every year. PPE, Vengeance, Preds, etc. Put it all out there and let the games do the talking. There is NO way PPE would ever agree to do that though unfortunately. 

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20 minutes ago, forbin said:

Because they can't let down the curtain and show their parents what other options are out there.

There should absolutely be a Pittsburgh AAA tournament every year. PPE, Vengeance, Preds, etc. Put it all out there and let the games do the talking. There is NO way PPE would ever agree to do that though unfortunately. 

Good point, would be fun for the kids also.  Many other states do this and it seems successful. 

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1 hour ago, forbin said:

Because they can't let down the curtain and show their parents what other options are out there.

There should absolutely be a Pittsburgh AAA tournament every year. PPE, Vengeance, Preds, etc. Put it all out there and let the games do the talking. There is NO way PPE would ever agree to do that though unfortunately. 

PPE has always refrained from playing local teams. Can't take the chance of even winning a game by less than 7 goals to local "faux" AAA teams. God forbid if they were to lose. MidAm tournament is the closest thing you'll get at higher ages,  Determines who goes to nationals. This is why MyHockey rankings hurt local hockey. Rankings do serve a purpose for scheduling competitive games but it also causes a lot of problems. Local programs want your $$$ and they need a selling point. "look at us, we were in the top whatever the last few years". Top competition is what matters most for your players. Pick a team that plays against good teams. A highly skilled player on an average team will get noticed when they play against top teams. Better that than a fourth liner on "elite" AAA teams. That is what I have witnessed over the years.

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Pens don’t need to. The price tag comes with a certain allotment of games and I know most parents there would rather be playing the likes of Chicago Mission or Mid Fairfield than the Vengeance or driving to Castle Shannon to see how their kid stacks up... often against players they have played with or against for years. 
 

 

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After 6 months of searching, I've finally cracked the case! The hours of logging into Live Barn cameras across the country only to be blocked by cunning ice rink operators. Or worse yet watching video trying to determine what teams are actually on the ice. Looking for any clues...helmet stickers, practice socks, custom gloves. You made it so difficult with your nondescript jerseys.
 
But here in this one little thread on this one little message board the truth of the 12 year old outlaws is revealed!
 
You thought you could elude the Covid Police by only posting 2 out of 5 games played in the far off land of Florida? But we have been scouring the internet for you scofflaws!  Examining the rating site, waiting for someone to break! We knew it was only a matter of time before some parent longing to brag about their 12 year olds success would post some scores! 
 
And those of you that thought you were so clever sneaking a second parent into games we are coming for you next.
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well since no top 10 teams will play anyone outside of the top 10, its pretty hard to play those teams, or move the rankings in a season.. so yeah if you don't report your scores vs outside of top 10, win or lose,  you don't fall out of top 10 and you get to all play each other and stay all cozy happy in the top 10 reporting all those scores cause they don't hurt you.... its all a hokes.. the rankings are a joke..the sooner everyone realizes this the better off youth hockey will be.. but that will never happen cause of ego trip parents.. congrats on showing just how ridiculous peewee hockey is thread after thread after thread.. 

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The rankings are a rough estimate of where you stand... in regards to what teams your manager should be scheduling games against. That’s about it. 
 

I would also like to touch on the ACHA and Beer league comments. That crap is on the same spectrum as the mite parents who think their kid is destined for glory... just opposite ends. 
 

If everyone bought into this doomsday approach, there would be no junior, college or pro players. And while it’s true that the higher you go up the ladder, the harder it becomes, there are some who will climb it. So take that jaded shit somewhere else. 

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1 hour ago, rock said:

well since no top 10 teams will play anyone outside of the top 10, its pretty hard to play those teams, or move the rankings in a season.. so yeah if you don't report your scores vs outside of top 10, win or lose,  you don't fall out of top 10 and you get to all play each other and stay all cozy happy in the top 10 reporting all those scores cause they don't hurt you.... its all a hokes.. the rankings are a joke..the sooner everyone realizes this the better off youth hockey will be.. but that will never happen cause of ego trip parents.. congrats on showing just how ridiculous peewee hockey is thread after thread after thread.. 

That's why PPE 16U created their own league last year so they could pick what teams they play. Never a chance of dropping in the rankings

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21 minutes ago, ctil20 said:

The rankings are a rough estimate of where you stand... in regards to what teams your manager should be scheduling games against. That’s about it. 
 

I would also like to touch on the ACHA and Beer league comments. That crap is on the same spectrum as the mite parents who think their kid is destined for glory... just opposite ends. 
 

If everyone bought into this doomsday approach, there would be no junior, college or pro players. And while it’s true that the higher you go up the ladder, the harder it becomes, there are some who will climb it. So take that jaded shit somewhere else. 

The "all roads lead to beer league" saying is misunderstood by many. I first read it from a former NHL player. If you take a look at top men's leagues across the country they are full of former junior, college, and pro players. The A league at Ice Castle has many.

I get what you're saying though. Some kids will definitely surpass ACHA. It's also true that most will not.

 

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Rock and Dropthepuck You mention that the local Tier 1 teams are not affiliated with the same leagues and none of these teams have reason to schedule any games against any local competition no matter how much anyone might want them to to "prove they are better".

So, You have four options:

1- find a way to join their leagues or other equally respected leagues -  Get in there, mix it up on their turf and walk the walk. 

2 - get invited to the same showcase tournament and beat them there

3- Beat them at districts

4 - Keep whining on message boards

The real question is, "Is this another case of phallus measurement or maybe envy?" Maybe a better question to ask is who are all of these teams trying to showcase players for. Is it the same audience..... What is their mission statement? 

BTW, here is some food for thought - below is the U18 Tier 1 national bound rankings and the leagues that they play in for the top 12 (I included 11 & 12 cuz they are way out of WPA but somehow managed to get ranked higher than anyone in Mid-Am not named PPE). If I had included U18 All, there would be SIX more Minnesota Elite teams from the upper midwest HS Elite league in the top 10 and Shattuck St. Mary's would drop to #2. PPE to 6, Esmark to 25, Ohio BJackets to 27, Tri State to 43, Gilmore to 58. Indy to 73,  Cleveland to 85, Preds to 101, and Pittsburgh (PHA) Icemen 18U AAA to 148 (below Pittsburgh Predators (Indep) 18U AA at 142 - 29th in U18 Tier 2).  The first Tier 2 team on the ALL list is Mn Voyagers at #52 playing in the MNHP 18U Tier 2.

1- Shattuck St Mary (#1) 18U Prep
Upper Midwest HS Elite League

2- Pittsburgh Penguins Elite 18U AAA
NEPack 18U AAA
4CHL 18U AAA

3- Rochester Coalition 18U AAA
BEAST 18U AAA National

4- Mount St Charles Hockey Academy 18U AAA
E9HL 18U Showcase
BEAST 18U AAA National
NEPack 18U AAA

5- Team Wisconsin 18U AAA
Upper Midwest HS Elite League

6- Culver Academies Prep
Indep USA 18U Tier 1

7- Oakland Jr Grizzlies 18U AAA
MAHA 18U AAA
HPHL 18U AAA

8- Maine Nordiques 18U AAA
BEAST 18U AAA National
MEAHA 18U Tier 1

9- Belle Tire 18U AAA
MAHA 18U AAA
T1EHL 18U AAA

10- North Jersey Avalanche (Premier) 18U AAA
AYHL 18U AAA National Premier
BEAST 18U AAA National
NEPack 18U AAA

11- Nashville Jr Predators 18U AAA
T1EHL 18U AAA

12-Rocky Mountain RoughRiders 18U AAA 
UAHL 18U AAA
CAHA-CO 18U AAA


17- Pittsburgh Esmark Stars 18U AAA
NAPHL 18U AAA Central

18- Ohio Blue Jackets 18U AAA
T1EHL 18U AAA

31- Tri-State Spartans 18U AAA
NAPHL 18U AAA Central

43-  Gilmour Academy Prep
MPHL Prep

52- Indy Jr Fuel 18U AAA
NAPHL 18U AAA Central

59- Cleveland Barons 18U AAA
T1EHL 18U AAA

61- Pittsburgh Predators 18U AAA
Indep USA 18U Tier 1

82- Pittsburgh (PHA) Icemen 18U AAA
Indep USA 18U Tier 1
 

 

The rankings serve their purpose but are not perfect but they do a pretty fair job of it.

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On 2/18/2021 at 2:06 PM, dropthepuck said:

......Top competition is what matters most for your players. Pick a team that plays against good teams. A highly skilled player on an average team will get noticed when they play against top teams. Better that than a fourth liner on "elite" AAA teams. That is what I have witnessed over the years.

Yup, agree with you here to an extent..... I assume you are talking about the skilled player that would be 1st\2nd line on a "good team" but forced into a checking role on the 3rd or 4th line on an elite team? Definitely agree that a kid is hard pressed to get noticed if they are stuck in the 3rd or 4th line role and they are asked to skate with players that cannot keep up with them or finish when they get the pass to them. Makes for lots of frustration.

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