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The Costs of AAA Hockey


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8 hours ago, Danner27 said:

Western pa is not Minnesota, we don’t have the talent in numbers. Have you seen some of our varsity teams ? It looks like Pahl a major at best. Sure each tier has 2-3 pretty good teams but after that it gets pretty bad. my main point - there is talent in western pa, just not enough to have awesome varsity teams. The top teams here have starters that wouldn’t crack a Minnesota line up. 

Spot-on assessment Danner.  I think this is where most people get confused.  Thinking Western PA is on the same level as Minn, Wisconsin, Chicago, Buffalo, Boston, etc...  It's not even close.

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Eddie Shore 

         Minnesota High School Hockey is the best by far.

          Wisconsin Really ? Buffalo NY Fed (not that great) ? Chicago (Other than New Trier Green) ? Boston (LaSalle from Philly and Dematha MD annually compete against some of the Super 8 Catholic Schools ?  

          Do some homework and what you will find is that Pa High School Hockey competes with all but Minnesota

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On 7/10/2020 at 9:57 AM, Pa Hockey said:

Eddie Shore 

         Minnesota High School Hockey is the best by far.

          Wisconsin Really ? Buffalo NY Fed (not that great) ? Chicago (Other than New Trier Green) ? Boston (LaSalle from Philly and Dematha MD annually compete against some of the Super 8 Catholic Schools ?  

          Do some homework and what you will find is that Pa High School Hockey competes with all but Minnesota

https://syndication.bleacherreport.com/amp/643555-the-state-of-hockey-ranking-the-top-10-hockey-states-in-america.amp.html

i did look into it.  The title is this thread is AAA, not high school, but what the heck.  So I wasn’t talking about High School but all youth hockey, and I stand by my statement.  I have never been impressed with Pittsburgh area hockey, and I never will.  Sorry 

Edited by Eddie Shore
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39 minutes ago, Eddie Shore said:

https://syndication.bleacherreport.com/amp/643555-the-state-of-hockey-ranking-the-top-10-hockey-states-in-america.amp.html

i did look into it.  The title is this thread is AAA, not high school, but what the heck.  So I wasn’t talking about High School but all youth hockey, and I stand by my statement.  I have never been impressed with Pittsburgh area hockey, and I never will.  Sorry 

#10 seems about right and, in my opinion not that bad. We have decent opportunities and talent in youth hockey much of the country would be dying for. 

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On 7/9/2020 at 9:18 PM, PeterThePuck said:

 

It is all because PPE brought these clowns in from the Midwest all they did was raise the costs according to Chicago Price. I give the U16 Coach Credit he good the others are terrible Coaches.

 

I understand that some PPE players from each age group have left this year for the Vengeance and some other organizations.

I was told that it was due to either the clowns, cost, parents, or a combination of all three. I am curios if this will be a new trend the next couple of years.

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15 minutes ago, BACKCHECKING said:

I understand that some PPE players from each age group have left this year for the Vengeance and some other organizations.

I was told that it was due to either the clowns, cost, parents, or a combination of all three. I am curios if this will be a new trend the next couple of years.

I heard there was a lot of bleedover too.  Are there now vengeance teams at all age levels?

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1 hour ago, BACKCHECKING said:

I understand that some PPE players from each age group have left this year for the Vengeance and some other organizations.

I was told that it was due to either the clowns, cost, parents, or a combination of all three. I am curios if this will be a new trend the next couple of years.

The elimination of PPE Black teams also contributed to the number of PPE kids playing for Vengeance or other teams.

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2 hours ago, dazedandconfused said:

If they start to figure it out, then why do they still have those farcical teams at Ice Castle? If people can't figure out that pyramid scheme, then they must be really dumb.

Great question, maybe a south hills thing ? The 18u coach also coaches a varsity team and has some of his school players every year. That fills some of it. It’s the only local midget option after PPE & Esmark, I’m sure it’s not hard to find 10 kids willing to pay that didn’t or wouldn’t make the other teams. It’s also very cheap in comparison to the other two.

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20 hours ago, aaaahockey said:

They have u16 and U18 also correct?

The Pittsburgh Vengeance Hockey Club exists to provide youth players with a pathway to college and professional hockey. Our youth teams play independent AAA schedules against the top competition at their age level, culminating in our U16 and U18 age groups in the USPHL Midget divisions. The Vengeance Junior A team plays in the USPHL Premier division, allowing players to showcase their talents to NCAA programs, as well as Tier 1 and Tier 2 Junior teams.

 

COACHING STAFF

 

SEAN BERKSTRESSER
HEAD COACH USPHL PREMIER VENGEANCE

This is from the Vengeance website

 

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7 minutes ago, BACKCHECKING said:

The Pittsburgh Vengeance Hockey Club exists to provide youth players with a pathway to college and professional hockey. Our youth teams play independent AAA schedules against the top competition at their age level, culminating in our U16 and U18 age groups in the USPHL Midget divisions. The Vengeance Junior A team plays in the USPHL Premier division, allowing players to showcase their talents to NCAA programs, as well as Tier 1 and Tier 2 Junior teams.

 

COACHING STAFF

 

SEAN BERKSTRESSER
HEAD COACH USPHL PREMIER VENGEANCE

This is from the Vengeance website

 

Ok that's what I thought. Thanks!

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On 7/16/2020 at 1:07 PM, BACKCHECKING said:

Vengeance have BY teams - 2011 to 2006

First year squirt players also play a PAHL AA schedule under the Renegades.

 

So do these teams fall under the "faux AAA" category?

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48 minutes ago, Eddie Shore said:

Ran across this.  Interesting.  A lot of common themes with regards to the organizations mission statements.  The first link is the Top 20 AAA programs in the US, the 2nd link is the Top 20 AA Programs:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yVVVfl9_sAU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lf9GS_fmMG0

 

Take those "rankings" with a grain of salt. That guy makes those videos to boost his kids ego. They lived in MN, his kid played for Gentry Academy. Now they live in IL and I'm just going to assume his kid plays for one of the "top" 5 teams on that list. Notice how he mentions that the Chicago area is the best in the country for AA numerous times? Not saying he's wrong, just saying its a pretty biased list in my opinion. 

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3 hours ago, forbin said:

Take those "rankings" with a grain of salt. That guy makes those videos to boost his kids ego. They lived in MN, his kid played for Gentry Academy. Now they live in IL and I'm just going to assume his kid plays for one of the "top" 5 teams on that list. Notice how he mentions that the Chicago area is the best in the country for AA numerous times? Not saying he's wrong, just saying its a pretty biased list in my opinion. 

Gentry’s hockey program was created by a very wealthy family who have a 03 & 04. The 03 is on the national team now, I believe the 04 is also gone. Gentry hockey will fold up soon, if not, it won’t be the power house it was at midget the past two seasons. The program was all about two bothers. 

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8 hours ago, forbin said:

Take those "rankings" with a grain of salt. That guy makes those videos to boost his kids ego. They lived in MN, his kid played for Gentry Academy. Now they live in IL and I'm just going to assume his kid plays for one of the "top" 5 teams on that list. Notice how he mentions that the Chicago area is the best in the country for AA numerous times? Not saying he's wrong, just saying its a pretty biased list in my opinion. 

Thanks for the insight, I did not know that.  When my kid was playing the only real powerhouse in Chicago was the Mission and Fury (he never played against the Fury though).  Little Ceasars was tough and so were the Junior Sabre's, and Jr Admirals .  I was shocked to see the Texas and California teams.  Also, Ashburn was ok back in the day, but I got to say when he was playing AA he probably had a winning record against Ashburn 1 at 16U.  Again, he hasn't played youth hockey in 6 years, so a lot of things may have have changed

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FEAR2-300x169.jpg

By: Topher Scott


It has been about a month since I took over as the Hockey Director of a AAA program here in Central NY.  It has been an interesting process to say the least, and I feel like I’ve learned more about the youth hockey industry in the past month than I have in all the years I’ve been involved in the sport combined.

Throughout the past month I have been doing a lot of listening…and have held back from doing a lot of speaking.  Rather than come in and impose a plan right away, I wanted to talk to as many people as I could to get a sense of where things were at and where people wanted them to go.

One of the toughest things about going this route is that people want answers right away.  Since we have to run tryouts literally the week after the season is over (rule mandated by the State), people are in a frenzy right now trying to figure out what they’re going to do next year. It’s painful.

But there’s a difference between doing things quickly…and doing them right.  I want to do them right, and that takes time.  It takes time and it takes a whole lot of feedback.  And boy, feedback is what I have gotten.  And honestly, it’s a bit troubling.

Because in my conversations with many parents, coaches, kids, and others…there is a certain word that gets brought up with a disturbing intensity:

FEAR.

The youth hockey model…and the youth sports model in general…operates and feeds off of fear.  Fear of Missing Out (FOMO). Fear of Judgement. Fear of the Unknown.

The parents feel it.  The coaches feel it.  The kids feel it.  The administrators feel it.  The fear factor is crazy…and it’s everywhere.

So I’ve put a lot of thought into where this fear comes from.  Why does the youth hockey industry make so many good people go crazy? And how do we get to a place where people can enjoy the experience rather than always looking over their shoulder? I’ll try to answer both these questions below.

Where does the fear come from?

In my opinion, the fear factor in youth hockey comes from two places:

1. The too-early professionalization of youth hockey.

2. The disconnect between parents and coaches.

Too often, and too early, we treat kids like professionals.  We treat them like professionals before they are physically, mentally, and emotionally ready to handle it.  At too young of an age, KIDS:

Play 70-80 game seasons.

Are being ranked on how they play, for the whole internet to see it.

Are being recruited to “Exposure” camps and “All-Star” teams.

Are being recruited to college and/or junior camps.

Are being coached like adults whose purpose is to win at all costs.

These things certainly affect the kids.  Imagine being 14 years old and reading negative reports about your play on the internet.  Seriously, for the people reading this that write those reports, imagine your 14 year old self.  I’m sure you were mature enough to handle what people said about you, who knew NOTHING about you but saw you play a hockey game or two.  I’m sure you were mature enough to let it slide and not let it affect your self-worth.  It’s pretty easy for 14 year olds to do that, right?

Or imagine being told that if you don’t make a certain team at 14 years old, your dreams of playing college or pro hockey are done.  Yes, that happens.  And unfortunately, our industry perpetuates it.

These kinds of things affect the kids for sure…but honestly I think it affects the parents more because it creates the biggest case of FOMO that I’ve ever seen.

Parents want what is best for their kids.  And most will go to the end of the earth to try and provide those opportunities for them.  The problem is, the early-professionalization of our sport drives the parents to feel like if they don’t do “X”, it will ruin their kids chances at “Y” way too early.  There is so much information out there trying to persuade them that the grass is greener on the other side.

If your kid doesn’t play on a top ranked team…

If your kid doesn’t make this tournament team…

If your kid doesn’t apply to this camp…

If your kid doesn’t get seen at this showcase…

If your kid doesn’t have an advisor…

The list goes on and on.

And if you look at the long list of the “If your kid doesn’ts…” very few actually have an impact on a kid’s goals and dreams.  99% of them are pure fluff centered around adults making money off of FOMO.  The one statement that should really matter is this:

“If my kid plays for a good coach with a good culture…their chances at getting to “Y” are GREATLY increased.”

I know because I’ve seen it as a college coach…and I know because I lived it.

When I was younger, my parents kept me with the good coach of the not-so-talented team rather than having me play for the “All Star” team that was heavily recruited and had a coach with the wrong intentions.  Three years later, the All Stars came to play for the good coach because our rag-tag group of kids that loved to play began beating them and they were having a miserable time with all of the pressure to win that was put on the kids and the families.

It was a great experience having gone through it, and looking back it was a PhD of what hockey development looks like.  Half our team went on to play college/pro hockey.

And as a college coach, it’s easy to see what the kids that really make it have in common:

They have a passion for the game.

They love to play.  And through that love to play comes a love to get better.  And the better you become, the better your chances of achieving your goals and dreams.

That ever-important passion is something that can be sucked out of kids if you treat them like adults too early.  I’ve seen too many talented kids go through it.  Way too many.

Seriously, way too many.  So parents, please, if you want to help your kid achieve their dreams of playing hockey at a higher level…keep that in mind.  The best thing that you can do for your kid is to put them in an environment where that passion can flourish.

But here’s where it gets interesting.  Because the feedback that I get from the coaches completely flips the script.

You certainly have coaches and admins perpetuating the FOMO in the parents by professionally coaching their kids at too early of an age.  But you also have parents putting the fear into coaches for NOT coaching their kids professionally enough.  All youth coaches will empathize with the following scenario:

They catch heat from the parents of the more talented players if their kid doesn’t play all game and thus not coaching to win.  They are threatened by the best players’ parents that if they don’t play their kid all the time, they’ll leave and find some other coach that will.  Their kid needs to win so they can be on a top ranked team so they will be scouted.  Oh yes, this happens.  Again…at way too young of a level.

But on the other side, coaches will also catch heat from the parents of the kids on the bottom end of their team if they do shorten the bench.  They will hear from those parents that their kids are losing their love for the game because they don’t play enough.

So…

They have one quarter of their team’s parents upset at too little coaching to win and not playing their kids enough.  And they have another quarter of their team’s parents upset about too much coaching to win and not playing their kids enough.  It’s lose-lose and we are losing a lot of good coaches in our sport because they just don’t want to deal with this kind of madness.

These scenarios…they happen EVERYWHERE.

This dynamic between some parents (especially parents of the more talented kids who have FOMO) and the coaches is extremely unhealthy and it toxifies team cultures.  So again, let me reiterate:

*I played for teams with a great coach, great culture, and bad talent.  We ended up being better than the team with the bad coach, bad culture, but great talent.  Over time, coaching and culture won out.  The talent/ranking didn’t.

*As a former coach in college, PASSION is a huge differentiator between kids that make it and kids that don’t.  If the culture you are generating within your team (whether you are a parent or a coach) is creating an environment that doesn’t foster passion…you need to take a look in the mirror and make some changes.

At the end of the day…the fear of judgement, the fear of missing out, the fear of the unknown…these are real fears in the youth hockey world.  And if we don’t take steps to address them, our game will continue to suffer.

So how do we change it?

There are two ways to reverse the fear that permeates our youth hockey world.

1. Proper parent and coach education

2. Reminding people to reflect upon their “Why”

Very few organizations invest time and effort into coaching or parent education.  And in my opinion, those are the two things that are most important to building a good team or organizational culture.

Coaches need to be prepared to better themselves not only about the game of hockey, but about teaching, leadership, communication, etc…  Organizations should be holding drill shares, putting on seminars, encouraging their coaches to be on the ice with other teams, and much, much more.  The better we can educate our coaches, the better our players will be.

And parent education…this is an absolute must.  We need to educate the parents about the youth hockey journey, what it entails, and what lies at the end of the ride.  Education can minimize the FOMO that so many feel as it provides expectations and knowledge about the process their kids (and themselves) will go through.

At the Hockey Think Tank, we put together a Parent Guidebook to help hockey parents out there.  Hopefully it can help any of you trying to navigate the youth hockey journey.  Click here to download: https://thehockeythinktank.com/parent-guidebook/

And what is the first section in the Guidebook?

“What is your Why?”

Parents: Why did you put your kid in youth hockey? I would guess that 90% of you put them in there to make friends, build character, exercise, and learn life lessons.

Coaches: Why did you want to coach youth hockey? I would guess that 90% of you started coaching to make a positive impact on kids.

When we take a step back and remember our why, the stress and insanity seem so juvenile.  We get so caught up in the craziness that we often forget the noble reasons we chose to put our kids into sports in the first place.  That fear we once felt…for many it just dissipates because our kids becoming good people is what really matters…not them becoming superstars.

My hope in writing this piece is that people involved in youth hockey can be encouraged to take a breath.  Take a step back and remember what youth sports should be about.  Only then can we process what makes us fearful about the journey we’re in and begin to take the steps necessary to mitigate it.  And only then can we begin to change the culture so more kids, coaches, and families can enjoy the greatest game on the planet.

For more, we are putting on a virtual “Back to Hockey” Conference on August 19th as well.  It’s a great way to get more educated and get some perspective on the hockey process…and we’ll provide TANGIBLE ideas and actions to make your hockey life easier.  It’s a few hours on a Wednesday night, and the reward will be amazing for those players, parents, and coaches that make it.  The diverse set of topics are from some of the top minds in the game…including:

-The Actual Keys to Getting Scouted/Recruited

-Becoming an Elite Athlete/Hockey Player

-Performance Nutrition

-Forming Hockey Habits

-Mental Toughness/Resiliency Training

-Boys vs. Girls Hockey

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  • 6 months later...
On 7/9/2020 at 9:18 PM, PeterThePuck said:

AAA Hockey is a scam.

If PIAA would have some balls and bring Hockey In PIAA Let the High School share the costs then there wouldn’t be Club Hockey AAA holding all the Cards.

Look how MN and WI do it High School is NO #1 and you have to stay in your Zip Codes until death.

High Schools buy the rinks and pays for Hockey.

NCAA recruits those High Schools Hard.
Look how many make it to NHL.

Very few PPE kids get drafted to USHL and parents paid all that money.

If they do Excel, North Catholic and PPE you are looking at $32,000 to $34,000 a year with Travel.

When was last time PPE put someone into NHL? Not the PGH Hornets.

It is all because PPE brought these clowns in from the Midwest all they did was raise the costs according to Chicago Price. I give the U16 Coach Credit he good the others are terrible Coaches.

 

THE HORNETS ARE BACK UNDER A DIFFERENT NAME------VENGEANCE

 

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On 7/16/2020 at 1:14 PM, fafa fohi said:

The elimination of PPE Black teams also contributed to the number of PPE kids playing for Vengeance or other teams.

THE VENGEANCE STARTED WITH THE 8'S AND NOW HAVE A TEAM FROM 2011-2006-----THEY ARE A VERY GOOD OPTION

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On 7/16/2020 at 5:58 PM, Danner27 said:

Negative, at that age parents & players start to really figure it out. Easy money to make from squirts to bantam. 

THE O8'S AND 09'S ARE COACHED BY 2 FORMER HORNETS---1 MADE NHL---FROM THE 8'S TO THE 11'S THERE ARE 4 NHLERS COACHING-----NOT TO BAD EH

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