Midam/USA hockey decision on hockey

[Danner27]

Upmc claims to have the cure, hopefully this madness ends. 

[HockeyDad23]

9 minutes ago, Quinlan2020 said:

I get what you are saying and even though a lot of us don't agree on what should be done about all this, it seems logical to agree that this is too complicated for one to claim that they could do so much better in solving these problems. A lot of these government decisions do seem arbitrary on the surface. I would like to think that (right or wrong) a lot of thought and science went into them. That doesn't mean they shouldn't be constantly revisited and scrutinized. Hopefully, they are constantly looking to adapt based on the new data.

LOL you say hopefully because you don't know. That is not a knock on you. But no one knows. No one knows what went in to the decisions early on or now. Meaning is there a metric on a dry erase board in the Gov's task force conference room that says <5% positivity rate we boost indoors to 50 persons? There isn't. It's never talked about at the state or county level. Although I do hear the Allgy Cty health official mention positivity rates are too high. I do't know what she wants to see them at or how that dictates policy.

[HockeyDad23]

4 minutes ago, Danner27 said:

Upmc claims to have the cure, hopefully this madness ends. 

I hope so. Bizarre that lawmakers say we can't open up until there is a cure. Then researches indicate they may have found a cure and they say "whoa it's too early for a cure. it is unsafe." LMAO

[sadday4hockey]

You won't see any lawmakers that actually believe in the Constitution and our freedoms saying whoa.

[sarampage]

3 hours ago, Lifelongbender said:

Has anyone actually read the decision? Are we even sure it has an effect on us?

This is a sincere question. Hilariously, half the news reports I read claimed that the decision does not affect limits on gathering size and half said it vacated the limits. I don't know what to think, other than that journalism is a totally forgotten art in America.

Haven't had a chance to go through it, but here's the 66 page Opinion.  It starts to address gathering limits on page 21. 

https://www.scribd.com/document/476044345/County-of-Butler-v-Wolf-OPINION

 

[HockeyDad23]

1 minute ago, sarampage said:

Haven't had a chance to go through it, but here's the 66 page Opinion.  It starts to address gathering limits on page 21. 

https://www.scribd.com/document/476044345/County-of-Butler-v-Wolf-OPINION

 

I read the whole thing. While it says limiting gatherings is unconstitutional and unenforceable by the governor, that is not to say the county or a private business cannot evoke the limit. So an ice rink business can choose to keep their indoor limit at 25 because they still feel they need to abide by the governors mandate. Really depends on how informed or ballsy the owner is. Doubt anyone is going to put their business on the line. Therefore I say it means nothing sadly.

[hockeyisgreat]

2 minutes ago, HockeyDad23 said:

I read the whole thing. While it says limiting gatherings is unconstitutional and unenforceable by the governor, that is not to say the county or a private business cannot evoke the limit. So an ice rink business can choose to keep their indoor limit at 25 because they still feel they need to abide by the governors mandate. Really depends on how informed or ballsy the owner is. Doubt anyone is going to put their business on the line. Therefore I say it means nothing sadly.

Wow, not sure what world you are in.  The only rinks I know of that are strictly enforcing the 25 are UPMC, RMU.  I see all kinds of people at other rinks playing full Hockey games.  Why would a private rink want to enforce that mandate if it is Unconstitutional? The only question I see is how the PAHL and PIHL are going to interpret it and how USA Hockey and Mid Am see it.

[HockeyDad23]

2 minutes ago, hockeyisgreat said:

Wow, not sure what world you are in.  The only rinks I know of that are strictly enforcing the 25 are UPMC, RMU.  I see all kinds of people at other rinks playing full Hockey games.  Why would a private rink want to enforce that mandate if it is Unconstitutional? The only question I see is how the PAHL and PIHL are going to interpret it and how USA Hockey and Mid Am see it.

I didn't say I was in another world. No reason to be an asshole.  I said a rink owner hypothetically could choose to keep the limit to 25 people and still abide by the Gov mandate because he/she thinks that is what they are supposed to do. I highly doubt they will put their business on the line and pull out the 66 page document and scream and yell "but I can have more than 25 it says it here.". Try to keep up big fella. Ask Siri to read it to you next time.

[PowerPlay]

1 hour ago, aaaahockey said:

Here is another question - if we start the season with some weird format is everyone ok if we were to be able to switch halfway through to a different format?  Could make for some interesting arguments. 

There is nothing in the USA hockey rulebook about 4 on 4 play.  I can't imagine they will sanction BS 4 on 4 games.  If someone gets injured in a 4 on 4 game,  why would USAH cover that ?  If I'm registered with them and have USA roster, my kid gets hurt playing real hockey, they won't cover that?  Seems silly.   

 

This is a big ploy to keep rinks open..  I love our rink owners and don't want to see any of them close, but we should either play real hockey or shut it down until we're "Allowed to" play.

[fafa fohi]

1 hour ago, HockeyDad23 said:

I remember watching Trump step on his tongue. Saying he had "total control" over the states. Turns out constitutionally he was wrong. All he could do was offer support to the states. And in dem states they said "no thanks."  He could only sit back and watch. And the reality of it all it actually worked out better for him. He never had to determine who was essential and who wasn't. Never evoked marshall law by keeping people locked up. The governors did that.

You are incorrect.  "Dem states" such as NY, MI, MA, NJ, CA all wanted federal assistance and never said "no thanks," particularly in PPE and testing.  Trump played the political game by saying they were on their own because they were not nice to him ( with exception to CA Governor Newsome ), yet red states such as KY, FL, the Carolina's had no issues getting federal support.    

Edited September 15, 2020 by fafa fohi

[HockeyDad23]

2 minutes ago, fafa fohi said:

You are incorrect.  "Dem states" such as NY, MI, MA, NJ, CA all wanted federal assistance, particularly in PPE and testing.  Trump played the political game by saying they were on their own because they were not nice to him ( with exception to CA Governor Newsome ), yet red states such as KY, FL, the Carolina's had no issues getting federal support.    

My mistake. I had thought Cuomo got the necessary PPE and support.  I didn't realize Trump didn't send it to those states.

[Lifelongbender]

42 minutes ago, HockeyDad23 said:

I hope so. Bizarre that lawmakers say we can't open up until there is a cure. Then researches indicate they may have found a cure and they say "whoa it's too early for a cure. it is unsafe." LMAO

Especially since they keep telling us that there will be a vaccine in November, Wait, December...

[aaaahockey]

1 hour ago, Lifelongbender said:

Yes, that makes sense. I think we are thinking the same way here. It's a good set of questions. And they'd make for some AWESOME barguments.

I can tell you this, though - as a coach, when they allow us to go to full benches and normal hockey, I'll agree at that time no matter what.

Yeah you two both are hitting on my main questions. I can see some real heat coming if some teams play "real" games and some play limited player games, especially if some are more than others because of venue or timing. 

[HockeyDad23]

Just now, Lifelongbender said:

Especially since they keep telling us that there will be a vaccine in November, Wait, December...

Folks can't talk out of both sides of their mouth. Can't say "we need a vaccine asap to stop this."   And then say "you discovered a vaccine too quickly."   Well what is the appropriate discovery time for a disease that has been deemed similar to the spanish flu?

[fafa fohi]

13 minutes ago, HockeyDad23 said:

My mistake. I had thought Cuomo got the necessary PPE and support.  I didn't realize Trump didn't send it to those states.

That is not what I said.  When states were asking for PPE, ventilators, gowns, etc. Trump said and I am paraphrasing here - "Obama raided the national stockpile on these items and did not replenish appropriately" when in fact Trump had been in office for over three years, disbanded the pandemic response team that was established during the Obama administration and lied about not having a pandemic guide left for them when he left office.  Press Sec. McEnany then showcased what the Pence task force had assembled while showing the actual binder left behind by the prior administration.

Trump promised back in early April "anyone that wants a test can get a test" which was a lie, and X amount of tests per day / week would be done when in fact, we never met those numbers until mid June.  

I am not here to get back into this political babble, but truths are truths as everyone has been here bashing everything and anything pertaining to Democrats and their leadership.  There are good and bad politicians within both parties and no political party has a mandate on being corrupt or misinformed.  

And yes, I am a Democrat and I feel Wolf has poorly led us through this pandemic to the point where I would never vote for him again for any public office.   He has failed in his response to the pandemic, and so has Trump.  Just my opinion.  

Edited September 15, 2020 by fafa fohi

[BeaverFalls]

There was no science nor metric to work towards that would allow us to increase the limit. That’s the point. 25 was it. Period. There was no greener stage. New Normal. Deal with it. 

Edited September 15, 2020 by BeaverFalls

[fafa fohi]

1 minute ago, BeaverFalls said:

There was so science nor metric to work towards that would allow us to increase the limit. That’s the point. 25 was it. Period. There was no greener stage. New Normal. Deal with it. 

And that is exactly how leadership in this state has failed miserably by not having a succession plan of any kind.  

[HockeyDad23]

2 minutes ago, BeaverFalls said:

There was so science nor metric to work towards that would allow us to increase the limit. That’s the point. 25 was it. Period. There was no greener stage. New Normal. Deal with it. 

Precisely. And the cat is outta the bag now.  Good or bad, the precedent has been set for business owners and citizens to go after their governors for deprivation of freedoms.

[BeaverFalls]

 

[aaaahockey]

So what I am hearing is we can now have full hockey games until Wolf gets his stay and since his order was vacated MidAm would approve since we would be following state law. 

[Danner27]

6 minutes ago, aaaahockey said:

So what I am hearing is we can now have full hockey games until Wolf gets his stay and since his order was vacated MidAm would approve since we would be following state law. 

Not that I don’t believe you, until we see rinks such as Warrendale & Rmu allow full play it doesn’t really matter. Both of those rinks are The ones holding up PAHL and PIHL. 

[HockeyDad23]

3 minutes ago, Danner27 said:

Not that I don’t believe you, until we see rinks such as Warrendale & Rmu allow full play it doesn’t really matter. Both of those rinks are The ones holding up PAHL and PIHL. 

Spot on. That is why I mentioned earlier that businesses need to buy in to the decision. My fear is they do not understand the legal relief it provides. In their minds the governor said 25 so that is what we're gonna continue to do. But as a business owner they can dictate what they want.

[aaaahockey]

12 minutes ago, Danner27 said:

Not that I don’t believe you, until we see rinks such as Warrendale & Rmu allow full play it doesn’t really matter. Both of those rinks are The ones holding up PAHL and PIHL. 

I agree with you there too about the rinks.  According to to the lawyer video posted above we can play full games based on mid am guidance. 

[BeaverFalls]

23 minutes ago, Danner27 said:

Not that I don’t believe you, until we see rinks such as Warrendale & Rmu allow full play it doesn’t really matter. Both of those rinks are The ones holding up PAHL and PIHL. 

Then they can just watch. Honestly. Let’s not hijack the whole god damn league. 

[Wes]

1 hour ago, HockeyDad23 said:

Precisely. And the cat is outta the bag now.  Good or bad, the precedent has been set for business owners and citizens to go after their governors for deprivation of freedoms.

Its going to get real ugly financially for states like PA that did these illegal shutdowns... big lawsuits a comin'