Midam/USA hockey decision on hockey

[Lifelongbender]

27 minutes ago, Quinlan2020 said:

The closures in the Spring were justified. It saved us from having more catastrophic results. We all saw what happened in Bergamo, Italy & Madrid, Spain. The fools that deem them unconstitutional do not acknowledge that. That being said, It is not practical to go back to such measures. It's obvious that the medical advances have made Covid-19 more tolerable and more people are masking now. The economy is already open despite what some say. Yes, there still restrictions, but they are much more relaxed now and enforcement hasn't been very aggressive. A lot of people want them all to go away like someone turning a switch. The phased approach is much more practical, so that the effects can be seen before progressing to the next step. We just started opening schools/colleges, indoor dining and high school sports are kicking into full swing. There are even some fans allowed at events now. I anticipate more restrictions being lifted if things don't go sour. Have a little patience. I think will get to the place we all want to be a lot quicker if we just do things methodically.

Sigh. We have no way of knowing what would have happened under any set of restrictions that differ materially from the ones they imposed. @Quinlan2020, your sentence "The fools that deem them unconstitutional do not acknowledge that" has a MAJOR flaw in it given your intended argument - whether the restrictions enacted were constitutional is not determined by whether they were effective. You seem to have that distinction entirely confused. Even if you were right about the effectiveness of the measures taken, it is still quite possible that they are unconstitutional.

We all understand your point of view, and as I have said before, I do not doubt your sincerity. However, you are either a doctor or a hypocrite, since you are giving a whole lot of medical opinion up there, having accused others of overstepping when they gave their own opinions. 

And, for what it's worth, it is not obvious at all that "medical advances" have made COVID more tolerable. It may be that masking has caused improvements in some areas (but I strongly doubt it), but there hasn't been any at-large improvement due to medical science, given that we are all doing exactly the same thing they told us to do in March. This after telling us for a while not to wear the masks, by the way.

Look, can we stop having this stupid, unwinnable, entirely non-factual argument, and talk about the hockey? You responded to "Open the economy!" with "The measures put in place were justified". That wasn't a response to what the man actually said. Let it go, dude.

[HockeyDad23]

1 minute ago, ctil20 said:

Wolf “appealing” this right now screams hurt ego. The numbers don’t warrant the restrictions anymore. 
 

If there are no significant issues that arise from a more relaxed approach (via federal judge).. and Wolf continues to try to appeal - not only will Pennsylvania be a landslide towards Trump but it will remain red until the generations who dealt with this fiasco are not voting anymore. 

I do find it interesting that there is a direct correlation between those that preach the stay locked up, fear, stay home stuff are Biden voters. Not in all cases. I'm not saying it as a bad thing. It is just fascinating. I also found it fascinating that those that preached stay home, shut it down, save lives all got to work from home and kept their salary. I don't remember hearing too many that were unemployed saying "keep it shut down!!!."

[HockeyDad23]

2 minutes ago, Lifelongbender said:

Sigh. We have no way of knowing what would have happened under any set of restrictions that differ materially from the ones they imposed. @Quinlan2020, your sentence "The fools that deem them unconstitutional do not acknowledge that" has a MAJOR flaw in it given your intended argument - whether the restrictions enacted were constitutional is not determined by whether they were effective. You seem to have that distinction entirely confused. Even if you were right about the effectiveness of the measures taken, it is still quite possible that they are unconstitutional.

We all understand your point of view, and as I have said before, I do not doubt your sincerity. However, you are either a doctor or a hypocrite, since you are giving a whole lot of medical opinion up there, having accused others of overstepping when they gave their own opinions. 

And, for what it's worth, it is not obvious at all that "medical advances" have made COVID more tolerable. It may be that masking has caused improvements in some areas (but I strongly doubt it), but there hasn't been any at-large improvement due to medical science, given that we are all doing exactly the same thing they told us to do in March. This after telling us for a while not to wear the masks, by the way.

Look, can we stop having this stupid, unwinnable, entirely non-factual argument, and talk about the hockey? You responded to "Open the economy!" with "The measures put in place were justified". That wasn't a response to what the man actually said. Let it go, dude.

To this day, at least in PA, I never heard medical staff of the governor say something like this. "We looked at buildings and the ability for the virus to spread. When we started looking at data from other states or China, we crunched the numbers and figured 25 people was a good number for indoors."  Hence, no science, no data, all arbitrary.   In theory, the science and data should all be consistent. Each state should be looking at said data. But PA has 25, OH has 50% capacity, blah blah blah.  But to your point (and I'm being sarcastic) the 25 people restriction saved lives and kept our cases lower than if it had been 100....right.

[fafa fohi]

57 minutes ago, ctil20 said:

Wolf “appealing” this right now screams hurt ego. The numbers don’t warrant the restrictions anymore. 
 

If there are no significant issues that arise from a more relaxed approach (via federal judge).. and Wolf continues to try to appeal - not only will Pennsylvania be a landslide towards Trump but it will remain red until the generations who dealt with this fiasco are not voting anymore. 
 

The issues that separated democrat and republican are minute now. There are larger fish to fry, and one party is handling those fish a lot better than the other. One party is gaining new customers, while the other is toiling away in crazy town - and lacking the self awareness to stop the spiral. 
 

Tom Wolf is a major asset for Trump. He is converting Democrats to Republicans by the hoards.  He is not alone, this is happening everywhere. From letting cities burn, to telling everyone to stay in their house. 
 

It’s not even Democrat and republican anymore. It’s the circus versus’s somewhat normal, but better than the clown car. 

Sorry but this is a load of crap.  Wolf mishandling this does not define the Democratic Party nor serve as their litmus test.   You are calling this episode a circus?  What in the hell would you call the last 3 1/2 years?  
 

Your comment of Wolf “converting Democrats to Republicans in hoards” is a joke.  As a Democrat that believed Wolf failed miserably in his handling of the outbreak, I don’t know of a single Dem changing parties because of his missteps.  65% of the voting public polled this week say Trump and his task force mishandled the outbreak.  Get real.  
 

https://thehill.com/homenews/administration/516180-almost-2-in-3-americans-disapprove-of-trumps-handling-of-pandemic

Edited September 17, 2020 by fafa fohi

[Quinlan2020]

39 minutes ago, Lifelongbender said:

Sigh. We have no way of knowing what would have happened under any set of restrictions that differ materially from the ones they imposed. @Quinlan2020, your sentence "The fools that deem them unconstitutional do not acknowledge that" has a MAJOR flaw in it given your intended argument - whether the restrictions enacted were constitutional is not determined by whether they were effective. You seem to have that distinction entirely confused. Even if you were right about the effectiveness of the measures taken, it is still quite possible that they are unconstitutional.

We all understand your point of view, and as I have said before, I do not doubt your sincerity. However, you are either a doctor or a hypocrite, since you are giving a whole lot of medical opinion up there, having accused others of overstepping when they gave their own opinions. 

And, for what it's worth, it is not obvious at all that "medical advances" have made COVID more tolerable. It may be that masking has caused improvements in some areas (but I strongly doubt it), but there hasn't been any at-large improvement due to medical science, given that we are all doing exactly the same thing they told us to do in March. This after telling us for a while not to wear the masks, by the way.

Look, can we stop having this stupid, unwinnable, entirely non-factual argument, and talk about the hockey? You responded to "Open the economy!" with "The measures put in place were justified". That wasn't a response to what the man actually said. Let it go, dude.

Your point about unconstitutional & effectiveness is recognized. This has been an incredibly unique crisis where I am going to give some slack any decision that is in the interest of saving lives. This has been a war that the federal government hasn't been too interested in fighting, so the states had to do what they could to fill the void. It's hard to believe that we were willing to send our young people off to die in foreign wars but we can't accept any inconveniences to fight this one on our own land.

It is obvious that the death rate has decreased a lot from where it was back in April. My own doctor just recently told me how this last 6 months they have gained more knowledge relating to treatment techniques and that they are having better outcomes. Mask wearing has definitely increased since March. It's up to about 60%. That's still not good enough, but it's better than it was. Being told not to wear masks was a mistake, but that's pretty far in the past now.

People keep forgetting that I am on the same side and want hockey/sports to resume in full as quickly as possible. I just think the quickest path to that is a bit different.

[HockeyDad23]

36 minutes ago, fafa fohi said:

Sorry but this is a load of crap.  Wolf mishandling this does not define the Democratic Party nor serve as their litmus test.   You are calling this episode a circus?  What in the hell would you call the last 3 1/2 years?  
 

Your comment of Wolf “converting Democrats to Republicans in hoards” is a joke.  As a Democrat that believed Wolf failed miserably in his handling of the outbreak, I don’t know of a single Dem changing parties because of his missteps.  65% of the voting public polled this week say Trump and his task force mishandled the outbreak.  Get real.  
 

https://thehill.com/homenews/administration/516180-almost-2-in-3-americans-disapprove-of-trumps-handling-of-pandemic

That was a good article. I think everyone on both sides of the aisle can play monday morning QB on what the other party did or should have did.  This topic is ripe for Biden to pile on the virus response. Unfortunately his party has their own hurdles in the public perception. 

[Danner27]

2 hours ago, fafa fohi said:

Sorry but this is a load of crap.  Wolf mishandling this does not define the Democratic Party nor serve as their litmus test.   You are calling this episode a circus?  What in the hell would you call the last 3 1/2 years?  
 

Your comment of Wolf “converting Democrats to Republicans in hoards” is a joke.  As a Democrat that believed Wolf failed miserably in his handling of the outbreak, I don’t know of a single Dem changing parties because of his missteps.  65% of the voting public polled this week say Trump and his task force mishandled the outbreak.  Get real.  
 

https://thehill.com/homenews/administration/516180-almost-2-in-3-americans-disapprove-of-trumps-handling-of-pandemic

Please don’t come in with “the hill” propaganda “news” site. 

[fafa fohi]

6 minutes ago, Danner27 said:

Please don’t come in with “the hill” propaganda “news” site. 

Do a Google search on Trump's approval rating on his handling of COVID.  You will find polls from multiple news sources confirming my point.  You dispute what I provided while providing zero proof to counter.  Shocking.

If you took the time to read the article, you would have found The Hill was simply reporting the results of the poll.  They weren't the ones that conducted it.

Please don't be so lazy next time before posting.

Edited September 17, 2020 by fafa fohi

[BeaverFalls]

On 9/16/2020 at 5:46 PM, Novos51 said:

Because like all federal rulings it will be appealed and a stay will be issued. Current rules stay in effect until the Governor gives up or it gets to the Supreme Court. Neither of which will happen any time soon. 
 

Those who filed this had no expectation of a quick answer but are trying to set a constitutional precedent as to government powers. 

Untrue. The limits are no longer valid and will stay that way unless a stay is granted or the decision is overturned by the 3rd circuit court of appeals. 

[BeaverFalls]

Lmao. The same polls that say Biden is up by 15?

[BeaverFalls]

Again, the incongruity of this whole thing is what makes people upset and skeptical. 

[ctil20]

6 hours ago, fafa fohi said:

Sorry but this is a load of crap.  Wolf mishandling this does not define the Democratic Party nor serve as their litmus test.   You are calling this episode a circus?  What in the hell would you call the last 3 1/2 years?  
 

Your comment of Wolf “converting Democrats to Republicans in hoards” is a joke.  As a Democrat that believed Wolf failed miserably in his handling of the outbreak, I don’t know of a single Dem changing parties because of his missteps.  65% of the voting public polled this week say Trump and his task force mishandled the outbreak.  Get real.  
 

https://thehill.com/homenews/administration/516180-almost-2-in-3-americans-disapprove-of-trumps-handling-of-pandemic

Hey Chief,

I voted for Obama.

I’m sorry that you cannot see the forest from the trees. I couldn’t either. Say what you want about Trump. The reality is he is an effective president, who can’t get out of his own way due to his ego. 
 

The Democratic Party though? Buddy, take a look at the cities being torched to the ground. Take a look at the crime rates in Dem run cities. Take a look at how fucking unhinged and wacky that party has become. 
 

You want Biden in the whitehouse sympathizing for all of the social misfits burning and looting cities? Wait until it shows up on your doorstep- you’ll change your tune very quickly. 
 

My advice to you is that you take a hard look at what is going on with “the Democrats”. Donald Trump, this virus, and the rioting/looting etc have exposed them for what they really are.

The party of delusion. This isn’t Bill Clinton’s Democrats anymore Chief. This is AOC’s Democrats, aka the clown car. Furthermore, that party could give fuck all about you... you don’t fit their agenda. 
 

Wake up. 

 

Edited September 18, 2020 by ctil20

[AngryKid001]

OMG!  Stop it girls, you are both pretty...

Can you move this political stuff over to Fox News or the Hill chat and let's focus on collectively writing our representatives to take a science based approach to indoor capacity size vs arbitrary number of 25?

 

[carroll81]

2 hours ago, BeaverFalls said:

Again, the incongruity of this whole thing is what makes people upset and skeptical. 

Here's the difference, and I am not advocating that the actual numbers are justified, just explaining the difference.  It is exposure time.

In that store, no one of those 322 is next to someone for more than a minute, with the exception of the checkout, which is a few minutes.  At a sporting event, people are next to each other for up to an  hour and a half.  

[nemesis8679]

46 minutes ago, carroll81 said:

Here's the difference, and I am not advocating that the actual numbers are justified, just explaining the difference.  It is exposure time.

In that store, no one of those 322 is next to someone for more than a minute, with the exception of the checkout, which is a few minutes.  At a sporting event, people are next to each other for up to an  hour and a half.  

Only they aren't, they can easily be 6 foot or more apart. 

[Danner27]

2 hours ago, carroll81 said:

Here's the difference, and I am not advocating that the actual numbers are justified, just explaining the difference.  It is exposure time.

In that store, no one of those 322 is next to someone for more than a minute, with the exception of the checkout, which is a few minutes.  At a sporting event, people are next to each other for up to an  hour and a half.  

Here folks is where the science goes bad, this is how people use math to lie.
 

It doesn’t matter if you are next to a person with covid for 30 seconds or 3 hours, it only matters for the 2 seconds when that person sneezes or coughs! When the droplets fly!
 

now we can reverse that science to fit another narrative, let’s use this example.  4 v 4 with 9 skaters sitting on the bench. 9 more players sitting in a locker room. The kids on the bench are not sitting next to each other for more than a minute or so. The kids in the locker are sitting with each for 30 minutes not moving. 
 

this is how science and numbers are manipulated to fit narratives. 

[Lifelongbender]

15 hours ago, Quinlan2020 said:

Your point about unconstitutional & effectiveness is recognized. This has been an incredibly unique crisis where I am going to give some slack any decision that is in the interest of saving lives. This has been a war that the federal government hasn't been too interested in fighting, so the states had to do what they could to fill the void. It's hard to believe that we were willing to send our young people off to die in foreign wars but we can't accept any inconveniences to fight this one on our own land.

It is obvious that the death rate has decreased a lot from where it was back in April. My own doctor just recently told me how this last 6 months they have gained more knowledge relating to treatment techniques and that they are having better outcomes. Mask wearing has definitely increased since March. It's up to about 60%. That's still not good enough, but it's better than it was. Being told not to wear masks was a mistake, but that's pretty far in the past now.

People keep forgetting that I am on the same side and want hockey/sports to resume in full as quickly as possible. I just think the quickest path to that is a bit different.

This is an entirely reasonable response. I have to say that typically the federal government - and government in general, at least in our system - is supposed to make most decisions based on cost/benefit analysis. By that measure it is hard to see how the shutdowns were justified, They are only justified by the argument that saving a relatively small number of lives is worth the cost to the economy. This is a discussion more suited to a political forum than to this one.

It is obvious that the death rate has decreased. It's even obvious that they know a bit more about treatment now - for instance, the stuff they learned about ventilators - but it is by no means obvious that any advance in medical science is behind the downward trend in infection rates, because they haven't made any changes in their recommendations for what the average citizen should do, and in fact citizens are doing less of it as well.

I know - you'll point to charts showing that trends are locally upwards. I have seen them. But our current rates are nothing like the rates in the spring, right?

Regarding masks, my own doctor told me at my last physical that he isn't sure that they are effective, and he made a point of saying that the science is intensely debated, but that on balance he couldn't see how they hurt, so he recommended wearing one in public places like restaurants, stores, and the like. That made sense to me, and in any case it's required by law and specifically was not ruled unconstitutional, so I do so willingly if a bit unhappily. As I have said, if the cost for our kids to play the great game of hockey is us wearing masks to the arenas, that is a very small cost.

My only real concern with your post is in the second sentence. There are going to be situations where others feel an infringement upon your rights is justified for their own reasons, and you do not. If we start giving the government the latitude to infringe upon rights wholesale, they are no longer rights in any real sense of that word. I am concerned about the reasoning that leads to a statement like "in these extreme times it makes sense to bend the rules".

Having said all of that, I have to start setting up lines and game plans for full roster games. Let's go play some hockey!

[aaaahockey]

5 hours ago, Danner27 said:

 The kids in the locker are sitting with each for 30 minutes not moving. 

What locker room are you in ???!!!  I kid it's a good point about locker rooms.  ?

[Chinstrap]

2 hours ago, Lifelongbender said:

This is an entirely reasonable response. I have to say that typically the federal government - and government in general, at least in our system - is supposed to make most decisions based on cost/benefit analysis. By that measure it is hard to see how the shutdowns were justified, They are only justified by the argument that saving a relatively small number of lives is worth the cost to the economy. This is a discussion more suited to a political forum than to this one.

It is obvious that the death rate has decreased. It's even obvious that they know a bit more about treatment now - for instance, the stuff they learned about ventilators - but it is by no means obvious that any advance in medical science is behind the downward trend in infection rates, because they haven't made any changes in their recommendations for what the average citizen should do, and in fact citizens are doing less of it as well.

I know - you'll point to charts showing that trends are locally upwards. I have seen them. But our current rates are nothing like the rates in the spring, right?

Regarding masks, my own doctor told me at my last physical that he isn't sure that they are effective, and he made a point of saying that the science is intensely debated, but that on balance he couldn't see how they hurt, so he recommended wearing one in public places like restaurants, stores, and the like. That made sense to me, and in any case it's required by law and specifically was not ruled unconstitutional, so I do so willingly if a bit unhappily. As I have said, if the cost for our kids to play the great game of hockey is us wearing masks to the arenas, that is a very small cost.

My only real concern with your post is in the second sentence. There are going to be situations where others feel an infringement upon your rights is justified for their own reasons, and you do not. If we start giving the government the latitude to infringe upon rights wholesale, they are no longer rights in any real sense of that word. I am concerned about the reasoning that leads to a statement like "in these extreme times it makes sense to bend the rules".

Having said all of that, I have to start setting up lines and game plans for full roster games. Let's go play some hockey!

Very well stated. 

[HockeyDad23]

The only argument from the governor or others on the 9 vs 9 and others in the lockeroom would be, "then don't play."  

He is quoted saying education is more important than sports and said sports should not resume till January 2021.  So for us to state kids are more exposed in the lockeroom next to eachother than on the bench......someone from that camp would say, good point, no hockey for you now.  In reality we created that temporary hockey model based on guidance of 25 indoors.

I'm going to cram as many scheduled games in the next few weeks to take advantage of our current situation.

[carroll81]

8 hours ago, Danner27 said:

Here folks is where the science goes bad, this is how people use math to lie.
 

It doesn’t matter if you are next to a person with covid for 30 seconds or 3 hours, it only matters for the 2 seconds when that person sneezes or coughs! When the droplets fly!
 

now we can reverse that science to fit another narrative, let’s use this example.  4 v 4 with 9 skaters sitting on the bench. 9 more players sitting in a locker room. The kids on the bench are not sitting next to each other for more than a minute or so. The kids in the locker are sitting with each for 30 minutes not moving. 
 

this is how science and numbers are manipulated to fit narratives. 

That was the original science - droplets.  Now the science says aerosol also.  Droplets = Distance.  Aerosols = Exposure (space you are in and length of time in that space).  Not using math.  I specifically said I was not going to argue the math.  The point is you have to use different math for the different exposure types.  

I agree with your points about locker rooms vs. benches.  I've made that point before.

Using your argument about the 2 seconds when someone coughs on you is valid, hence my previous points about lining up for faceoffs.  Other youth sports (lacrosse) have eliminated faceoffs for now.  Other youth hockey leagues have also eliminated faceoffs now.

 

[Quinlan2020]

4 hours ago, Lifelongbender said:

This is an entirely reasonable response. I have to say that typically the federal government - and government in general, at least in our system - is supposed to make most decisions based on cost/benefit analysis. By that measure it is hard to see how the shutdowns were justified, They are only justified by the argument that saving a relatively small number of lives is worth the cost to the economy. This is a discussion more suited to a political forum than to this one.

It is obvious that the death rate has decreased. It's even obvious that they know a bit more about treatment now - for instance, the stuff they learned about ventilators - but it is by no means obvious that any advance in medical science is behind the downward trend in infection rates, because they haven't made any changes in their recommendations for what the average citizen should do, and in fact citizens are doing less of it as well.

I know - you'll point to charts showing that trends are locally upwards. I have seen them. But our current rates are nothing like the rates in the spring, right?

Regarding masks, my own doctor told me at my last physical that he isn't sure that they are effective, and he made a point of saying that the science is intensely debated, but that on balance he couldn't see how they hurt, so he recommended wearing one in public places like restaurants, stores, and the like. That made sense to me, and in any case it's required by law and specifically was not ruled unconstitutional, so I do so willingly if a bit unhappily. As I have said, if the cost for our kids to play the great game of hockey is us wearing masks to the arenas, that is a very small cost.

My only real concern with your post is in the second sentence. There are going to be situations where others feel an infringement upon your rights is justified for their own reasons, and you do not. If we start giving the government the latitude to infringe upon rights wholesale, they are no longer rights in any real sense of that word. I am concerned about the reasoning that leads to a statement like "in these extreme times it makes sense to bend the rules".

Having said all of that, I have to start setting up lines and game plans for full roster games. Let's go play some hockey!

I just dispute the part about the science behind masks being intensely debated. It seems that any science-related person debating it is a member of a small minority. I hear your concern about that slippery slope involving our rights. It is a valid concern as you look around the world and see how fragile democracy can be. To me, it's one of those candidates for risk-reward reward analysis. I know that we'll never agree on the risk/reward ratio, but that's where I'm coming from. It seems like things such as the Defense Production Act and the registering for the selective service are an infringement as well. We never seem to question those. I think these restrictions do seem pretty arbitrary, but I don't find myself qualified to come up with a good plan. People were put in positions to make these decisions and I try to respect them. I understand the dissent, but it doesn't seem like a total hardship to put up with these rules a little bit longer. I think the kids will be fine whether we play 5 on 5 or whatever. I hope the restrictions change soon but I will tolerate summer hockey in the fall by convincing myself that it just may be for the greater good.

[ctil20]

14 hours ago, AngryKid001 said:

 

 

No.

Edited September 18, 2020 by ctil20

[BeaverFalls]

#2 Fascinating detail from Judge Stickman's 9.14.20 Order, County of Butler, et al, v. Gov Wolf et al.: the members of Gov Wolf's "reopening team" and "policy team" - the two "teams" that came up with the COVID-19 Restrictions, including the Business Closure and Stay At Home Orders among others, are not only UNKNOWN, but during their countless meetings they took NO MINUTES. So there's no record of their deliberations. Who knows what they reviewed, whom they consulted with or what anyone said? No one! There's no record.

[Eddie Shore]

On 9/17/2020 at 3:24 PM, Quinlan2020 said:

Your point about unconstitutional & effectiveness is recognized. This has been an incredibly unique crisis where I am going to give some slack any decision that is in the interest of saving lives. This has been a war that the federal government hasn't been too interested in fighting, so the states had to do what they could to fill the void. It's hard to believe that we were willing to send our young people off to die in foreign wars but we can't accept any inconveniences to fight this one on our own land.

It is obvious that the death rate has decreased a lot from where it was back in April. My own doctor just recently told me how this last 6 months they have gained more knowledge relating to treatment techniques and that they are having better outcomes. Mask wearing has definitely increased since March. It's up to about 60%. That's still not good enough, but it's better than it was. Being told not to wear masks was a mistake, but that's pretty far in the past now.

People keep forgetting that I am on the same side and want hockey/sports to resume in full as quickly as possible. I just think the quickest path to that is a bit different.

Same side?  Buddy, you and I ain’t on the same side of anything.  I find you repulsive and all you stand for.  I only hope you and your family feel the same pain as others by having their lives destroyed by others for nothing more than political gains.  The truth is coming out now

https://www.newsweek.com/nashville-officials-withheld-covid-numbers-restaurants-bars-because-cases-were-so-low-emails-show-1532641?utm_term=Autofeed&utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Twitter&fbclid=IwAR3HdazVXAubMPInqCTa4kX8ZfrnAZiGcZxicKfLZ3wvs9Q2ZPY2wukClC8#Echobox=1600360716