Icemen - why?

[dazedandconfused]

So the Icemen 18U team is a "AAA" team that so far is 3-4 against nothing but AA opponents. Is there any logical explanation as to WHY they do this? By 18U, shouldn't people realize where this is all going? Shouldn't the need for the extra A have gone away by now?

[Saucey]

There is a market for it. So long as people will pay for that extra A....but I get you. Most people lose interest by that age 

[dazedandconfused]

But they could be Tier 2 (my God, the horror) and play some AAA teams and yet still have the opportunity to compete to attend Nationals. Classifying Tier 1 just makes zero sense.

[Danner27]

7 minutes ago, dazedandconfused said:

But they could be Tier 2 (my God, the horror) and play some AAA teams and yet still have the opportunity to compete to attend Nationals. Classifying Tier 1 just makes zero sense.

Parents, that team (18U) was originally declaring tier 2. 

[PUCKCOVID19]

Seems their u16 team is the only team that's even playing somewhat of a AAA schedule. 

[dazedandconfused]

Correct. The initial rankings just came out and the 15U team is already eliminated from contention to qualify for Districts. There's always next year.

[Danner27]

9 hours ago, dazedandconfused said:

Correct. The initial rankings just came out and the 15U team is already eliminated from contention to qualify for Districts. There's always next year.

Ha! I haven’t followed the rankings very much the past few years. This early, plus add covid it’s probably not close to accurate, I doubt any teams will move up as the season goes on, just down. 

[PUCKCOVID19]

10 hours ago, dazedandconfused said:

Correct. The initial rankings just came out and the 15U team is already eliminated from contention to qualify for Districts. There's always next year.

look at their strength of schedule and who they have played.  Not even a top 150 AA and they are claiming AAA? the posse up there are laughing all the way to the bank!!!

 

[telleophone]

(Laughs in smugness at the U18AAA situation...)

 

[twoboys]

On 10/7/2020 at 8:54 PM, PUCKCOVID19 said:

look at their strength of schedule and who they have played.  Not even a top 150 AA and they are claiming AAA? the posse up there are laughing all the way to the bank!!!

 

My friend's son is on that team.  And he is quite happy.  What are the other 05 options?  Aren't people on this board complaining about the Preds and Lebo too?    

[hockeyisgreat]

41 minutes ago, twoboys said:

My friend's son is on that team.  And he is quite happy.  What are the other 05 options?  Aren't people on this board complaining about the Preds and Lebo too?    

People on this board complain about all the teams. I guess there should only be one AAA team in each division for WPA and let the parents fight it out to see who gets to play!

[Saucey]

18 hours ago, hockeyisgreat said:

People on this board complain about all the teams. I guess there should only be one AAA team in each division for WPA and let the parents fight it out to see who gets to play!

People complain about teams labeling themselves as AAA and selling that when both the talent on the team and their schedule are no where near AAA. So long as organizations do that, they will be made fun of. The practice hurts youth hockey as it dilutes the local talent pool. 'But PAHL is terrible....but we want to travel....PAHL doesn't offer what we want' blah blah blah. All arguments that have been addressed here ad naseum. The bottom line is that PAHL doesn't offer the vaunted extra A. Which still gets you nothing, because legit AAA programs aren't going to play the faux teams. Just call yourself independent, but no...I want to brag my kid is AAA....spend all my weekends traveling to play other similarly delusional programs....and the programs would be made of for that, but at least not for adding an extra A to their name and pretending to be something that they are not.

[hockeyisgreat]

57 minutes ago, Saucey said:

People complain about teams labeling themselves as AAA and selling that when both the talent on the team and their schedule are no where near AAA. So long as organizations do that, they will be made fun of. The practice hurts youth hockey as it dilutes the local talent pool. 'But PAHL is terrible....but we want to travel....PAHL doesn't offer what we want' blah blah blah. All arguments that have been addressed here ad naseum. The bottom line is that PAHL doesn't offer the vaunted extra A. Which still gets you nothing, because legit AAA programs aren't going to play the faux teams. Just call yourself independent, but no...I want to brag my kid is AAA....spend all my weekends traveling to play other similarly delusional programs....and the programs would be made of for that, but at least not for adding an extra A to their name and pretending to be something that they are not.

Ok so I am trying to understand all of this. The complaint is that Organizations have AAA teams with AA talent.  They say they are AAA to get peoples money who want an extra A for their kids.  Who is the evaluator for AAA talent?  Seems to me there should be someone or someway to determine true AAA talent and if there are say 60 kids at that level in WesternPa then have 4 teams. If there are only 30 then have 2 teams.  Is someone getting Rich by promoting so many AAA teams?  It is expensive to play hockey period.  Why is AAA more expensive than AA? Travel? More practice? Better Coaching?  Really just trying to understand as a newbee to Hockey.

[PUCKCOVID19]

1 hour ago, Saucey said:

People complain about teams labeling themselves as AAA and selling that when both the talent on the team and their schedule are no where near AAA. So long as organizations do that, they will be made fun of. The practice hurts youth hockey as it dilutes the local talent pool. 'But PAHL is terrible....but we want to travel....PAHL doesn't offer what we want' blah blah blah. All arguments that have been addressed here ad naseum. The bottom line is that PAHL doesn't offer the vaunted extra A. Which still gets you nothing, because legit AAA programs aren't going to play the faux teams. Just call yourself independent, but no...I want to brag my kid is AAA....spend all my weekends traveling to play other similarly delusional programs....and the programs would be made of for that, but at least not for adding an extra A to their name and pretending to be something that they are not.

SPOT ON!!!! TRUTH HURTS!!!

[Seejay784]

Well PAHL is terrible but that's coming from someone who's kid is not good enough to play AAA, but he's a solid AA player. Walking away from PAHL and joining a 100% independent team was the best decision we ever made. 

BUT I get it with the AAA teams. If you are calling yourself Tier 1 and play majority of Tier 2 teams you are nothing but a money grabber. Now if you are playing Tier 1 teams and getting beat up, I'm okay with that. That will make a kid better in the long run in my opinion. 

[Saucey]

12 minutes ago, Seejay784 said:

Well PAHL is terrible but that's coming from someone who's kid is not good enough to play AAA, but he's a solid AA player. Walking away from PAHL and joining a 100% independent team was the best decision we ever made. 

BUT I get it with the AAA teams. If you are calling yourself Tier 1 and play majority of Tier 2 teams you are nothing but a money grabber. Now if you are playing Tier 1 teams and getting beat up, I'm okay with that. That will make a kid better in the long run in my opinion. 

Interesting. Goes against everything I've learned as a coach. Playing up a little....yes. Huge waste of time for all involved on that sheet if the result is a massive difference. Competition....it means being competitive.

As to your second point....if all you are doing is acting other similarly low level Tier 1 teams to you....chances are none of you are Tier 1.

Edited October 13, 2020 by Saucey
Second point

[Saucey]

18 minutes ago, hockeyisgreat said:

Ok so I am trying to understand all of this. The complaint is that Organizations have AAA teams with AA talent.  They say they are AAA to get peoples money who want an extra A for their kids.  Who is the evaluator for AAA talent?  Seems to me there should be someone or someway to determine true AAA talent and if there are say 60 kids at that level in WesternPa then have 4 teams. If there are only 30 then have 2 teams.  Is someone getting Rich by promoting so many AAA teams?  It is expensive to play hockey period.  Why is AAA more expensive than AA? Travel? More practice? Better Coaching?  Really just trying to understand as a newbee to Hockey.

There is some sort of application process with MidAm I believe.

In reality, though, the coach of the program makes the determination. And sometimes, it is the parents. Esmark I know will straight up tell them the talent is not AAA that came out this year, but we'll take your money if you want to proceed. And sometimes the parents do. If a program is up front about it, from a consumer stand point, ok, but I don't see how that helps your organization in the long run. 

[Lifelongbender]

4 minutes ago, Saucey said:

Interesting. Goes against everything I've learned as a coach. Playing up a little....yes. Huge waste of time for all involved on that sheet if the result is a massive difference. Competition....it means being competitive.

I agree with @Saucey on this one.

What I don't understand is why we are all, yet again, frothing at the mouth about a team calling itself AAA in our area. We all understand that there aren't too many real AAA players in this area, and we all understand that the team(s) in question probably aren't really AAA level. Unfortunately there are people who are either willing to pay for an additional 'A', in which case it's their wasted money, or people who fall for the hype regarding such teams, in which case they should have done more research. It's possible that there are parents and players who believe that such a team is right for them for any number of reasons that don't need to make sense to any of us, too.

I just don't understand why everyone is so obsessed with going on and on about this. Really, it's not worth the effort.

[Saucey]

3 minutes ago, Lifelongbender said:

I agree with @Saucey on this one.

What I don't understand is why we are all, yet again, frothing at the mouth about a team calling itself AAA in our area. We all understand that there aren't too many real AAA players in this area, and we all understand that the team(s) in question probably aren't really AAA level. Unfortunately there are people who are either willing to pay for an additional 'A', in which case it's their wasted money, or people who fall for the hype regarding such teams, in which case they should have done more research. It's possible that there are parents and players who believe that such a team is right for them for any number of reasons that don't need to make sense to any of us, too.

I just don't understand why everyone is so obsessed with going on and on about this. Really, it's not worth the effort.

Someone claiming to be new asked. I am tired of the argument, too. Maybe someone who has a kid playing one of these AAA teams who wants to convince everyone their A is legit and worthwhile. ?‍♂️ There is a new crop of crazy Squirt parents every year, after all.

I don't care much either at this point. Returning a former AAA player into PAHL who was on one of those teams, with few exceptions in my experience, is usually a terrible experience.  The player is usually just a terd and a morale black hole in how they treat all the lowly PAHL players who are significantly less talented than them anyway. Good they have a home to lord it over everyone else.

[hockeyisgreat]

OK so maybe the question I should be asking is who would you take your kid to for an assessment as to if they are AAA talent?  How many real AAA teams are there in Western Pa as opposed to how many declare AAA?  Do all of the AAA teams in Western PA have at least a few AAA kids?  At what age should AAA be important?  It looks like My Hockey Rankings don't separate Tier 1 & II till 14U. Are all those teams that are AAA under 14U just adding an A?

[BeaverFalls]

Way too much over classifying from top to bottom. With the rarest exceptions, in reality, most every player in Western Pa is categorized a level above the actual skill of play. 

[hockeyisgreat]

4 minutes ago, BeaverFalls said:

Way too much over classifying from top to bottom. With the rarest exceptions, in reality, most every player in Western Pa is categorized a level above the actual skill of play. 

Wow!  So you are saying there are maybe only a handful of true AAA players in Western PA?  At all age groups?   Seems the Pens Elite and sometimes Esmark Stars are competing on a National level pretty often.

[BeaverFalls]

22 minutes ago, hockeyisgreat said:

Wow!  So you are saying there are maybe only a handful of true AAA players in Western PA?  At all age groups?   Seems the Pens Elite and sometimes Esmark Stars are competing on a National level pretty often.

Yes I am.

[Saucey]

1 hour ago, hockeyisgreat said:

OK so maybe the question I should be asking is who would you take your kid to for an assessment as to if they are AAA talent?  How many real AAA teams are there in Western Pa as opposed to how many declare AAA?  Do all of the AAA teams in Western PA have at least a few AAA kids?  At what age should AAA be important?  It looks like My Hockey Rankings don't separate Tier 1 & II till 14U. Are all those teams that are AAA under 14U just adding an A?

Is your kid dominating AA? Start there. Has someone without lessons to offer and a AAA program suggested you take your kid to a Pens Elite tryout or work with someone who trains those players?

No? Your kid is fine where he is.

[hockeyisgreat]

Thanks for the input guys! Would it be safe to say that we would be wasting our time and money in AAA for anybody but Pens Elite and possibly Esmark?  These Faux AAA teams aren't going to help you get exposed to College Coaches?  Is there any other way to get exposed to College Coaches?  Any idea how many kids out of Western Pa get College Hockey Scholarships? Someone should keep stats on that. I know football and wrestling in Western PA seem to do pretty good in advancing kids to D-1 & D-2 programs with some type of Scholarship.