Make your own decision based on factual data

[sadday4hockey]

https://www.health.pa.gov/topics/HealthStatistics/VitalStatistics/DeathStatistics/Documents/Death_Projections.aspx

 

People ARE going die, with or without Covid. It sucks, but it's not something that is new to anyone.

Allegheny county is reporting 34 new deaths today and they want that number to provide shock and awe. But if you dig down you will find more exact details and they should NOT be surprising because people over 80 die on a regular basis and in this case 28/34 were over 80 80. That's 82% of those 34. Add in the 4 in their 70's and its 94%.

 

The Allegheny County Health Department reported Wednesday that 34 new deaths related to COVID-19 were reported to the state’s Electronic Death Reporting System.

The dates of the deaths ranged from Nov. 20 to Dec. 8. One person was in their 40s, one in their 50s, four people in their 70s, 16 in their 80s and 12 people in their 90s. Nineteen deaths were associated with long-term care facilities, the county reported.

 

 

[Quinlan2020a]

Who here agrees that most of those people in their 70's & 80's were likely to die within the next decade anyway, so what does it matter if they just die now instead?

[Lifelongbender]

2 minutes ago, Quinlan2020a said:

Who here agrees that most of those people in their 70's & 80's were likely to die within the next decade anyway, so what does it matter if they just die now instead?

Wow. What an asshole way to respond to this.

I get that you're trying to make a point. I get that plenty of posters here have been really nasty to you, and each other. But this isn't any way to promote positive discussion or reasonable debate. You've managed to lower yourself to the old King's level. Good on you.

[sadday4hockey]

He's trying to be satirical but obviously struggles in that department as well. 

[Saucey]

I'm dreaming of adult discussion...that doesn't involve name calling or COVID 19. I miss hockey....and slamming PPE. .and arguing whose squirt is going pro....

[nemesis8679]

10 hours ago, sadday4hockey said:

https://www.health.pa.gov/topics/HealthStatistics/VitalStatistics/DeathStatistics/Documents/Death_Projections.aspx

 

People ARE going die, with or without Covid. It sucks, but it's not something that is new to anyone.

Allegheny county is reporting 34 new deaths today and they want that number to provide shock and awe. But if you dig down you will find more exact details and they should NOT be surprising because people over 80 die on a regular basis and in this case 28/34 were over 80 80. That's 82% of those 34. Add in the 4 in their 70's and its 94%.

 

The Allegheny County Health Department reported Wednesday that 34 new deaths related to COVID-19 were reported to the state’s Electronic Death Reporting System.

The dates of the deaths ranged from Nov. 20 to Dec. 8. One person was in their 40s, one in their 50s, four people in their 70s, 16 in their 80s and 12 people in their 90s. Nineteen deaths were associated with long-term care facilities, the county reported.

 

 

So if an 80 year-old grandpap dies of covid, well then F him. Doesn't matter that maybe he could have lived another 1, 2, 10+ years if he didn't die from having covid, right? He's OLD. Not worth much of anything other than depleting social security, right? I mean, they're in nursing homes, amiright? What good are they? I'm sick of them old people standing in the way of my going on my fancy night out to Olive Garden. Their lives are a small price to pay so I can go to the barber and get my crew cut/fade. And don't get me started on not being able to sit at the bar and do karaoke on Saturday. I'm sick of these old people dying and ruining my self-entitled life. 

 

That's how you sound. 

What a dumbass, ignorant way to think. 

Edited December 10, 2020 by nemesis8679

[Eddie Shore]

8 hours ago, nemesis8679 said:

And don't get me started on not being able to sit at the bar and do karaoke on Saturday. I'm sick of these old people dying and ruining my self-entitled life. 

That's how you sound. 

What a dumbass, ignorant way 

Yea, f!$&k all of us who lost our jobs at those bars, lost our homes now etc...

That’s how YOU SOUND

What a dumbass, ingnorant way for YOU to think!

Edited December 10, 2020 by Eddie Shore

[HereWithPopcorn]

47 minutes ago, Eddie Shore said:

Yea, f!$&k all of us who lost our jobs at those bars, lost our homes now etc...

That’s how YOU SOUND

What a dumbass, ingnorant way for YOU to think!

It's not that anyone wishes that older people die, but I'm pretty sure if you asked the seniors of that age and older, that lived through WWII, gas shortages and maybe even the Depression, I'm pretty certain that the vast majority would want people to live their lives as well and not have all of these closures.

Plus, when things were barely open back in April/May, places like Home Depot and other stores were full of elderly people who were out and about.  If they were that scared or felt that the world needed bubble wrapped, they would have stayed home.

[Eddie Shore]

23 minutes ago, HereWithPopcorn said:

It's not that anyone wishes that older people die, but I'm pretty sure if you asked the seniors of that age and older, that lived through WWII, gas shortages and maybe even the Depression, I'm pretty certain that the vast majority would want people to live their lives as well and not have all of these closures.

Plus, when things were barely open back in April/May, places like Home Depot and other stores were full of elderly people who were out and about.  If they were that scared or felt that the world needed bubble wrapped, they would have stayed home.

??????????????

I don't even know how to respond to this!  Where did I say anything about old people?????

Please re-read your post and my quote you put in it, and tell me how the two are even closely related (you know senior citizens don't work in bars or restaurants right) 

WOW

Edited December 10, 2020 by Eddie Shore

[Quinlan2020a]

1 hour ago, HereWithPopcorn said:

It's not that anyone wishes that older people die, but I'm pretty sure if you asked the seniors of that age and older, that lived through WWII, gas shortages and maybe even the Depression, I'm pretty certain that the vast majority would want people to live their lives as well and not have all of these closures.

Plus, when things were barely open back in April/May, places like Home Depot and other stores were full of elderly people who were out and about.  If they were that scared or felt that the world needed bubble wrapped, they would have stayed home.

You are definitely correct about how most of the older people that I know feel. The health care workers wish people would modify their lifestyle a bit. Otherwise, they are the ones stuck in a horrible situation where they have to care for the sick with limited resources. They become over-worked, over-stressed & and they face more danger to themselves and their families. Restrictions are like chemo. Sometimes the patient dies, but the patient probably has no chance without it. Enforcing any restrictions now will be tough without any $ for those that will not be able to work or operate their businesses. I don't see how we can ask people to live without an income. The worst part about shutting down hockey is that the many people employed at the rinks will suffer. It's also hard to convince people to abide by restrictions when we don't even know if they will be effective. I get that. This is a complicated issue that has good arguments on both sides. The thing that I can't understand is how too many people just refuse to do the common sense things like wear masks & stop gathering. The big Halloween parties in my neighborhood were just ridiculous. Too many people just need to grow up.

[Lifelongbender]

18 minutes ago, Quinlan2020a said:

You are definitely correct about how most of the older people that I know feel. The health care workers wish people would modify their lifestyle a bit. Otherwise, they are the ones stuck in a horrible situation where they have to care for the sick with limited resources. They become over-worked, over-stressed & and they face more danger to themselves and their families. Restrictions are like chemo. Sometimes the patient dies, but the patient probably has no chance without it. Enforcing any restrictions now will be tough without any $ for those that will not be able to work or operate their businesses. I don't see how we can ask people to live without an income. The worst part about shutting down hockey is that the many people employed at the rinks will suffer. It's also hard to convince people to abide by restrictions when we don't even know if they will be effective. I get that. This is a complicated issue that has good arguments on both sides. The thing that I can't understand is how too many people just refuse to do the common sense things like wear masks & stop gathering. The big Halloween parties in my neighborhood were just ridiculous. Too many people just need to grow up.

Now this is a reasonable response.

I understand your take on what the science is on masks, but for many people the continuous give and take of "masks work" followed by "masks don't work" that drives our daily news cycles is probably very confusing. A person could be forgiven for not really knowing what to think about masks given that give and take. And, for that matter, about shutdowns of schools and the like (read, for instance, the Great Barrington Declaration). It is not at all the case that there aren't reputable scientists and health professionals who disagree with shutdowns, or mandatory mask wearing. While it may be true that the majority, or a plurality, of professionals agree on these things (though I don't know how we would determine the validity of that specific claim, because nobody can agree on who is responsible among journalists, either), it's not the case that any of the measures being taken are settled science, or make cost/benefit analysis sense, either. You don't get to cite scientists that agree with you without also recognizing that scientists exist who have opposing viewpoints - if a scientist is only credible because he agrees with you, or with the majority, your case is already lost. You disagree with science based upon the merit of their actual data, not upon some sort of Nielson rating system.

Personally, I don't know if masking works. I have read a huge amount of writing online by scientists on both sides of this issue, but as I have written elsewhere on this site, I think that mask wearing is a small price to pay to get them to permit our kids to play hockey. You were right when you said "It's also hard to convince people to abide by restrictions when we don't even know if they will be effective. I get that. This is a complicated issue that has good arguments on both sides." However, there are a number of people who do not agree that either masking or stopping of gatherings is common sense. While it may be that these steps are our best bet at slowing the spread of the virus, there are many people who seem to think that restricting gatherings in order to slow the spread, in particular, isn't worth the cost to society. I'm not sure, myself, what the right answer to this question is, other than to say that it seems to me that the government telling you that you can't have cousins over for Christmas is fundamentally problematic. To me, these sorts of gatherings in particular are not a public health risk in the way that a concert would be.

All of these things are the sorts of things that are supposed to be open to healthy discussion in our society. It's my fear that nothing like open discussion has occurred on either of these topics at any level at any time. It certainly has never occurred here.

Which I wish was because we are a hockey board. But nothing like discussions of hockey has occurred here in months, either.

[HSFBLJ]

I'm with Saucey, let's get back to taling about the kid who once scored 52 goals while attending mite jamboree's.  You know things that actually matter!

[dropthepuck]

That kid is on a Minor B team now

[nemesis8679]

33 minutes ago, dropthepuck said:

That kid is on a Minor B team now

Sad part is that I catch myself thinking that kid really exists. 

[nemesis8679]

7 hours ago, Eddie Shore said:

Yea, f!$&k all of us who lost our jobs at those bars, lost our homes now etc...

That’s how YOU SOUND

What a dumbass, ingnorant way for YOU to think!

No, not at all. I feel deeply bad for anyone who has been monetarily affected by this. But that's not the fault of shutdowns or limited capacities. It's the fault of your federal government that is not willing to help those people. 

That is where the anger needs to be placed. 

Look at how every other country has helped its citizens, and how little help has been given here to the people. It's a good example of how the United States has a long way to go. 

[Eddie Shore]

10 minutes ago, nemesis8679 said:

No, not at all. I feel deeply bad for anyone who has been monetarily affected by this. But that's not the fault of shutdowns or limited capacities. It's the fault of your federal government that is not willing to help those people. 

That is where the anger needs to be placed. 

Look at how every other country has helped its citizens, and how little help has been given here to the people. It's a good example of how the United States has a long way to go. 

It's not the fault of the shutdowns?  WHO instituted the shutdowns?

So I should not be mad at the government for arbitrarily deciding what types of businesses can stay open and what types have to close, but i should be mad at them for not "helping" me?  What kind of "help" do you think I need, welfare?  If they want to help me, let me open back up.  

Do you even realize how this sounds to me?  Talk about tone deaf.  

[fafa fohi]

5 minutes ago, Eddie Shore said:

It's not the fault of the shutdowns?  WHO instituted the shutdowns?

So I should not be mad at the government for arbitrarily deciding what types of businesses can stay open and what types have to close, but i should be mad at them for not "helping" me?  What kind of "help" do you think I need, welfare?  If they want to help me, let me open back up.  

Do you even realize how this sounds to me?  Talk about tone deaf.  

I am curious, what type of business do you own that is in fact shut down and no longer operating due to the restrictions?

[Eddie Shore]

I owned a restaurant/bar.  Small local family type.  Sunk my life savings into it (not in Pittsburgh).  Had to let my staff (small staff 11 total) go back around the beginning of June.  Couldn't pay the rent on the building or the lease on some of my equipment.  Not a big "take out" business so i couldn't keep it afloat.  Lost my employees (I feel the worst for them) a couple of single mom types (lots of tears and crying).  A young kid who washed dishes, had been in trouble with the law a few times but was trying to turn his life around and support his kid.  Heard he went back to dealing in July, got busted and is doing time now.  Plus a couple of others, but heard some are doing ok.

Lost my lease in the shopping center (I'll never get that back).  The equipment rentals are no big deal. 

Biggest loss is the customers, even if I could get a loan to start up, They'll never be back.  Will take years to build up a new customer base, credit rating (that's destroyed too).  Couldn't afford our rent on the place we lived.  Wife and one kid (other is grown and gone), moved in with her parents in Calif.  No way i am going there, no work at all.  I have moved into a room over my sisters garage down south.  No way i can open a new business.  Looked into maybe a restaurant manger role (did that for years before i went out on my own), but no one is hiring now.  

So tell me, how if the federal government going to help us?  Cut me check every week?  I don't want that, I want my life back

[fafa fohi]

18 minutes ago, Eddie Shore said:

I owned a restaurant/bar.  Small local family type.  Sunk my life savings into it (not in Pittsburgh).  Had to let my staff (small staff 11 total) go back around the beginning of June.  Couldn't pay the rent on the building or the lease on some of my equipment.  Not a big "take out" business so i couldn't keep it afloat.  Lost my employees (I feel the worst for them) a couple of single mom types (lots of tears and crying).  A young kid who washed dishes, had been in trouble with the law a few times but was trying to turn his life around and support his kid.  Heard he went back to dealing in July, got busted and is doing time now.  Plus a couple of others, but heard some are doing ok.

Lost my lease in the shopping center (I'll never get that back).  The equipment rentals are no big deal. 

Biggest loss is the customers, even if I could get a loan to start up, They'll never be back.  Will take years to build up a new customer base, credit rating (that's destroyed too).  Couldn't afford our rent on the place we lived.  Wife and one kid (other is grown and gone), moved in with her parents in Calif.  No way i am going there, no work at all.  I have moved into a room over my sisters garage down south.  No way i can open a new business.  Looked into maybe a restaurant manger role (did that for years before i went out on my own), but no one is hiring now.  

So tell me, how if the federal government going to help us?  Cut me check every week?  I don't want that, I want my life back

I am sorry for what happened to you - it's quite sad.  I know this thread is supposed to be about hockey, but your story is compelling.  Were you ever granted access to any small business or PPP federal government loans?

[Eddie Shore]

15 minutes ago, fafa fohi said:

I am sorry for what happened to you - it's quite sad.  I know this thread is supposed to be about hockey, but your story is compelling.  Were you ever granted access to any small business or PPP federal government loans?

Thanks, I know you and me don’t see eye to eye on this, but thanks.  There would/may be some stuff available in the future but getting another business loan to start up a business now is just not a good idea right now, plus my heart really isn’t in it anymore.  
My only real ask for some people on here is just think before they make comments like “shut down the bars, because this is something that is “not needed”.  Yes, the people who go to the bar can still get together with their friends to watch the game and drink at home.  The people who made their living serving those folks are the ones who suffer.  

I just don’t like the government or other people deciding what businesses should and shouldn’t be allowed to open.  That is the scary part.  

Warning, you could be next.

[Quinlan2020a]

7 minutes ago, Eddie Shore said:

Thanks, I know you and me don’t see eye to eye on this, but thanks.  There would/may be some stuff available in the future but getting another business loan to start up a business now is just not a good idea right now, plus my heart really isn’t in it anymore.  
My only real ask for some people on here is just think before they make comments like “shut down the bars, because this is something that is “not needed”.  Yes, the people who go to the bar can still get together with their friends to watch the game and drink at home.  The people who made their living serving those folks are the ones who suffer.  

I just don’t like the government or other people deciding what businesses should and shouldn’t be allowed to open.  That is the scary part.  

Warning, you could be next.

I know that you despise me, but I hate to see the suffering that you outlined. This isn't fair at all. If this was D-day you would be one of the ones on the first landing crafts headed toward the beach. I can't say I know how you feel, My world has been adversely affected, but not nearly to the degree of many.

[fafa fohi]

18 minutes ago, Eddie Shore said:

Thanks, I know you and me don’t see eye to eye on this, but thanks.  There would/may be some stuff available in the future but getting another business loan to start up a business now is just not a good idea right now, plus my heart really isn’t in it anymore.  
My only real ask for some people on here is just think before they make comments like “shut down the bars, because this is something that is “not needed”.  Yes, the people who go to the bar can still get together with their friends to watch the game and drink at home.  The people who made their living serving those folks are the ones who suffer.  

I just don’t like the government or other people deciding what businesses should and shouldn’t be allowed to open.  That is the scary part.  

Warning, you could be next.

My heart goes out to you and those that lost their businesses or jobs.  That’s brutal and yes we may have differing opinions on some things however we are alike in sharing a similar distaste for how things have been handled.

As an FYI I received a stimulus check ( debit card ) that frankly I did not need, so I used it for takeout to support local restaurants and retailers.  Millions of dollars were sent out to people like me with no discretion while PPP loans were granted to business that didn’t need the help.

[nemesis8679]

Eddie Shore, I'm truly sorry you went/are going through that. I really am. We don't agree on some things, and that's fine. Just because I think on one hand that some businesses couldn't just stay open and be business as usual, because it would have been a disaster- I don't think that those affected should've been left to just hang out to dry, either. You can call it "welfare" or whatever you want, but something should've been done to prevent people from losing everything. What it may have been, it should've been figured out. 

FWIW, I too received an unneeded stimulus check, which I spent much of it on takeout and generous tips. 

[waltergogs]

It's true that death is a natural part of life, and COVID-19 has definitely brought this reality to the forefront. Looking at the stats from Allegheny County, it's interesting how the numbers break down. The focus on shock value can sometimes overshadow the actual details. I took a closer look and found that a significant majority of the reported deaths were individuals over 80, with a good chunk in their 70s too. I appreciate that the Allegheny County Health Department is keeping us informed, but it's also up to us to think critically and make sense of the numbers. In a way, it's like making decisions based on a coin flipper, but with more information at hand. And yes, long-term care facilities unfortunately continue to be a vulnerable spot.

Edited August 16, 2023 by waltergogs