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Huskies and Preds 18U #$%@ Show


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2 hours ago, BeaverFalls said:

16u and above is a shit show in general. 

The prior worst experience I had was I believe in 14u.  Also happened at PICE at LONG time ago when two very "veteran" referees let a 13 & 14 year old brawl ensue after a blow out game where Altoona was still trying to score with 1 second left on the clock.  The "vets" just stood there and let the young kids have at it.  A parent yelled from the stands and told them to go break up the brawl instead of standing at the scorers booth and chatting, and instead they threw out that parent who was trying to protect the kids!!  Zero class from Altoona.  The coaches almost fought on ice in that one post game. 

It is a shit show all around.

 

Edited by Wes
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I don’t think they report most PAHL games like they do for PIHL. They enter them in whatever that app is called (drawing a blank) and don’t do box scores etc likely because PIHL clock operators/scorekeepers are paid employees and PAHL employs anybody’s parent that is okay with freezing their butt off for 90 minutes. 
I will say that I am of the opinion that local high school varsity and PAHL AA 16/18 should have a 3 official system for each game. But that increases fees to organizations to pay one more official. Even though linesmen don’t call minor penalties except for too many players it would be useful for the referee to have two linesmen to watch scrums/make sure all of the players who committed infractions are kept track of and break stuff up. 

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16 hours ago, Racchi’s Rug said:

I don’t think they report most PAHL games like they do for PIHL. They enter them in whatever that app is called (drawing a blank) and don’t do box scores etc likely because PIHL clock operators/scorekeepers are paid employees and PAHL employs anybody’s parent that is okay with freezing their butt off for 90 minutes. 
I will say that I am of the opinion that local high school varsity and PAHL AA 16/18 should have a 3 official system for each game. But that increases fees to organizations to pay one more official. Even though linesmen don’t call minor penalties except for too many players it would be useful for the referee to have two linesmen to watch scrums/make sure all of the players who committed infractions are kept track of and break stuff up. 

The PAHL games are entered online into SportsEngine (post game) by the manager of the home team.

 

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This is an example of why I retired. I witnessed this (the officiating, the players lack of respect for each other, the belligerent coaches, and in general the parents)  way too many times over the years across six districts and a couple Canadian provinces.

If I'm calling it here is what I would have:

First of all, there would have been a bench minor and then maybe someone tossed from the Huskies bench log before the altercation. You simply do not get to act that way from the bench in a game I'm skating. You respect me and I respect you... you don't and you get to leave and call me bad names in the lobby.

As for the altercation itself I would have: 

Preds - boarding 2+10, three players get fighting 5+G, every player in the pile gets an unsportsmanlike minor

Huskies - two players get high stick\head contact 2+10, three players get fighting 5+G, every player in the pile gets an unsportsmanlike minor

One of the two Huskies players that started the mess with the high sticks was fighting would get assessed second GM for 5 penalties. the other I cannot tell exactly where he is in the pile.

End result is both teams down a full line for the rest of the game, everyone yells at me and calls me rude names, says my calls were wrong or too tough (on their team). Finally, nobody makes their own players\coaches take responsibility for their actions. Thus another reason that I hung up the stripes.

 

Nomex undies in place - flame away!

Edited by GrumpyOldPucker
had to define what I meant by " witnessed this"
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1 hour ago, GrumpyOldPucker said:

This is an example of why I retired. I witnessed this (the officiating, the players lack of respect for each other, the belligerent coaches, and in general the parents)  way too many times over the years across six districts and a couple Canadian provinces.

If I'm calling it here is what I would have:

First of all, there would have been a bench minor and then maybe someone tossed from the Huskies bench log before the altercation. You simply do not get to act that way from the bench in a game I'm skating. You respect me and I respect you... you don't and you get to leave and call me bad names in the lobby.

As for the altercation itself I would have: 

Preds - boarding 2+10, three players get fighting 5+G, every player in the pile gets an unsportsmanlike minor

Huskies - two players get high stick\head contact 2+10, three players get fighting 5+G, every player in the pile gets an unsportsmanlike minor

One of the two Huskies players that started the mess with the high sticks was fighting would get assessed second GM for 5 penalties. the other I cannot tell exactly where he is in the pile.

End result is both teams down a full line for the rest of the game, everyone yells at me and calls me rude names, says my calls were wrong or too tough (on their team). Finally, nobody makes their own players\coaches take responsibility for their actions. Thus another reason that I hung up the stripes.

 

Nomex undies in place - flame away!

 

Fair enough. 

My only question, if you were on the ice, do you think you would have come up with the same penalties?

I lied, second question, does the kid who got boarded get an unsportsmanlike minor?

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Having been there done that too many times over the years, I gotta say "maybe" and "it depends"..... How's that for a committed answer. I went back and watched the whole game and I zoomed in a lot on the contact that started the altercation. I have my doubts, but I would still call a penalty for boarding.  I can also see someone not calling it. The Huskie player bent over and tried to duck as the Pred player lined him up. He got tangled with the Pred player who rode him in. I couldn't decide after multiple replays if I thought he just rode him in, or pushed\guided him too. On the Ice you get one look at it so my location on the ice would affect how I saw the play. That said, the huskie players own action (ducking) put him in a position to go into the boards the way he did. If he remains heads up with the Pred player then we are not having this conversation. If the Pred player throws a hip check we are not having this conversation. The Huskie player also got up and immediately started throwing hands at the Pred player. Obviously it's easier to see it all from above, especially on video where you can rewind and zoom.  


As for what I think I would have been able to see to call if I were on the ice ... I will say that when you are elbows deep breaking up those piles you are mainly concerned with safety (yours and the players). Your main goal is to separate the combatants (while not stepping or falling on anyone and not getting punched or stepped on yourself). You have to have a plan and pretty cool head to separate them AND get the numbers of all of the combatants. 

From my experience, I would likely have the initial call(s) (maybe) boarding, the retaliation of player that got hit for roughing\retaliation  and the two players coming in with the high sticks. Once the scrum got rolling. At minimum I would have fighting majors on the two players in my immediate grasp. As I saw a lot of haymakers flying, I want the ones that are aggressively throwing the punches to get the fighting penalties. I would do my best to get the numbers of any other players aggressively throwing punches. The players thrashing around\wrestling\etc on the ice would likely get unsportsmanlike or maybe roughing penalties so they don't get a pass on taking part in the stupidity. The two that got into it to the left away from the pile definitely threw punches, but they could easily go un-noticed since both officials were trying to untangle that pile. On my second review I saw that an official did see and ultimately separate them. If it was me they get the fighting penalty.....


Really thought provoking question. Until you've been up to your ass in alligators you just don't know what it's like and it really is hard to describe the experience. Did I mention that you might just have a bit of tunnel vision - especially if it's your first rodeo. The feeling can be sheer panic or surreal slow motion... 

Oh and after watching the whole game I see why this turned into the powder keg it did. This is rec league hockey for crying out loud. I hope that the officials and the coaches go back and review their performances and behavior in this with a unbiased eye.... just maybe they will learn something to take forward. 

Here's a couple hints:

Hey REF - you are only as good as your next call. Make it a good one, eventually people will remember and respect you for all those previous good calls. But never forget that you can still blow it all with your next call.

Hey Coach - the players feed off of your energy be it positive or negative... You have more control than you think you do.

Hey Everybody - Above all, be humble because it's not about you its about respecting the game!

Edited by GrumpyOldPucker
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The game was out of hand way before the brawl with 2:30 left.

Halfway through the second period it was 42-2 in PIM and you could feel the anger building from the Huskies Parents (due to the lack of calls on preds and excessive calls on Huskies), the tension building in the players and the coaches.  I've been to a thousand youth hockey games and I've never witnessed a game where the PIM were like this 20 minutes into a game, where 99% of the calls were against 1 team.  All those calls were made by the ONE ref.

It wasn't until one of the Huskies coaches (not the HC) chirped the younger ref about all the penalties going one way, that the OLDER ref chimed in and called a few on the Preds the last few minutes of the second.  That coach got a 2 min. unsportsman like penalty but it obviously woke up the older ref and he called a few so the scoresheet wouldn't look so bad.

The fact of the matter there was something going on there with the younger ref and the Huskies.  

Right before the brawl the penalties were around 60-10.

When a ref singlehandedly calls 55+ of the 60 PIM and only ~4 PIM on the other team, it's going to cause hostility no matter what.  No way to avoid that.  Everyone on the one team is going to be boiling.

And at that point the players already know they've lost their FPP plus lost another FPP point, so who cares anymore about taking penalties.

 

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I was never a fan of the change of the rules to make all the aggressive fouls 2+10. Over the years USAH took a lot of the tools to manage the game out of the officials hands and replaced them with a sledge hammer. I can remember when you could use double minors and stand alone majors to manage and control the game (problem was too few officials had the balls to call the doubles and the majors). Think about it, what's more of a deterrent 1) do a guy dirty, get a double or stand alone major, maybe give up 2 or 3 goals during the PP and then have to keep playing and maybe face retribution later in the game, or 2) do a guy dirty get a 2+10  or major and a game sit out most of or all of the game and not have to worry about any retribution until the next time you play them (if at all). The penalty minute totals are inflated because of mandatory 2+10, you can take 30 minutes off that 42 for the additional misconducts forced by rule. Can't help a player that runs his mouth at a ref and get a dime, that's on him for not having self control - and I don't buy it that they should be excused because they were frustrated with the lopsided calls. Life ain't fair get over it!  You do that in the real world there are consequenses..... at least their used to be... That's a discussion for a different time. And, you cannot tell me you've never had to just shut up and overcome someone's incompetency to succeed? 

As for the FPP... noble notion, but it sets up the officials to fail. You call 2+10 and then you hear noise from the bench because of FPP so some officials downplay the call to roughing or something that doesn't carry the added 10 and hear it from the other bench. OR, you get an official that calls it legit to the rules and its a non stop shitstorm from the benches "the call was good but that damn 10 kills the FPP. Can't you just make it a minor"? (and that is with a competent official because the coaches are more concerned with that damn FPP than they are teaching their players how to adapt their game to the way it's getting called). So, let's leave the FPP and penalty minute totals out of this.... We agree that it's stupid and has probably hurt more than helped.

Like I said, I watched the whole game, and I DO NOT DISAGREE that there were were missed calls that would have definitely kept the lid on this one. They had the opportunity to set the tone not even a minute in if they called the Preds knee on knee hit in the neutral zone. Then it moves on to making the next call, and the next after that. I'm not gonna discuss the merits of each call or non-call. Suffice to say that IMHO there were missed calls, there are a couple calls that I disagree with, and a couple others that I need to know what was said to earn the unsportsmanlike penalty. I was not on the ice, and I had the benefit of watching from above on video... It's a whole lot easier to see it from the stands, the bench, or the eye in the sky than is is from the middle of play. Do the officials need more seasoning... to that question I say you NEVER stop learning. You should be able to take something from every game you skate that will make you better. Every time I presided over a gong show it bugged me until I sat down and mentally reviewed the game for what I missed or could have handled differently. I've come across too many of the arrogant new breed of officials that don't take responsibility for their role in how the game plays out. Another reason I hung them up.... but I digress

Should the huskies be upset at the calls or lack of calls? Definitely... Just like the Preds are happy they got away with the ones they got away with. It's human nature, but you can only control what you can control. You control your own emotions. You control how you execute on the ice. You cannot control what is called or not called, and I guarantee that the more you bitch and yell the worse you make it for yourself and your team. No way I'm excusing the officials, but the thing is, the Huskies were never really out of this game. The players and coaches focused on the calls\lack of calls instead of taking care of business.

I seem to remember the Pens opted to win a cup instead of chasing down Adam Graves for breaking Mario's hand with a tomahawk slash. And I also remember them losing a lot of games vs the Flyers cuz they lost their shit instead of playing the game.

If I could make one change across USA hockey, I would mandate that all teams that are not Tier 1 or Tier 2 national bound, or HS varsity would play NON-CHECKING. Still teach the checking and body contact, but take the hits out of the rec\house level games and much of this discussion might go away..... No FPP, in that world, if a player gets called for an aggressive foul then the deserver to sit for 12 minutes and think about what they did to get called. On that note, the attitude when a call is made needs to change from "bullshit, I didn't do that", to "what was it I did to make it look like I did that"? It's called adjusting your game to the way the current game is being called because the ref is probably not gonna adjust to how you wanna play.

 

I could be on my soapbox on this stuff for hours..... Some will agree with me and some will disagree. In the end it's still just me talking about my opinions as a player, coach, and ref shaded by my training and experiences. What you get from it is up to you.

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7 hours ago, Wes said:

The game was out of hand way before the brawl with 2:30 left.

Halfway through the second period it was 42-2 in PIM and you could feel the anger building from the Huskies Parents (due to the lack of calls on preds and excessive calls on Huskies), the tension building in the players and the coaches. ........

 

If I had to pick a point where I thought the game turned south on these two refs it would be on the second head contact penalty in the second period. Big kid hit small kid. Law of tonnage wins in a collision, but from the cameral angle I saw, I question head contact. That seemed to be the point where the Huskies became more focused on the Ref calls than playing the game.  I want to know more about what the huskie kid that got the gate at the end of the first said. His actions in the box deserved getting tossed, but what did he say on the ice to get put in there? IMHO, That one is the one that lit the fuse....

Like I said, not absolving anyone, just breaking it down with an unbiased eye.

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15 hours ago, GrumpyOldPucker said:

If I had to pick a point where I thought the game turned south on these two refs it would be on the second head contact penalty in the second period. Big kid hit small kid. Law of tonnage wins in a collision, but from the cameral angle I saw, I question head contact. That seemed to be the point where the Huskies became more focused on the Ref calls than playing the game.  I want to know more about what the huskie kid that got the gate at the end of the first said. His actions in the box deserved getting tossed, but what did he say on the ice to get put in there? IMHO, That one is the one that lit the fuse....

Like I said, not absolving anyone, just breaking it down with an unbiased eye.

#11 was slashed in the hand/fingers late in the 1st period in the corner.

He pulled off his glove and was bleeding.  The ref came over to him and he said something to the effect "they fucking slashed and cut my finger".  Ref gives him a 2.  Kid goes to PB and says to the ref something close to "why am I going to the PB, they fucking cut my finger?".  Ref gives him a GM.

I heard it, I was there.  I've never heard a 2 minute let alone GM called when someone was injured and bleeding, but this started the dominos of 2 & 10's that the younger ref was handing out.  It was a disgrace.

 

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16 hours ago, GrumpyOldPucker said:

I was never a fan of the change of the rules to make all the aggressive fouls 2+10. Over the years USAH took a lot of the tools to manage the game out of the officials hands and replaced them with a sledge hammer. I can remember when you could use double minors and stand alone majors to manage and control the game (problem was too few officials had the balls to call the doubles and the majors). Think about it, what's more of a deterrent 1) do a guy dirty, get a double or stand alone major, maybe give up 2 or 3 goals during the PP and then have to keep playing and maybe face retribution later in the game, or 2) do a guy dirty get a 2+10  or major and a game sit out most of or all of the game and not have to worry about any retribution until the next time you play them (if at all). The penalty minute totals are inflated because of mandatory 2+10, you can take 30 minutes off that 42 for the additional misconducts forced by rule. Can't help a player that runs his mouth at a ref and get a dime, that's on him for not having self control - and I don't buy it that they should be excused because they were frustrated with the lopsided calls. Life ain't fair get over it!  You do that in the real world there are consequenses..... at least their used to be... That's a discussion for a different time. And, you cannot tell me you've never had to just shut up and overcome someone's incompetency to succeed? 

You make a lot of good points here.  Especially with the jump right to 2 & 10's as opposed to 2x2 min penalties.  

16 minutes in PIM limit for FPP is ridiculous at 16uAA let alone 18uAA.  Hockey is so fast and aggressive at that level.

2 months left of the PAHL.  Thank God, and good riddance.

=

So Grumpy, given that the younger guy called literally 95% of the calls on the Huskies and many were questionable, is there EVER any evaluation for referees that will review this sort of a game and help them to fix their game?  From the team perspective there NEVER seems to be any punishment to refs for blowing up a game like this.

The officiating this year at 18uAA has been ALL OVER THE PLACE.

in one prior game a week or 2 back, literally every scrum was a 2 on both players. in other games, its a no call or take one kid.  

I just don't see any consistency among refs.

 

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Yesterday at Alpha Ice after a 16U AA game a couple of players started mixing it up. One of the refs skated in to separate the two and one player fell over. Parent called the police. 

The police came to the rink and after the first period of the next game they opened up the doors behind the goal and had a lengthy discussion with the ref. This is what the world of youth hockey is today. They ref was clearly shaken after this. It took him a few minutes to get back up to speed.  Total bullshit. No win situations anymore for refs.

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29 minutes ago, dropthepuck said:

Yesterday at Alpha Ice after a 16U AA game a couple of players started mixing it up. One of the refs skated in to separate the two and one player fell over. Parent called the police. 

The police came to the rink and after the first period of the next game they opened up the doors behind the goal and had a lengthy discussion with the ref. This is what the world of youth hockey is today. They ref was clearly shaken after this. It took him a few minutes to get back up to speed.  Total bullshit. No win situations anymore for refs.

Are you saying that the parents called the police to report the referee for something? Because a player fell over?

Obviously I didn't see the situation, so I'm taking the description you gave at face value. I'm just trying to understand it.

One thing you said is indisputable - it's a no-win world for referees anymore. I can't imagine why anyone agrees to do it nowadays.

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1 hour ago, dropthepuck said:

Yesterday at Alpha Ice after a 16U AA game a couple of players started mixing it up. One of the refs skated in to separate the two and one player fell over. Parent called the police. 

The police came to the rink and after the first period of the next game they opened up the doors behind the goal and had a lengthy discussion with the ref. This is what the world of youth hockey is today. They ref was clearly shaken after this. It took him a few minutes to get back up to speed.  Total bullshit. No win situations anymore for refs.

Are you sure it was 16U AA?  There were only three games yesterday and I was physically at the end of two.  I also watched the other on LB and didn't notice anything.  Regardless, I guess the main point is that parents are driving refs out of the games.  I know teens who have trained as referees, have done games for younger kids and now refuse to continue because of parents.

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6 minutes ago, BeaverFalls said:

We’re getting to the point where we need to ban spectators due to viral assholeness. 

I have to admit being a little happy when the COVID situation was limiting spectators. As much as I love watching the games myself, it's best for players, coaches, and especially officials when there aren't any.

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1 hour ago, sarampage said:

Are you sure it was 16U AA?  There were only three games yesterday and I was physically at the end of two.  I also watched the other on LB and didn't notice anything.  Regardless, I guess the main point is that parents are driving refs out of the games.  I know teens who have trained as referees, have done games for younger kids and now refuse to continue because of parents.

There was a President’s Day tourney at Alpha this past weekend that had a 16 AA Division.

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I'm calling BS on this.  If the policy came it was to talk to the ref about the players.  No allegations the ref did anything wrong in your post.  Either were not getting the full story or one of the parents embelished on the behavior of the ref.  Honestly I'm surprised the police even came.  Did they question the ref about his behavior or the behavior of the two kids on the ice?  Nothing for the ref to worry about here.  Just good banter for the message board folks.  

Did the ref give both of the players 5 and a game?  If not these things just keep happening.  #cleanitup

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