District playoffs 2021

[Jack Handey]

25 minutes ago, HSFBLJ said:

Mt. Lebo would have been middle of the road in PAHL U16AA this year. 

Hmm.  16u AA is a pretty weak and watered down group.  Mt. Lebo 04s belong at AAA.  Kudos to them for finishing in the top 6 in the district at that.  They would have dominated PAHL (again).

27 minutes ago, HSFBLJ said:

PPE is no more political than any other organization.

This might be the most delusional comment in the history of this message board.

[Theroadtobeerleague]

1 hour ago, HSFBLJ said:

Wait a minute the 06 PPE beat the 06 Vengance?

Based on this tournament PPE is clearly the best option if you live in Pittsburgh.

Mt. Lebo would have been middle of the road in PAHL U16AA this year. 

PPE is no more political than any other organization.

I don't think many kids are leaving for national teams at U15.

  

Lebo 16s are definitely in a pickle. Their 92.69 rating would put them #1 in the nation in AA and well above any other PAHL U16 team, but they went 0-3  at Mid Ams at AAA.  This would lead one to believe that they are 5-6 skaters short of being a legit AAA team. 

[Theroadtobeerleague]

Just now, Theroadtobeerleague said:

Lebo 16s are definitely in a pickle. Their 92.69 rating would put them #1 in the nation in AA and well above any other PAHL U16 team, but they went 0-3  at Mid Ams at AAA.  This would lead one to believe that they are 5-6 skaters short of being a legit AAA team. 

Who said that kids at U15 are leaving for “national” teams? It is indeed true that in New England some 9th and 10th graders switch to prep hockey. 

[Jack Handey]

9 minutes ago, Theroadtobeerleague said:

but they went 0-3  at Mid Ams at AAA.

It's not a pickle.  Mt Lebo was ranked 51 out of 118 tier 1 teams.  Their losses:

#41 (by 1 goal)
#1 (by 4 goals)
#56 (by 2 goals). 

Their showing wasn't all that terrible and someone has to lose.  This result just shows they are solidly in the middle of tier 1 teams.

 

[Theroadtobeerleague]

40 minutes ago, Jack Handey said:

It's not a pickle.  Mt Lebo was ranked 51 out of 118 tier 1 teams.  Their losses:

#41 (by 1 goal)
#1 (by 4 goals)
#56 (by 2 goals). 

Their showing wasn't all that terrible and someone has to lose.  This result just shows they are solidly in the middle of tier 1 teams.

 

Going 0-3 at Mid Ams (obviously a weak district since only 1 team ranked in top 10 and 2 teams ranked in top 22) does not make Lebo a legit AAA team.  It makes them, as a said, a “tweener”, caught been AA and AAA.   If Lebo played a schedule made up top teams this would be more clear.  
they went 2-7-1 vs teams ranked ahead of them.  That’s 10 games played out of 42 vs “better” competition.  At most age groups Pittsburgh can field 1 good AAA and 2-3 mediocre ones, and the delusion is in thinking that being ranked 51st makes a team legit AAA. Most A-A-A leads straight to B-E-E-R 

[BeaverFalls]

So then this discussion begs, is it worth it for AAA or better to dominate in AA at probably substantially less cost/travel. 

Just a question. I have no dog in the fight. I’m sure there are advantages and disadvantages to both. 

[Theroadtobeerleague]

Just now, Theroadtobeerleague said:

Going 0-3 at Mid Ams (obviously a weak district since only 1 team ranked in top 10 and 2 teams ranked in top 22) does not make Lebo a legit AAA team.  It makes them, as a said, a “tweener”, caught been AA and AAA.   If Lebo played a schedule made up top teams this would be more clear.  
they went 2-7-1 vs teams ranked ahead of them.  That’s 10 games played out of 42 vs “better” competition.  At most age groups Pittsburgh can field 1 good AAA and 2-3 mediocre ones, and the delusion is in thinking that being ranked 51st makes a team legit AAA. Most A-A-A leads straight to B-E-E-R 

The reason they are in the “middle” of AAA teams is because there are too many AAA teams.  With almost 120 teams and rosters of 20, thats almost 2,400 AAA players born in 2004? Really?

[Theroadtobeerleague]

31 minutes ago, BeaverFalls said:

So then this discussion begs, is it worth it for AAA or better to dominate in AA at probably substantially less cost/travel. 

Just a question. I have no dog in the fight. I’m sure there are advantages and disadvantages to both. 

A team like Lebo could play an independent AA/AAA schedule but go for a National title at AA, which wouldn’t be easy.  At U14, Lebo went 1-2 at Tier 2 Nationals; since switching to AAA, they are 1-5 at Mid Ams (as U15 and U16). I don’t know anything specific about this team, but would bet that it’s made up 5-6 top kids and 10-12 kids who wouldn’t really be considered AAA players.  That’s true of many teams ranked in the 40s to 60s. 

[aaaahockey]

15 hours ago, champeen said:

as someone who doesn't live in PA, i find it fascinating to see the wildly contradictory takes on PPE.  One person will say they are the only real AAA program around and everyone else is just delusional parents paying for a third A, and then the next guys will say they are overrated and only take players for political reasons and cheat MHR by not reporting games, etc.

I think part of it lies in the differences between their older (think U-16) team and especially a couple of the teams immediately preceding it and the younger teams.  First, two levels exist at the younger teams and the lower of the two is absolutely a joke.  Even at the higher level you get a lot of A chasers and it seems like it isn't til the older levels that it becomes seriously that much better than AA hockey. 

[dropthepuck]

1 hour ago, aaaahockey said:

I think part of it lies in the differences between their older (think U-16) team and especially a couple of the teams immediately preceding it and the younger teams.  First, two levels exist at the younger teams and the lower of the two is absolutely a joke.  Even at the higher level you get a lot of A chasers and it seems like it isn't til the older levels that it becomes seriously that much better than AA hockey. 

I stated several years ago on the old forum site that western PA AAA hockey was the new AA hockey. This is the result of the onset of the gold and black PPE teams. There was always only enough talent to ice one legit AAA team in Pittsburgh. With the politics and nepotism involved at PPE the result was other programs taking advantage of the desire for AAA. And now this is what we have, a bunch of AA teams playing AAA

[champeen]

There are approximately 150 NCAA D1 & D3 programs in the United States.  Why do people seem to think there should only be like 20 AAA teams and if you aren't playing teams in the top 10 you are a sham?  Very good players will and do come out of these "joke" programs.

[dazedandconfused]

[forbin]

1 hour ago, champeen said:

There are approximately 150 NCAA D1 & D3 programs in the United States.  Why do people seem to think there should only be like 20 AAA teams and if you aren't playing teams in the top 10 you are a sham?  Very good players will and do come out of these "joke" programs.

I don't think anyone is arguing the fact that good players can come from anywhere, just that the desire for the third A is watering down what already relatively small talent WPA has at that playing level.

It does suck that PPE has essentially cornered the market and sticks their nose up to any other AAA program in the area. 

[sadday4hockey]

So nice to see that Karma made its way to Columbus at the 18U level. Although, you can rest assured that one of the at large bids was already in hand before the final buzzer even sounded.

[Wes]

3 hours ago, sadday4hockey said:

So nice to see that Karma made its way to Columbus at the 18U level. Although, you can rest assured that one of the at large bids was already in hand before the final buzzer even sounded.

So happy for the CBJ winning 18uAAA. 

You're likely correct about the at large bid probably due to the pull of one PPE player's daddy. ?

 

[Theroadtobeerleague]

13 hours ago, champeen said:

There are approximately 150 NCAA D1 & D3 programs in the United States.  Why do people seem to think there should only be like 20 AAA teams and if you aren't playing teams in the top 10 you are a sham?  Very good players will and do come out of these "joke" programs.

There are 150, huh?  Roster of 25, thats 3,750 players playing college hockey, spread out over 7-8 birth years, since many go to juniors first.  Almost all D3 players are 21-24 years old.  

As an example, let’s take all of the teams in current “AAA” at U18, U16, U15, and U14.  400+ teams of 20. Add in the Canadians who will make up a big portion of college rosters, and don’t forget NE Prep and MM high school kids who don’t all play AAA but end up playing in college.  Easily 10,000 players spread out over 6 birth years, for 3,750 spots spread out over the same for college hockey. So the math bears it out: 95% of kids playing AAA hockey ****on teams ranked outside of the top 20 teams**** are a long-shot for D1 or D3 hockey.  It’s no knock on them for playing what is essentially is high-level AA hockey, but the reality is that it’s never going to lead to anywhere.  
 

ask your friends who have kids born in 2000, 2001, or 2002 and played AAA hockey on a team ranked outside of the top 20 and they will tell you that their kid is either playing college club hockey or not at all. 
this is my opinion.  I have never had a kid play AAA hockey because it would be a waste of time and money. 

[dropthepuck]

Waste of time and money is in the eye of the beholder. If a player has the desire to compete at the highest level possible for their skill level and family members enjoy the experience it is definitely worth it. 

[Saucey]

7 hours ago, Theroadtobeerleague said:

There are 150, huh?  Roster of 25, thats 3,750 players playing college hockey, spread out over 7-8 birth years, since many go to juniors first.  Almost all D3 players are 21-24 years old.  

As an example, let’s take all of the teams in current “AAA” at U18, U16, U15, and U14.  400+ teams of 20. Add in the Canadians who will make up a big portion of college rosters, and don’t forget NE Prep and MM high school kids who don’t all play AAA but end up playing in college.  Easily 10,000 players spread out over 6 birth years, for 3,750 spots spread out over the same for college hockey. So the math bears it out: 95% of kids playing AAA hockey ****on teams ranked outside of the top 20 teams**** are a long-shot for D1 or D3 hockey.  It’s no knock on them for playing what is essentially is high-level AA hockey, but the reality is that it’s never going to lead to anywhere.  
 

ask your friends who have kids born in 2000, 2001, or 2002 and played AAA hockey on a team ranked outside of the top 20 and they will tell you that their kid is either playing college club hockey or not at all. 
this is my opinion.  I have never had a kid play AAA hockey because it would be a waste of time and money. 

This. People playing in these AAA teams will tell you that they are doing it because of the superior coaching, more ice time blah blah blah. What dropthepuck just said. But then when it becomes clear that their kid isn't going anywhere....their kid either quits hockey entirely or wanders back to AA. Totally doing it because they think their kid is going somewhere. Or they say they didn't want to crush their kid's dreams. Suddenly, when they return, it's ok 'just to play for fun.' Shoot, it was always ok to just play for fun. This scenario plays out over and over. Everyone wants to think their kid is special.

Many kids will say when they are little that they want to play in the NFL or NHL. I never told my kid he couldn't go pro when he was ten expressing this. I never 'crushed his dreams'  by telling him no directly. (A frequent complaint expressed on this board by the coaches expressing frustration when they can't talk a parent of a kid they are trying to recruit to their 'AAA' program.) But I also know the facts and didn't go chasing down these things. He didn't know about faux AAA teams. We just didn't go there with him. He missed out on nothing. And then when he hit high school he figured it out on his own. Summer leagues, etc when he would see some of these 'AAA' players. See the rankings. He has actually told us thank you for not getting caught up in that. He doesn't want to travel to Texas, etc to play these crazy tournaments. He isn't bitter thinking we stomped on his dreams.

There is so much you have to have to make college or the NHL. Natural athlete. Work ethic and drive. Luck. Connections. Money. People whose kid never made a AA team in PAHL go on these AAA teams. That's just crazy to me. They just don't want to listen to people who may know something. 'Don't tell my kid he can't do it.' Ok, have fun. 

My kid can also go play club hockey somewhere if he wants while playing PAHL and school hockey.

And we are amused by the return of all the players who left PAHL at peewee or whatever, tired of spending the money and time now that it is clear their kid is not going to be playing D1 or D3. So yeah, it wasn't about the coaching or dry land training or whatever we heard when they left.

In our market, parents drive what is good for development. But most of them don't know squat about hockey or the makeup of hockey in our area.  We have BY teams not because people who know hockey think this is a good way to develop players around here. We have it because someone sold it to parents not wanting to disappoint their kids. They sold it because they want their kid playing on a high level team.  Or to hand pick players. Or to make mioney for themselves. Or because they think their kid is going D1 if they do this. And slowly, it became hard to attract people to your program if you don't offer it. Almost all the big programs offer a 'AAA' and BY option. Because parents demand it.

When youth sports became all about elite options, adults screwed up sports for kids. Big time. The biggest loss to me is the kid who quits playing. He or she lost their love of the game, because playing was all tied up with making it. Or got burned out. Anything below that AAA option is not worth playing. Why?

Sports are important. They teach important life lessons where the worst thing that can happen to you as you are learning these lessons is a lost game. Friendships that last a lifetime. Learn to compete. Work.  Discipline. Good sportsmanship. How to fail. How to win. Tie it all up with being 'elite' and I think kids and the sport suffer.

This sport is already so expensive. It keeps getting more expensive. The sacrifices asked from families are high. You drive people into this other level of hockey that requires even more money and time, on a false premise....that is good how?

You connect success in sports to a scholarship or whatever, when that doesn't happen and the kid exits the sport entirely....you missed what is valuable about playing sports in the first place.

I'm glad to see those kids return if they do. But boy, it would have been nice to continue playing with them all along. So when I hear...why do you care where I spend money and play...I care because the system as a whole suffers when adults overreach. My kid may have had better competition where he plays, without being told you can find that if you come play all over the US. (And not true when many of these teams lose A LOT.) High school hockey could be a higher level of compete. I don't think these 'AAA'  programs help hockey in Western Pa. Those promises that coach made to you and your kid....they don't materialize.

[forbin]

Nice Post @Saucey. A lot of good points. I really appreciate this board when we can have thoughtful and intelligent conversation about the sport.

While I agree with a lot what you said about the level of competition locally and people leaving for AAA for ice time and coaching, I will bring up one thing. I have family members whos daughters are heavily involved in extremely competitive dance and cheerleading where they travel across the country for competitions and showcases etc. They all know there is virtually zero opportunity for a professional avenue after the girls are 18 to pursue their passion of dance or cheerleading, but they still dump the time and money into because it is what their kids are passionate about right now. They have the type of girls that would be bored dancing locally or cheering for their HS football team.

Every kid is different. Some kids, like your son don't want all the extra stuff that comes along with 'AAA' hockey and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. I have a son who is the exact same way. He's happiest playing house league honestly. Some kids, however DO want to travel to MN or TX for tournaments even if its just when they are 12-16 years old. My youngest has that mentality right now. He wants to skate every day, he wants to play at the highest level he can. Will that change as he gets older? Maybe, maybe not but I will facilitate whatever I can to make him happy. 

 

[hockeyisgreat]

I guess the question for you Forbin is if your son doesn't make Pens Elite would you let him tryout for some other AAA team? Seems that a lot of people here believe the only AAA team worth playing for is PPE?  What's the difference in cost between AAA and AA anyway?  Does anybody have a good estimate?

[forbin]

29 minutes ago, hockeyisgreat said:

I guess the question for you Forbin is if your son doesn't make Pens Elite would you let him tryout for some other AAA team? Seems that a lot of people here believe the only AAA team worth playing for is PPE?  What's the difference in cost between AAA and AA anyway?  Does anybody have a good estimate?

I had exposure at PPE (lil 66ers) with my oldest and it was not a good experience for my family. I was not a fan of their style. Different strokes for different folks. I wont go into details. That being said I have really have no idea what else is out there for 'AAA' at the squirt and peewee level. We will most likely stay in PAHL and continue to do lessons and extra training stuff on our own. Worry about the extra A when he's a bantam.

But to answer your question, yes I would explore the other 'AAA' clubs. I actually like the SCIR hybrid model of playing a PAHL AA schedule and independent AA/AAA games. The problem with that is we are very far from Alpha.

I think the biggest cost difference is travel expenses and tournament fees. 

[hockeyisgreat]

Thanks for the reply. Sounds like you have a good game plan for the future. Is your oldest still playing? North Pittsburgh seems to have some very strong AA teams. Their 06 BY team is on top of the PAHL standings. Seems that 06BY is particularly strong in the PAHL this year with NP Allegheny and Renegades leading the pack.

[nemesis8679]

So, since it's inception, how many players from PPE have played a game in the NHL? 

[Wes]

12 minutes ago, nemesis8679 said:

So, since it's inception, how many players from PPE have played a game in the NHL? 

none that I am aware of.

[Spear and Magic Helmet]

1 hour ago, nemesis8679 said:

So, since it's inception, how many players from PPE have played a game in the NHL? 

Are you counting the Pittsburgh Hornets as part of this, or just PPE (i.e. 2012 to present)?